Ukraine Conflict - Continues

[xzar_monty]

9 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Its taken a long time for the EU to understand  and accept the risk Putin represents but the invasion of Ukraine has changed that. Better late than never

Ahem. What about South Africa, then?

[BruceVC]

33 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Ahem. What about South Africa, then?

Agreed, the ANC is  completely inconsistent with our value system when it comes to several foreign policy decisions. And  I have raised this several times 

One example, our uninformed minister of foreign affairs keeps saying " we are neutral and Russia helped us achieve independence from Apartheid and they our friends  " but it wasnt Russia who helped end Apartheid. It was the USSR and it was during the Cold War. But Ukraine was also part of the USSR, so why arent we criticizing the invasion because by her understanding of " friends " Ukraine is also our friend

But the ANC ideological inconsistency gets criticized all the time in SA  

 

[xzar_monty]

Fair enough.

Concerning the aid of the USSR in the apartheid question: How did the USSR help? Also, was it a significant player, especially in comparison to other foreign powers? Apologies for my ignorance on the question.

[Zoraptor]

It isn't really appreciation for Russia that informs RSA's position, it's that the ANC really doesn't like the west at all because while we may have been quite loud shouting how reprehensible apartheid was we were busy supporting them, practically, because at least they weren't red. Hence their regime only collapsing once the Cold War was over and they weren't needed any more.

Plus really petty crap like Mandela being on a US terrorist watch list until, lol, 2008.

As for Bruce... well, maybe majestic will grace you with his Bruce.txt if you ask nicely. Suffice it to say that the only thing Bruce has ever approved of the ANC doing was Cyril Ramaphosa- now President- ordering the police to machine gun strikers at a mine he owned. That, Bruce loved.

[BruceVC]

44 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Fair enough.

Concerning the aid of the USSR in the apartheid question: How did the USSR help? Also, was it a significant player, especially in comparison to other foreign powers? Apologies for my ignorance on the question.

No its a good question. Africa was a proxy war in clash between the West and Communism and it manifested in different ways in different countries. But from the mid 1960s there were only  5-6 countries that still had either white minority rule or were still colonies like the 3 Portuguese countries

So in the case of Rhodesia, SA or Namibia the USSR and Red China  helped train liberation movements like the ANC military wing, SWAPO and ZANU-PF 

So they helped with military training and resources in the armed struggle aspect of ending Apartheid

But Apartheid of course ended through a political solution and not a military one 

 

[BruceVC]

8 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

It isn't really appreciation for Russia that informs RSA's position, it's that the ANC really doesn't like the west at all because while we may have been quite loud shouting how reprehensible apartheid was we were busy supporting them, practically, because at least they weren't red. Hence their regime only collapsing once the Cold War was over and they weren't needed any more.

Plus really petty crap like Mandela being on a US terrorist watch list until, lol, 2008.

As for Bruce... well, maybe majestic will grace you with his Bruce.txt if you ask nicely. Suffice it to say that the only thing Bruce has ever approved of the ANC doing was Cyril Ramaphosa- now President- ordering the police to machine gun strikers at a mine he owned. That, Bruce loved.

As  as usual your views are inaccurate about what I believe or has  actually occurred in SA

I support the ANC in many ways but not recent foreign policy  and I have even voted for them. Cyril didn't order the police to use force in Marikana. All he correctly said was a 3 month strike must end but he didnt have authority to order them to use lethal force. And he didnt own the mine 

But nice trolling 

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by BruceVC

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

I support the ANC in many ways

Like what ?

  

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Agreed, the ANC is  completely inconsistent with our value system when it comes to several foreign policy decisions. And  I have raised this several times 

One example, our uninformed minister of foreign affairs keeps saying " we are neutral and Russia helped us achieve independence from Apartheid and they our friends  " but it wasnt Russia who helped end Apartheid. It was the USSR and it was during the Cold War. But Ukraine was also part of the USSR, so why arent we criticizing the invasion because by her understanding of " friends " Ukraine is also our friend

But the ANC ideological inconsistency gets criticized all the time in SA  

 

Well if Russia and Ukraine are both getting credit for the USSR's deeds, RSA should be neutral - other than added factor of it being a far off war as well.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Malcador

[xzar_monty]

49 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

It isn't really appreciation for Russia that informs RSA's position, it's that the ANC really doesn't like the west at all because while we may have been quite loud shouting how reprehensible apartheid was we were busy supporting them, practically, because at least they weren't red. Hence their regime only collapsing once the Cold War was over and they weren't needed any more.

I don't know if these should be properly labelled as historical ironies, but they can be ugly and cringeworthy indeed. I mean, I'm sure I don't have to tell you anything about the extent to which it was the west that nourished radical Islam and all that, up to and including Bin Laden. I suppose a position of moral superiority can only be attributed to a country that has been so insignificant that it hasn't been able to participate in any truly atrocious actions -- but it would have, had it been able to. So.

History is ugly. Here's a claim that I think is almost certainly true: Adolf Hitler's anti-semitism saved the world. If it hadn't been for that, the nazis would've had the bomb in 1942-1943 and that would have meant kaboom; just look at who were involved in the Manhattan Project and where they came from. (Interestingly, Einstein pointed this out already in the 1930s -- not the bomb thing but the fact that Hitler is doing himself an enormous disservice by forcing Jewish scientists into exile.)

[BruceVC]

6 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Like what ?

I have always supported them in several things since 1994. These include 

• the role they played during Codesa and the negotiations to create the new SA
• they respect the Constitution and the rule of law and order
• they are committed to ending corruption and transforming the economy
• they dont support radical left policies like the EFF
• they believe in partnerships between the private sector and public sector
• they recognize the importance of a free media 
• they believe in an independent judiciary 

I can  go on and on but I dont support many of there foreign policy decisions and positions they take 

 

[BruceVC]

I cant get enough of this Russian outrage and as the tweet says " Putin is a master strategist who pushed a neutral country into joining NATO " 

[Chilloutman]

[Gfted1]

I wouldnt want to be a tanker in WW III. Lifespan measured in hours or days.

[Malcador]

11 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

I wouldnt want to be a tanker in WW III. Lifespan measured in hours or days.

Might not be so bad if you're in a Western tank, have all that shiny armour and APS. 

[kanisatha]

30 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

I wouldnt want to be a tanker in WW III. Lifespan measured in hours or days.

That was supposedly the slogan written on the messhall wall of the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment ("Blackhorse") standing watch at the Fulda Gap in West Germany during the Cold War:

Average lifespan of a Blackhorse cavalryman in WWIII: 45 seconds

[Azdeus]

2 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

I wouldnt want to be a tanker in WW III. Lifespan measured in hours or days.

I very much doubt the footsloggers will survive much longer.

[Gfted1]

2 hours ago, Malcador said:

Might not be so bad if you're in a Western tank, have all that shiny armour and APS. 

The near future is going to be very interesting as drones become smaller and more swarm coordinated. I love the Trophy system (Trophy (countermeasure) - Wikipedia) for conventional AT weapons, but something like the Stryker Leonidas (Stryker Leonidas – General Dynamics Land Systems (gdls.com)) will need to be incorporated into armored brigades to handle the drones. Imo, lasers arent the answer. Maybe for ballistic/supersonic/cruise missiles, but not for drone swarms.

[Azdeus]

5 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

The near future is going to be very interesting as drones become smaller and more swarm coordinated. I love the Trophy system (Trophy (countermeasure) - Wikipedia) for conventional AT weapons, but something like the Stryker Leonidas (Stryker Leonidas – General Dynamics Land Systems (gdls.com)) will need to be incorporated into armored brigades to handle the drones. Imo, lasers arent the answer. Maybe for ballistic/supersonic/cruise missiles, but not for drone swarms.

 

If someone were to put some effort into developing it, Slaughterbots are quite feasible, atleast according to the Swiss Drones and Robotics Center.

[xzar_monty]

This interview might be of interest to some:

https://dossier.center/fso-en/

[BruceVC]

21 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

This interview might be of interest to some:

https://dossier.center/fso-en/

That is one of the most interesting reads I have seen about Putin and the inner workings of his private life

Interesting he didnt tell his parents when he left but what insight. And very candid, if he doesnt know something he says " I dont know " 

He also believes Putin isnt expecially  sick but the isolationism and  paranoia is real

 

[BruceVC]

https://minfin.gov.ru/ru/press-center/?id_4=38438-o_neftegazovykh_dokhodakh_i_provedenii_operatsii_po_pokupkeprodazhe_inostrannoi_valyuty_na_vnutrennem_valyutnom_rynke

Latest Russian ministry financial report, they've earned  39 billion Rubles less   of oil and gas revenues in March  than was predicted in the budget.

And from April 7th until early May they'll be dumping 3,7 billion of foreign currency every day to prevent the deficit from skyrocketing.

[pmp10]

Zelensky visited Warsaw today.
Besides the usual talking points and a minor arms 'contract' there was one interesting statement made by Polish president:

Quote

There is no question of any negotiation over the heads of Ukrainians.

There has been speculation that Ukraine will try to resist freezing of the war and this is the first move in gathering political support.

[BruceVC]

https://silk-news.com/2023/04/05/world/chinas-ambassador-to-the-e-u-tries-to-distance-beijing-from-moscow/

Interesting interview from the Chinese ambassador to the EU, originally from the NY times. To quote 

Just three weeks before Russia invaded Ukraine Presidents Vladimir V. Putin and Xi Jinping signed a joint statement declaring “no limits” to their countries’ friendship. But Mr. Fu said China was not on Russia’s side on the war and that some people “deliberately misinterpret this because there’s the so-called ‘no limit’ friendship or relationship.”

He added, “‘No limit’ is nothing but rhetoric.”

Mr. Fu said that China had not provided military assistance to Russia, nor recognized its efforts to annex Ukrainian territories, including Crimea and the Donbas.

 

 

[pmp10]

A few diplomatic hints as to what may lay ahead in the future:

Ukraine is not about to get any plans for NATO membership

But is dropping hints it might discuss the status of Crimea 

Now we see if Russia responds in some way. 

[HoonDing]

Those ex-convicts with shovels are holding up amazingly well against the Spring Offensive®

[Malcador]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/06/us/politics/ukraine-war-plan-russia.html

Leaky Americans, tsk.