Ukraine Conflict - Continues

[Malcador]

54 minutes ago, Gorth said:

I'm fairly sure the Tricolore predates the Russian flag by more than a century... I don't remember the details, but I think the Russian flag used to have a lot of yellow in when it was The Russian Empire, like yellow with a black Czarist/Imperial Eagle on it

Yes, remarkable I am seeing people not noticing that a French company with V in its name would do something like this.  The black, white and yellow one is from Imperial Russia, which I think some cranks still fly

Edited March 7, 2023 by Malcador

[Gorth]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

Yes, remarkable I am seeing people not noticing that a French company with V in its name would do something like this.  The black, white and yellow one is from Imperial Russia, which I think some cranks still fly

The one I was thinking about (from around 1850)...

The Tricolore dates back to 1794 or thereabouts.

So yeah, I suspect someone got a bit too sensitive and started looking for patterns where none are (or none are put intentionally in place).

 

Edit: Doesn't mean that there couldn't be more behind the story than just a French company using French colours. Sometimes there is more behind a story than obvious click bait.

I just remembered the yellow Russian flags from history books featuring paintings of battles from the Napoleonic wars. Iirc it kept the yellow colours with various combinations of white and black added to it up until 1917 after which it was mostly red. Disclaimer: Sometimes battle standards are different from national flags (e.g. the Confederate States of America)

[xzar_monty]

6 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Ah yes. You can tell people who are deeply committed to western liberal values, democracy, freedom of speech etc and are implacably opposed to extremist ideologies like nazism immediately by... their desire to fire people they disagree with into the sun. Ho hum.

I was about to make the same point myself. Some of the terminology has been unfortunate indeed. Wanting to fire people into the sun or calling for them to be thrown into the trash doesn't actually differentiate you from the very people you are talking about. So I would be more careful, surely.

This phenomenon, by the way, is nicely exemplified by the current polarization in the US politics. There is little if any interest in trying to reach any kind of consensus, and there isn't much proper debate to speak of, there's just vitriol on both sides. And the interesting thing about that is that both sides appear identical in their unbridled hatred towards the other. If I were there and had to vote, I would vote for Democrats, but many of them look just as infantile and rage-engorged as many of the Republicans. There's just no difference. This is very sad.

Edited March 7, 2023 by xzar_monty

[Lexx]

48 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

There is little if any interest in trying to reach any kind of consensus

Bro, I would agree with you if it were possible to talk to the other side. It was tried, for years, and now I'm very tired of it. As I said earlier, you give a little finger, they take the whole hand. So at this point, yeah, into the sun they go. Also I'm not even talking about americans, this is a problem around here as well.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Lexx

[xzar_monty]

1 minute ago, Lexx said:

Bro, I would agree with you if it were possible to talk to the other side, but they clearly don't have our best interest on their mind. As I said earlier, you give a little finger, they take the whole hand. So at this point, yeah, into the sun they go. Also I'm not even talking about americans, this is a problem around here as well.

There are a few questions here.

1) It is indeed true that it is not possible to talk constructively with some people, conspiracy theorists being an excellent example. Whatever you say to a paranoid person can and will be interpreted in such a way as to reinforce the paranoia. I don't know of any good solution to this.

2) From the fact that it's not possible to talk the other side, it does not follow that "into the sun they go". This kind of thinking is itself problematic and quite naive, too, in my opinion. Interestingly, this kind of either-or approach seems to be very common, but it's quite often just bad thinking.

3) When you think that you are perfectly in the right about a certain group of people, it is good to keep in mind that that group of people almost certainly thinks they are perfectly in the right about you or the world-view you represent. That's a bit of a problem, isn't it? Not much chance of things changing with that kind of thinking.

4) Martin Luther King's approach in the American South provides a good example of what can be done even in the direst of circumstances. And yes, I know how it ended with him. I am no orator nor much of a peace-maker, but there's an inspiring example of how to meet someone you regard as your enemy. Nelson Mandela might be another, simply in the sense that there have actually been people who have not resorted to vitriol and have consequently managed to accomplish some rather good things.

[Sarex]

13 minutes ago, Gorth said:

A slow news day when the only occurrence of the word Ukraine on the BBC front page is in an article on rehabilitation of wounded soldiers and Al Jazeeras main story is the growing love affair between Russia and China.

Strange considering so much is happening right now.

[Zoraptor]

5 hours ago, Malcador said:

The black, white and yellow one is from Imperial Russia, which I think some cranks still fly

LDPR types love the Imperial Flag. So yeah, can't get much more crank-y.

Which is ironic, because their own party's flag makes them look like Ukrainian larpers.

 

[Chilloutman]

14 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Would have thought the POW getting executed would have been all over the news.

https://www.idnes.cz/zpravy/zahranicni/valka-na-ukrajine-poprava-zajatce-tymofij-sadura-bachmut.A230307_131251_zahranicni_tbr

[Malcador]

8 hours ago, Gorth said:

The one I was thinking about (from around 1850)...

The Tricolore dates back to 1794 or thereabouts.

So yeah, I suspect someone got a bit too sensitive and started looking for patterns where none are (or none are put intentionally in place).

 

Edit: Doesn't mean that there couldn't be more behind the story than just a French company using French colours. Sometimes there is more behind a story than obvious click bait.

I just remembered the yellow Russian flags from history books featuring paintings of battles from the Napoleonic wars. Iirc it kept the yellow colours with various combinations of white and black added to it up until 1917 after which it was mostly red. Disclaimer: Sometimes battle standards are different from national flags (e.g. the Confederate States of America)

Ah yes. Reminds me to go back to my EU4 game and annex Kiev.

[Malcador]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/us/politics/nord-stream-pipeline-sabotage-ukraine.html

A new twist to things, although sketchy.

Another article related in German -https://www.zeit.de/zustimmung?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zeit.de%2Fpolitik%2Fausland%2F2023-03%2Fnordstream-2-ukraine-anschlag

Must be a raised eyebrow in Germany.

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Malcador

[Mamoulian War]

15 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

I was about to make the same point myself. Some of the terminology has been unfortunate indeed. Wanting to fire people into the sun or calling for them to be thrown into the trash doesn't actually differentiate you from the very people you are talking about. So I would be more careful, surely.

This phenomenon, by the way, is nicely exemplified by the current polarization in the US politics. There is little if any interest in trying to reach any kind of consensus, and there isn't much proper debate to speak of, there's just vitriol on both sides. And the interesting thing about that is that both sides appear identical in their unbridled hatred towards the other. If I were there and had to vote, I would vote for Democrats, but many of them look just as infantile and rage-engorged as many of the Republicans. There's just no difference. This is very sad.

I do not consider people openly advocating for Ukrainian genocide as people having different oppinion, nor do I consider people oplenly advocating for holocaust or calling all muslims ISIS, as people having different oppinion. They are the scum, and should be dealt with accordingly. And I can’t imagine any circumstances, under which I would ever be interested in any discussion with such people.

Of course shooting them into the Sun is meant as a rhetoric hyperbole.

Oh @Lexx, if you consider central EU countries as the West as well  , some of us have problems with left-wing extreminsts, and it’s not “them pronouns folks”, they are people like Blaha, who preaches Marxism-Leninism everywhere he walks, while endorsing his fans ideas to gang rape our president and journalists

[Gorth]

Guys... lets move the general politics discussion to the general politics thread...

(going to move some posts)

Edit: I think the bulk of stuff not related to Ukraine and/or Russia is moved to the politics thread now

[xzar_monty]

In the first 15 seconds of this video, Lavrov does a pretty good sit-down comedy routine, and the audience laughs appropriately.

 

[Malcador]

5 hours ago, Gorth said:

Guys... lets move the general politics discussion to the general politics thread...

(going to move some posts)

Edit: I think the bulk of stuff not related to Ukraine and/or Russia is moved to the politics thread now

I dunno that stuff was more interesting than this thread usually is

[Sarex]

11 minutes ago, Malcador said:

I dunno that stuff was more interesting than this thread usually is

Not a high bar sadly.

[Malcador]

12 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Not a high bar sadly.

We're not quite yet to r/UkrainianConflict level of crap, at least

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

4 minutes ago, Malcador said:

We're not quite yet to r/UkrainianConflict level of crap, at least

Be the change you want to see.

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

Be the change you want to see.

Suicide it is then

[xzar_monty]

Not very pleasant stuff, this, in terms of freedom and so on.

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-blogger-ivanov-ukraine-war-amnesty-prisoner-conscience/32308788.html

[Lexx]

8 1/2 years is pretty crazy. There's murderers who get less time.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

Not very pleasant stuff, this, in terms of freedom and so on.

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-blogger-ivanov-ukraine-war-amnesty-prisoner-conscience/32308788.html

Its absolutely appalling but what do we expect from the  authoritarian and dystopian reality that Putin has created 

And people on Codex argue that Putin is simply trying to  " preserve white Christian culture " and doing " Gods work " 

 

[Lexx]

On 3/7/2023 at 4:48 PM, Malcador said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/us/politics/nord-stream-pipeline-sabotage-ukraine.html

A new twist to things, although sketchy.

Another article related in German -https://www.zeit.de/zustimmung?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zeit.de%2Fpolitik%2Fausland%2F2023-03%2Fnordstream-2-ukraine-anschlag

Must be a raised eyebrow in Germany.

 

Looks like that story is quickly falling apart now. Stuff doesn't add up, it's also suspicious that the boat was returned, not cleaned, and they apparently found explosive residue on a table inside. How convenient.

Oh, and apparently that big sailing(?) boat was docked in a harbor with only like 1m of water depth.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Lexx

[Sarex]

Wait are we supposed to believe anything the US/Company has to say. According to them at first it was the Russians who did it.

[Malcador]

5 hours ago, Lexx said:

Looks like that story is quickly falling apart now. Stuff doesn't add up, it's also suspicious that the boat was returned, not cleaned, and they apparently found explosive residue on a table inside. How convenient.

Oh, and apparently that big sailing(?) boat was docked in a harbor with only like 1m of water depth.

As I said is sketch, not seeing anything new on it other than Western folk denying it and saying it's obviously Russians, etc.  But incompetence isn't all that uncommon, theory is these aren't government agents after all.  Read someone denying it as "if it were pro-Ukrainian it would have be done without these flaws", because I guess the side you're pulling for provides some innate competency.

Guess we should wait for Sweden's report, though.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Malcador

[Mamoulian War]

Hehe, even Lavrov has stated, that the Ukrainian lead to Nordstream sabotage is bull****

https://t.me/bbbreaking/150102

 

Puting the tinfoil hat up, this resembles typical Russian psyop, to blame the western media as incompetent liars, in the case that someone finds out, that the sabotage was really the work of Russia