Ukraine Conflict - "Politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed"

[BruceVC]

5 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

That's true, and coming from them, it's part of propaganda-related tactics.

From Musk, though, it's improper in the extreme, not that he'd (likely) understand it or give a damn, even if he did understand. It's something of the equivalent of Madonna coming along and presenting to the world an in-her-opinion really smashing and boy-it's-gonna-work treatment schedule for Michael Schumacher. The relatives would want her to just go and look a double-barreled one in the eye. (Madonna wouldn't do any such thing, btw.)

There's a school of thought that simple human decency is an old-fashioned and needless concept, but I'd argue that it's not.

But Musk is not trolling, he is sharing his opinion on a solution to end the war

Its not great  or convincing but its sincere and has some thought to it. Either way he is not trolling. You can disagree with him but lets criticize the suggestions rather than making it about a personal attack on him which seems to miss the point of a debate?

[Malcador]

We're still waiting for Ja's peace plan.

[pmp10]

1 hour ago, Elerond said:

Both Ukraine and Russia are able to lose 300k men if they are willing. 

I don't think we are in the 'good old days' just yet.
For all the shouting and rhetoric I think few in Moscow or Kiev think that owning Kherson is for them existential. 

[Gfted1]

[xzar_monty]

19 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

But Musk is not trolling, he is sharing his opinion on a solution to end the war

In the Sandman comic, one of the characters says to another, "If you ever want to speak again... shut up."

It seems to me that you are completely unaware of or ignoring the severity of the situation, the relevance of sharing one's opinion and the position Musk is in. We, on this forum, are essentially anonymous usernames engaged in a debate that has no consequences, so sharing one's opinion here is perfectly all right. It's like a group of people making noise in a pub. Elon Musk is nothing like that, and the only things his suggestion demonstrate relate to his lack of human decency and sense of proportion. His opinion is completely uncalled for, he has no qualifications, no knowledge, nothing. Essentially all similar figures have understood that it's not their place to present detailed proposals for peace negotiations, but Musk has reached such a level of twáttiness that he is unable to understand this.

I would suggest that Musk heed that Sandman character.

[Malcador]

It's funny though, if Musk gave some Massaro-esque peace plan, no one would mind

[xzar_monty]

Is the Kherson front really collapsing, is Russia really having a day as bad as that? Fingers crossed!

[Malcador]

7 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Is the Kherson front really collapsing, is Russia really having a day as bad as that? Fingers crossed!

Haven't heard much of a collapse. MSNBC was jerking it over gains in Kherson, though, so who knows.

[xzar_monty]

Let us not get ahead of ourselves, but there are some rather peculiar if not altogether proven signs out there.

 

[Chilloutman]

https://www.thetimes.com.ng/2022/09/the-czechs-mock-russia-we-have-a-unique-opportunity-to-expand-our-territory-the-petition-was-created-world-news-more-news/

[HoonDing]

Russia and China made Musk rich, why would he turn on his masters

[xzar_monty]

50 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

Russia and China made Musk rich, why would he turn on his masters

That's just so poor. Come on. I'm not sure where you're coming from, but the relationship between wealth and slavery doesn't work like that.

 

EDIT: Apparently, about 700 000 people have left Russia since the mobilization began. The number of permanent departures cannot be determined (sort of obviously...).

https://www.forbes.ru/society/478827-rossiu-posle-21-sentabra-pokinuli-okolo-700-000-grazdan

Edited October 4, 2022 by xzar_monty

[Mamoulian War]

1 hour ago, Chilloutman said:

https://www.thetimes.com.ng/2022/09/the-czechs-mock-russia-we-have-a-unique-opportunity-to-expand-our-territory-the-petition-was-created-world-news-more-news/

[HoonDing]

I hear China, Japan and Mongolia want some territory back too

[Malcador]

5 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

I hear China, Japan and Mongolia want some territory back too

After them, Silence.

[Mamoulian War]

3 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Let us not get ahead of ourselves, but there are some rather peculiar if not altogether proven signs out there.

 

Just arrived at home and noticed more of this on Deepstate map. Looks like in the South everything between Arkhangelske and the Ukrainian bridgehead along the Inhulets river, has been liberated after Russian retreat. Also, in the East, the Kupyansk bridgehead has connected with the frontline along the Oskil reservoir/river.

Pretty big achievement in last few days…

[Zoraptor]

7 hours ago, Mamoulian War said:

But Aljazeera was never considered as a pro-western media. 

They are in Syria, at least when it comes to Assad vs the west which is what that is. Due to Qatari FP if it's the west vs Turkey they pick Turkey- pretty much have to, since Turkey guaranteed their continued existence v/v Saudi Arabia- but also due to Qatari FP AJEnglish is pretty pro West in everything now that Afghanistan is settled. Apart from Israel/ Palestine and to an extent Saudi Arabia (/Yemen), though that's primarily anti Saudi rather than anti west.

AJA is anti west at least in rhetoric, but then that audience is inherently stridently anti west...

5 hours ago, Elerond said:

Both Ukraine and Russia are able to lose 300k men if they are willing. 

Ukraine has population over 41 million people and Russia has population of over 144 million people.

For example during WW2, Finland lost about 100k men from population of 3.3 million.

Soviet union lost over 27 million men from population of 170 million.

Finnish figures are probably a good guideline. More so for Ukraine than Russia, since they're fighting on their own ground.

Soviet figures include around 18 million civilian deaths as well as ~9 million military, the only way you could get the equivalent numbers in Ukraine would be if nukes were used- and pretty indiscriminately since that would require killing ~everyone in Kiev/ Dnipro'/ Zaporizhe and Ukraine to have 2 million men under arms to kill.

I'd bet that both would need weighting for demographics as well. 1940s populations were typically a lot younger on average than now so could stand higher losses, and Ukraine especially has had a pretty significant demographic collapse post USSR.

[Mamoulian War]

Well Al-Jazeera offers sometimes an alternate view (not meant as a derogatory term this time) on some news. So I check their news sometimes as well. 
 

In other news different sources says that since the announcement of mobilization 600k - 1m people left Russia.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/10/4/7370341/

[Lexx]

Heh, while we were talking about Musk. https://archive.ph/jKnck

"U.S. quietly paying millions to send Starlink terminals to Ukraine, contrary to SpaceX claims"

So much to Musk donating this.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Lexx

[Malcador]

Nothing's ever free.

[xzar_monty]

32 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Nothing's ever free.

Sorry for having no sense of humor, but an awful lot of the best stuff is. Ukraine has received huge amounts of support for free. Some of it from me, even, although of course not a lot.

 

EDIT: Hmm. Apparently Iran does not recognize Russia's annexation of those four Ukrainian territories. Haven't seen this one from any really credible source. I wonder if it's true.

Edited October 4, 2022 by xzar_monty

[Malcador]

15 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Sorry for having no sense of humor, but an awful lot of the best stuff is. Ukraine has received huge amounts of support for free. Some of it from me, even, although of course not a lot.

 

EDIT: Hmm. Apparently Iran does not recognize Russia's annexation of those four Ukrainian territories. Haven't seen this one from any really credible source. I wonder if it's true.

Still of the mind some of that will have to be repaid, somehow.  As for Iran, probably not all that meaningful at least for the drones - I forget what the consensus is though, they were plagued with problems but also something we must save Ukraine from, heh.

[xzar_monty]

4 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Still of the mind some of that will have to be repaid, somehow.  As for Iran, probably not all that meaningful at least for the drones - I forget what the consensus is though, they were plagued with problems but also something we must save Ukraine from, heh.

But even that is a world away from "Nothing's ever free".

If the news on Iran is true, it is interesting in the sense that it demonstrates Russia's dearth of allies. Not particularly massive in any other sense, though.

[Malcador]

36 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

But even that is a world away from "Nothing's ever free".

If the news on Iran is true, it is interesting in the sense that it demonstrates Russia's dearth of allies. Not particularly massive in any other sense, though.

Not really, paying later and in a different way is still paying.  We'll see, maybe the fanciful righteous talk is real, hah. 

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/arms-factory-explosion-bulgaria-kills-leaves-missing-90985086

Obviously, Russia is behind this. Article 5!

[Zoraptor]

Countries not recognising annexation doesn't mean much at all when it comes to relations- see Israel and East Jerusalem/ Golan. Even after 4 years of Trump (and Biden not reversing the policy, so recognition is outright US policy now) the number of countries recognising either is, uh, not high at all. Indeed, even among those who are otherwise stridently pro Israel active condemnation was prevalent instead of just saying it wasn't recognised.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Zoraptor