I'm sorry, but I can't even finish reading all that whitewashing from Bruce up there. This handwaving just makes me angry. It's exactly what is enabling those people.

Edited July 15, 20223 yr by Lexx

10 minutes ago, Lexx said:

I'm sorry, but I can't even finish reading all that whitewashing from Bruce up there. This handwaving just makes me angry. It's exactly what is enabling those people.

Im not whitewashing anything or using whataboutism?

Im responding to your questions around how Trump supporters see the points your raised. I am not a Trump supporter as I mentioned but he could  be the US president in 2024 so its important to understand why people support him

At the very least you could read my post and disagree and explain why you disgaree....thats how debate works 

23 minutes ago, Chairchucker said:

Might just piggyback onto Lexx's point by reposting a previous partial list of Trump's actions leading up to being voted out:

 

Calling Mexican immigrants rapists and criminals.

Insulting a prisoner of war for having been captured

Implying a journalist attempting to do her job by asking probing questions was PMSing

Responding to an act of violence carried out by his supporters in his name not by condemning their actions, but by saying that the people following him are very passionate and love this country.

Mocking a reporter about his congenital joint condition

Saying a judge was unable to effectively do his job because of his Mexican heritage.

Bragging that his celebrity status enables him to sexually assault women.

Dismissing bragging about being able to sexually assault women as ‘locker room banter’.

Being the subject of at least 25 separate accusations of sexual misconduct.

Implying that some of his accusers were not attractive enough for him to sexually assault.

Perpetuating the lie that vaccines cause autism.

Asking a black reporter if they can set a meeting up with the Congressional Black Caucus, and if they were friends of hers.

Labelling any unflattering news story as ‘fake news’ and calling those media outlets ‘enemy of the American People’.

Barring those outlets from press conferences.

Implying that in a clash between actual Nazis and Klan members yelling slogans such as ‘Jews will not replace us’ and counter protesters, in which a white supremacist killed one person and injured 19 others with their vehicle, both sides are approximately morally equal, and later saying there were very fine people on both sides.

Calling athletes who peacefully protested against police brutality by kneeling during the national anthem 'sons of bitches' and suggesting they should be fired.

Implying that media outlets who publish what he characterises as ‘fake news’ might lose their media license.

Joking that his vice president wants to kill all gay people.

Sharing anti Muslim videos posted by a member of a hate group.

Suggesting that the USA should accept more refugees from places like Norway or Asia, rather than African nations.

Inspiring a white supremacist website to write that he is more or less on the same page as them with regards to race and immigration.

Suggesting it was treasonous not to applaud his speeches.

Using a school shooting as an opportunity to criticise FBI investigations into himself.

Saying that it was great that China’s president was now President for life, and suggesting that the USA should give that a shot someday.

Siding with the leader of a foreign nation over the leaders of his own intelligence agencies.

Mocking the testimony of a victim of sexual assault.

Praising a congressman for assaulting a reporter.

Suggesting that several congresswomen of colour who are American citizens, three of whom were born in the USA, should go back to their own country.

Repeatedly downplaying the dangers of a global pandemic.

Suggesting the use of untested drugs against the advice of medical professionals.

Withholding pandemic aid from states with governors that aren’t ‘grateful enough’.

Calling on protestors to violate lockdowns.

Publicly speculating about the possible effectiveness of eating or injecting disinfectant to fight a virus.

Suggesting he has been treated worse than presidents who were assassinated.

Calling a congresswoman ‘Shamu’ and suggesting that she visited every buffet restaurant in the state.

Suggesting that a 75 year old peace activist, hospitalised after being shoved by police officers, ‘could be an ANTIFA provocateur’.

Sharing a video of one of his supporters yelling ‘white power’.

Saying he might not accept the results of an election if he loses.

Sending well wishes to someone who was arrested on charges of aiding a sex offender.

Calling someone pathetic for accurately saying that a pandemic is widespread.

Suggesting that a police officer mistakenly using deadly force is similar to a golfer missing a putt.

Encouraging people to vote twice.

Refusing to commit to a peaceful transfer of power if he lost an election.

Ridiculing a political opponent for heeding the advice of scientists.

Saying that people who tried to run a campaign bus of his political rival off the road ‘did nothing wrong’.

Falsely declaring himself the winner of an election.

Falsely claiming that election fraud has been committed.

Urging a crowd at a rally to march to the capitol.

Telling the crowd, after they commit domestic terrorism by entering the capitol building, erecting a gallows with the apparent intent to hang his Vice President, entering senate chambers and looting several items, ‘We love you. You’re very special’.

Continuing, despite his words already having inspired a right wing terrorist attack on the capitol building, to utter the same rhetoric to cause that attack.

Trying to have his Vice President overturn the election.

And I dont disagree with some of these points, much of it is true 

7 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

And I dont disagree with some of these points, much of it is true 

'Much'? Which ones are you suggesting did not occur?

I am much more scared what is happening in EU and their ever so tightening authoritarianism and social engineering than anything that is going on in US

7 minutes ago, Chairchucker said:

'Much'? Which ones are you suggesting did not occur?

Im not going to ask you to provide a link for every point so I can confirm the context of what he said and what he meant

I dont want to spend that kind of time on this debate. I was being diplomatic when I said " much ". I remember much of what you posted  and he did say it 

But the reality of Trumps comments like you posted is he often had an answer and how things were taken out of context by the media. But the point is you right,  he did say those things 

 

4 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

I am much more scared what is happening in EU and their ever so tightening authoritarianism and social engineering than anything that is going on in US

What concerns you the most about the EU and its ostensible direction towards authoritarianism

We dont discuss enough about  real problems in the EU  so Im always interested in what concerns EU citizens ?

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Im not whitewashing anything or using whataboutism?

Im responding to your questions around how Trump supporters see the points your raised. I am not a Trump supporter as I mentioned but he could  be the US president in 2024 so its important to understand why people support him

At the very least you could read my post and disagree and explain why you disgaree....thats how debate works 

I'm pretty sure I didn't ask why Trump supporters see him the way they do. In fact, I know the answer for that -- they are dumb as a bag of toast and don't even know it. Besides, my original post wasn't about Trump at all. Even without Trump, america is heading in a direction that's very worrying (for the rest of the world at least. Clearly 50% of america don't mind).

If he becomes president again in 2024, all hope for america is lost.

41 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

What concerns you the most about the EU and its ostensible direction towards authoritarianism

We dont discuss enough about  real problems in the EU  so Im always interested in what concerns EU citizens ?

Its a long list i guess, and I am not keen on doing wall of text but few examples (which might seem insignificant but are not for me)

ban on petrol cars

required driving assistants in cars (including speed limit imposer)

energy market requirements

and it goes on and on

43 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Im not going to ask you to provide a link for every point so I can confirm the context of what he said and what he meant

I dont want to spend that kind of time on this debate. I was being diplomatic when I said " much ". I remember much of what you posted  and he did say it 

But the reality of Trumps comments like you posted is he often had an answer and how things were taken out of context by the media. But the point is you right,  he did say those things 

 

Yeah, I do seem to remember him occasionally saying that things were taken out of context, but I honestly can't remember any examples where he provided context that justified what he'd said or done. Personally, his record does not inspire me to give him the benefit of the doubt that such context exists. I think the more likely scenario, given everything he's consistently shown about who he is, is that every time he says or does something awful, it's because he's an awful person who says and does awful things.

15 minutes ago, Lexx said:

I'm pretty sure I didn't ask why Trump supporters see him the way they do. In fact, I know the answer for that -- they are dumb as a bag of toast and don't even know it. Besides, my original post wasn't about Trump at all. Even without Trump, america is heading in a direction that's very worrying (for the rest of the world at least. Clearly 50% of america don't mind).

If he becomes president again in 2024, all hope for america is lost.

Its important to remember that only 55% of Americans vote or are registered voters

https://www.statista.com/statistics/273743/number-of-registered-voters-in-the-united-states/

Which means 150 millions Americans dont vote. So whatever the outcome is of any US elections it doesn't  represent what Americans believe ideologically. It only represents what people who vote think

So if Trump wins in 2024 its not the end of the US 

23 minutes ago, Chairchucker said:

Yeah, I do seem to remember him occasionally saying that things were taken out of context, but I honestly can't remember any examples where he provided context that justified what he'd said or done. Personally, his record does not inspire me to give him the benefit of the doubt that such context exists. I think the more likely scenario, given everything he's consistently shown about who he is, is that every time he says or does something awful, it's because he's an awful person who says and does awful things.

One final point about Trump and the reason people  support him. I responded to Lexx around his policies during his presidency. His policies are different to his statements and grandstanding that you referenced 

This is an important distinction because most of his policies were implemented and created by people who werent about the theater of Trumpism like the trade war with China which was the brainchild of the erudite Wilbur Ross

And the reason I mention this is if you judge the Trump presidency only on his statements then I agree he is an epic failure. But tax breaks and getting Conservative judges into the SC is more about Conservative values 

So thats why  many Conservatives dont support Trump necessarily because of the theater of Trumpism but because he was able to deliver on certain successful policies 

And this matters because you dont want to think that all the people who vote for Trump believe the  offensive  things you mentioned. For many GOP supporters its about his policies like the anti-socialism stance that many Cuban Americans agree with

 

 

32 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Its important to remember that only 55% of Americans vote or are registered voters

Yes. And then look at all those new voter suppression laws that are being introduced. American politicians are trying very hard to make as few people vote as possible.

29 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

One final point about Trump and the reason people  support him. I responded to Lexx around his policies during his presidency. His policies are different to his statements and grandstanding that you referenced 

This is an important distinction because most of his policies were implemented and created by people who werent about the theater of Trumpism like the trade war with China which was the brainchild of the erudite Wilbur Ross

And the reason I mention this is if you judge the Trump presidency only on his statements then I agree he is an epic failure. But tax breaks and getting Conservative judges into the SC is more about Conservative values 

So thats why  many Conservatives dont support Trump necessarily because of the theater of Trumpism but because he was able to deliver on certain successful policies 

And this matters because you dont want to think that all the people who vote for Trump believe the  offensive  things you mentioned. For many GOP supporters its about his policies like the anti-socialism stance that many Cuban Americans agree with

 

 

It may surprise you to learn that 'Don't worry, they're not voting for the racist liar because of his racism or his lies, they're voting for him because they like that he prevents policies that protect the poor and vulnerable' does not endear his voter base to me.

21 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Yes. And then look at all those new voter suppression laws that are being introduced. American politicians are trying very hard to make as few people vote as possible.

pff, voting shenanigans in US are old as 50 years or so. nothing new happen during Trump presidency with how you vote

24 minutes ago, Chairchucker said:

It may surprise you to learn that 'Don't worry, they're not voting for the racist liar because of his racism or his lies, they're voting for him because they like that he prevents policies that protect the poor and vulnerable' does not endear his voter base to me.

You very cynical you know that 

15 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

pff, voting shenanigans in US are old as 50 years or so. nothing new happen during Trump presidency with how you vote

Except that supreme court decided that states can make voting laws that majorly effect negatively minorities ability to vote  

36 minutes ago, Elerond said:

Except that supreme court decided that states can make voting laws that majorly effect negatively minorities ability to vote  

Elerond I am not sure if you have researched what new voting  laws target minorities unfairly?

I havent but I have followed some interviews on CNN and Im not sure what people are talking about ?

 

The rising fascism in the United States being embraced by a faction of the political establishment while being tolerated by the other faction and business isn't really a big deal, the REAL issue is that @commiemommy42069 called me a colonizer. Wokeness is out of control.

41 minutes ago, Elerond said:

Except that supreme court decided that states can make voting laws that majorly effect negatively minorities ability to vote  

well, they didn't actual say that, but for all practical purposes that is what is the result o' shelby v holder (2013)  and brnovich v. dnc (2021). eliminated preclearance from vra and also recognized how disparate impact alone on minorities were not enough to invalidate voting limits. 

gonna note we warned folks what were coming...

oh, and on the horizon we got moore v. harper, and at least four Justices has expressed support for the independent state legislature theory. article I of the Constitution includes the following bit:  "the times, places and manner of holding elections for senators and representatives, shall be prescribed in each state by the legislature thereof." proponents o' the independent state legislature theory says that means state courts and even state Constitutions is irrelevant when deciding what is valid insofar as states handling o' fed elections.

2013 were the start, but this Court is gonna make possible a return o' jim crow and potential worse.

HA! Good Fun!

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/14/politics/republicans-block-senate-bill-abortion-travel-states/index.html

I like the Republican quoted caring about the "right to live".

11 minutes ago, Malcador said:

https://www.cnn.cHow om/2022/07/14/politics/republicans-block-senate-bill-abortion-travel-states/index.html

I like the Republican quoted caring about the "right to live".

How is anyone going to know if a women travels to a state and has an abortion?

to be fair, democrats is trying to squeeze as much mileage as possible on abortion 'cause they know that along with trump, it is the one issue on which the gop is obvious vulnerable before the midterms. pretty much every poll suggests a large % of republicans is actual in favour o' a woman's right to choose.

the Constitution does already guarantee a fundamental right o' interstate travel and any state limit on such is gonna get the skunk eye even from the current Court. however, is possible some state tries and comes up with a loophole approach and fed legislation might offer better and more immediate protection as requiring pregnant women to rely on the courts for relief, particular given obvious time constraints, is an unnecessary burden.

HA! Good Fun!

Just now, BruceVC said:

How is anyone going to know if a women travels to a state and has an abortion?

They don't know so they need to prevent all pregnant women travel over state lines  

1 minute ago, Elerond said:

They don't know so they need to prevent all pregnant women travel over state lines  

Yes but all you do is dont tell the state you pregnant, its not  like people generally announce it to the whole world?