Sun and Moon - is this normal?

[yorname]

I'm running an Unbroken/Skald using Sun and Moon and Magran's Blessing to get the most out of Ring of Focused Flame, however when I got my hands on them I found that not only the fire head didn't get +10 ACC, but neither of the heads did bonus damage, is this how it should work? I think I ran a monk/skald with this setup back when I first played this game, and it seemed to work iirc.

I have Community Patch and Balance Polishing Mod installed, but I checked changelog and game files, neither of them touches this item. I also tried getting one with console and it's the same.

[yorname]

I forgot to check the keyword component of community patch, it seems that Fire and Freeze keywords are replaced with something else so the crush damage can hit enemies with elemental immunities, but I still don't fully understand the files and have no idea why the bonus damage is missing

[Elric Galad]

51 minutes ago, yorname said:

I forgot to check the keyword component of community patch, it seems that Fire and Freeze keywords are replaced with something else so the crush damage can hit enemies with elemental immunities, but I still don't fully understand the files and have no idea why the bonus damage is missing

That's probably because Community Patch didn't add their "Fire Weapon" new KW (the one enabling hitting fire immune foes) to the Weapon property adding fire bonus damages.

Ring of Focused Flame probably applies to this KW though.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Ring of Focused Flame doesn't add bonus damage to burn/fire attacks but +10 Accuracy instead. Or what am I missing?

Check the attack roll for the fire head and then the one of the frost head (or some other weapon with similar accuracy). Do they roll with the same accuracy in the combat log?

Edited June 8, 2022 by Boeroer

[yorname]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Ring of Focused Flame doesn't add bonus damage to burn/fire attacks but +10 Accuracy instead. Or what am I missing?

Check the attack roll for the fire head and then the one of the frost head (or some other weapon with similar accuracy). Do they roll with the same accuracy in the combat log?

isn't there supposed to be additional damage with or without the ring anyway? also no bonus acc with the ring either, same acc for 2 heads. pretty sure it's community patch

[Boeroer]

There should be additional lash damage, yes. I don't think CP took that away. I'm using the Community Patch as well and don't experience that behavior. [edit] that's actually wrong, see below [/edit] I get lashes and +10 for the fire head of Sun & Moon with the Ring of Focused Flame. Maybe the mods you installed are biting each other - maybe the loading order is not like recommended. Also sometimes unique weapons can lose their enchantments. It's a very rare bug of the vanilla game (not the mod) - but it's known to happen.

Does the weapon's tooltip still mention the lashes and other enchantments?

Edit: okay... tested it right now to be sure and indeed I get no lashes anymore despite the tooltip saying it. This is new to me. Maybe the latest update on CP broke Sun & Moon.  I will test further and report.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Okay, this is superweird: Removed all mods and not I get the lashes. But I still don't get any ACC bonus from Ring of Focused Flames AND the one-handed acc bonus of +12 only gets applied to the second attack roll, not the first one. Eh?? This wasn't the case some time ago. What happened?

Now I will gradually turn on all seperate mods of the CP and see which one causes the lashes to fail (I suspect the keyword mod).

[Boeroer]

Yep, turned keyword mod of the CP on and the lashes are gone. 

Now I want to check if enchanting the weapon further removes the quirks with the Ring etc. usually I enchant the weapon asap to maybe that's why this was missed...

[Boeroer]

Does nothing. Now I'm really confused though because the lashes went missing even without me turning on ANY mod. Err... wtf??? 

Apparently the missing lashes and turning on the keyword mod was just a concidence? Or would I need to start a new run in order to properly test whether CP causes this or not?

Edited June 8, 2022 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Okay, turned off mods, exited the game, openend it back up and the Ring and lashes work. Seems I really have to shut the game down in between.

Turned keyword mod on, exit/restart and the lashes are still there.

So the keyword mod of CP may not cause the loss of the lashes?

But the +10 ACC from the Ring is gone with the keyword mod. 

I don't know, maybe somebody else wants to join in finding out what is happening here. I think the keyword mod doesn't allow the acc bonus of the ring to apply to Sun & Moon's fire head. But it doesn't seem to remove the lashes. That seems to be caused by something else (also tried the other CP mods and the lashes stayed). They seem to get removed kind of randomly? I'm a bit lost and I gotta go for now. 
 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Boeroer

[Not So Clever Hound]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

AND the one-handed acc bonus of +12 only gets applied to the second attack roll, not the first one.

So this I also noticed and reported some time ago - but IDK if it wasn't the case before, just not reported, or if something changed in the game.

 

To the rest of the issues you mention, I can attest to them but I don't know what's going on. I think @yorname and @Elric Galad are onto something with the KW issue vs. the Ring of Focused Flames, but the Lash... your first testing showed that the lashes were gone with the CP KW component - so I think it might still be linked even if things got weirder with your second testing. Not the first inconsistent behavior that we've seen in Deadfire but you've already demonstrated that it had an adverse effect on both Ring +ACC and Lash so it makes it a prime suspect, no?

[Elric Galad]

Just beware when game actually applies mod changes. I think it usually works when refreshing (by clicking on the refresh or update button) mod list, but I remember a couple of cases where "extra gamedata object from mods" stayed in cache. New Keywords are extra object. I strongly suggest opening related CP KW file so you get the abilities they actually changed to implement their "fire weapon" keyword. They technically needed to update separately all abilities (Scion of Flame, Ring of Focused Flame, Sun&Moon fire damages mod...) to make each of them work with their new KW.

 

I'm taking a break from PoE2 and gamedata files. I finally managed to finish Disco Elysium and to start Tyranny

 

EDIT : I'm just too curious. According to Gamedata files, elemental weapon with CP should only benefit from Elemental Talent, other beneficial effects haven't been modified to take into account the new KW.

So no synergy with Ring of Focused Flame.

Twin Gods mod works with Fire Keyworded and Ice Keyworded flail attacks so shouldn't work with CP. As a consequence Golden Sun and Silver Moon shouldn't work with CP either.

Lunar and Solar Excellence work with Fire and Ice Keyworded attack so shouldn't work with CP for flail attacks.

 

Note this is a theoritical analysis, so I might be mistaken (at least I won't start the game  ).

Maybe checking that everything works properly without any mod could help make things clearer.

Sometimes there's bugs hidden by bugs.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Kaylon]

A way to fix all problems could be to change the heads of Sun and Moon to really deal fire and cold damage (or maybe fire/crush and cold/crush), which was probably intended considering the keywords assigned and the draining enchantment (draining just from the lash doesn't make much sense). (Dragon's Dowry and Frostseeker deserve probably the same treatment too).

[dgray62]

1 hour ago, Kaylon said:

(draining just from the lash doesn't make much sense)

Very true, especially given the fact that the damage of each head was nerfed since it is a multi strike weapon. I like the idea of switching them to fire/crush and cold/crush. The drain should be linked to the total damage done of the respective head, which still would be relatively low, rather than absurdly minimal.

[Boeroer]

The initial problem (and why the keyword mod adressed the keywords of some weapons, too) was that weapons which do alternative damage (like shock/pierce but also pierce/slash) might not do any damage against enemies who are immune to one of that dmg types, even if the alternative dmg should work in theory. Problem is that sometimes enemies with immunities against certain  damage types have low AR or not especially high AR against that type (see Flame Naga). The game logic first determines the highest dmg type/AR ratio and decides the preferable dmg type, then realizes the enemy is immune only afterwards. Bummer. At least that's what I remember.

But it seems the keyword mod only disimproved stuff (in some areas at least).

If I'm ot wrong giving Sun and Moon fire/crush or freeze/crush wouldn't really help with the "can't hurt fire immune enemies with crush dmg" issues which occur without the keyword mod. Maybe crush/fire or crush/freeze would be okay in most cases because the first dmg type will get picked if the ARs (or dmgtype/AR ratios) are equal - and in that case it would be crush dmg. But against Flame Nagas for example it would still prefer fire dmg - bc. the fire AR of them is especially low.

If Sun & Moon only did singular fire and freeze dmg with the repective head then it would make sense and one wouldn't have this quirky "immunity despite alternative dmg scenario" at least -  imo. Just by taking away the alternative dmg type which would avoid all the issues. Same with Dragon's Dowry etc. 

I personally would prefer another solution (which I don't see atm)... but this seems like the simplest one - and one that shouldn't come with other unforseen problems. 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

I think the design was okayish before special KW mod.

It wasn't very good, but consistent with many other cases where a melee attack was negated just because carrying a Keyworded secondary effect (Toxic Strike).

It was especially disappointing with a couple of double damage type effect such as Sulance. Fire Immune are Immune to Sunlance is ANY case, just because it is Fire Keyworded ("Fire Immune" is Keyword AND damage type immunity)

 

KW mod was a mixbag for me. On one side the result is arguably better, but less consistent with other rules, and now we can see it could be buggy.

The bugs can be corrected by introducing these new KW in the effects that lack it.

Or I can go with something entirely different, but with new unexcpected consequences, possible downgrading... I and more work overall.

I get the idea that dthe decorrelation between KW and damages type lead to strange stuff and it might have been better to have these weapons doing 1 type of damages with the related KW. Then again, the KW rules themsleves are a bit unsatisfying (see the Toxic Strike issue above...)

Edited June 10, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Yes, I agree. 

The keyword/immunity implementation was not 100% thought through - or let's say it didn't go through enough iterations of QA and improvement. I guess there were more pressing issues.  

Edited June 10, 2022 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

I have recently chatted with Elric, and he has linked me this thread.

I decided to cross-post here some insight on CP:Keywords and Sun and Moon Weapon:

In CP:Keywords, Phenomenum:

- has introduced new keywords: FireWeapons, FrostWeapons, ElectricityWeapons, CorrodeWeapons

- has made elemental talents (Scion_Of_Flame, Secrets_Of_Rime, Heart_Of_The_Storm, Spirit_Of_Decay) apply their bonus to these ^ keywords as well

- and substituted regular Frost, Fire, Electricity and Corrode keywords on weapons to those above

 

This fixed the issue when enemies immune to one element, were immune even to elem/phys weapon attacks; while at the same keeping the +PEN bonuses from KW talents.

But this also has introduced the following problems:

 

- Arcane Archer was getting -5 ACC malus with elemental weapons (this is fixed, and will be live in an upcoming update)

- Ring of Focused Flames stopped giving it's bonus to weapon attacks/effects with Fire keyword, since they now have FireWeapons keyword

- A bit weird interaction with Sun & Moon (since it doesn't have lashes, but rather kw-conditioned damage procs)

--------

Technically Ring of Focused Flames should provide +10 acc only to Fire attacks. 

Magran's Favor deals slash damage

Sun and Moon deals crush damage

So that's kind of a no

 

Now if there was a weapon that would deal burn damage and only burn, that would be a different story)

Even Firebrand is somewhat under question with its burn/pierce damage, because pierce should not benefit from +10 acc from that ring. Although it's a weapon of pure fire in PoE1...

--------

Regarding Sun and Moon. It's a complicated weapon.

- it deals a crush dmg attack Sun_And_Moon_Attack_Burn (that had Fire kw, which got substituted with FireWeapons kw)

- that attack triggers an instant extra attack Sun_And_Moon_Attack_Freeze (that had Frost kw, which got substituted with FrostWeapons kw)

- also it applies two unkeyworded status effects on the character:  Twin_Gods_SE_BurnProc and Twin_Gods_SE_FreezeProc that deal 25% burn dmg proc every time you deal damage with Fire/Frost keyworded flail attack from ParentEquippable source. These effects kind of imitate a 25% lash, but are NOT a lash, they are damage procs

 

Changing that first head's kw from Fire to FireWeapons, made it lose +10 acc from the ring, and also lose the proc.

-----------------------------------------------

| what am I thinking to do:

| make Twin_Gods_SE_BurnProc and Twin_Gods_SE_FreezeProc check for FireWeapons/FrostWeapons kw instead of Fire/Frost. This should fix the procs

| add Fire/Frost kw to the procs themselves. Such that these bonus damage procs could benefit from +10 acc of the ring. But not the base crush damage attacks

 

What do you think about that? 

And also could you explicitly list what weapon attacks/effects do you think should benefit from Ring of Focused Flame's +10 acc? 

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by MaxQuest

[Elric Galad]

42 minutes ago, MaxQuest said:

I have recently chatted with Elric, and he has linked me this thread.

I decided to cross-post here some insight on CP:Keywords and Sun and Moon Weapon:

In CP:Keywords, Phenomenum:

- has introduced new keywords: FireWeapons, FrostWeapons, ElectricityWeapons, CorrodeWeapons

- has made elemental talents (Scion_Of_Flame, Secrets_Of_Rime, Heart_Of_The_Storm, Spirit_Of_Decay) apply their bonus to these ^ keywords as well

- and substituted regular Frost, Fire, Electricity and Corrode keywords on weapons to those above

 

This fixed the issue when enemies immune to one element, were immune even to elem/phys weapon attacks; while at the same keeping the +PEN bonuses from KW talents.

But this also has introduced the following problems:

 

- Arcane Archer was getting -5 ACC malus with elemental weapons (this is fixed, and will be live in an upcoming update)

- Ring of Focused Flames stopped giving it's bonus to weapon attacks/effects with Fire keyword, since they now have FireWeapons keyword

- A bit weird interaction with Sun & Moon (since it doesn't have lashes, but rather kw-conditioned damage procs)

--------

Technically Ring of Focused Flames should provide +10 acc only to Fire attacks. 

Magran's Favor deals slash damage

Sun and Moon deals crush damage

So that's kind of a no

 

Now if there was a weapon that would deal burn damage and only burn, that would be a different story)

Even Firebrand is somewhat under question with its burn/pierce damage, because pierce should not benefit from +10 acc from that ring. Although it's a weapon of pure fire in PoE1...

--------

Regarding Sun and Moon. It's a complicated weapon.

- it deals a crush dmg attack Sun_And_Moon_Attack_Burn (that had Fire kw, which got substituted with FireWeapons kw)

- that attack triggers an instant extra attack Sun_And_Moon_Attack_Freeze (that had Frost kw, which got substituted with FrostWeapons kw)

- also it applies two unkeyworded status effects on the character:  Twin_Gods_SE_BurnProc and Twin_Gods_SE_FreezeProc that deal 25% burn dmg proc every time you deal damage with Fire/Frost keyworded flail attack from ParentEquippable source. These effects kind of imitate a 25% lash, but are NOT a lash, they are damage procs

 

Changing that first head's kw from Fire to FireWeapons, made it lose +10 acc from the ring, and also lose the proc.

-----------------------------------------------

| what am I thinking to do:

| make Twin_Gods_SE_BurnProc and Twin_Gods_SE_FreezeProc check for FireWeapons/FrostWeapons kw instead of Fire/Frost. This should fix the procs

| add Fire/Frost kw to the procs themselves. Such that these bonus damage procs could benefit from +10 acc of the ring. But not the base crush damage attacks

 

What do you think about that? 

And also could you explicitly list what weapon attacks/effects do you think should benefit from Ring of Focused Flame's +10 acc? 

 

I mostly agree, but I would give Ring of Focused flame the Fire Weapon tag. It works in the base game, so it would be closer to make it work with CP change as well. Also it would be a bit weird to have Scion of Flame but not Ring of Focused Flame working with the new KW.

[MaxQuest]

2 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Also it would be a bit weird to have Scion of Flame but not Ring of Focused Flame working with the new KW.

Agreed

 

2 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

I mostly agree, but I would give Ring of Focused flame the Fire Weapon tag

I was thinking about such approach. But there were a few things that troubled me:

• +10 accuracy from one item, is quite a boon. Wouldn't it askew character builds in the direction of getting a weapon with Fire/FireWeapons kw?
• does it feel natural that Dragon's Dowry attack that deals pierce damage would benefit from that bonus as well?

I'd like to hear more opinions on that. And if majority agrees with adding FireWeapons keyword to Ring of Focused Flame (despite those concerns above), I am open to do it.

[Elric Galad]

Other wild suggestion : what about adding Fire Weapon KW (instead of Fire) to Sunlance ?

I think it wouldn't be too weird and help the spell taking advantage of its dual damage type.

[MaxQuest]

From what I see in CP:Keywords, Phenomenum has substituted Fire keyword with FireWeapons on Sunlance_Ranged attack, but left Fire keyword on the ability itself.

Hmm.

[Elric Galad]

Interesting. It probably worths correcting in a way or the other. But I'm at least relieved that I'm not the only one with this idea  

EDIT : but a potential issue is that it would require updating all +x Fire PL items with Fire Weapon to make it work consistently if ability was set to Fire Weapon (necessary to deal damages to fire Immune AFAIK). Might not be that wise (even though a good idea)

Edited July 20, 2022 by Elric Galad

[thelee]

1 hour ago, MaxQuest said:

• +10 accuracy from one item, is quite a boon. Wouldn't it askew character builds in the direction of getting a weapon with Fire/FireWeapons kw?

isn't this already the case in vanilla? i've made a couple builds that use firebrand. i think right now it's a niche interaction rather than anything too powerful, so i don't see what's wrong with preserving/maintaining this behavior.

[Noqn]

I liked that the Keyword package had a clear purpose; adding Keywords to stuff that clearly should have had them in the first place.
Seamless and does what it says on the tin:

Adding whole new keywords and breaking vanilla behavior (not to mention causing regressions) goes way beyond that. The new keywords adds a bit more bloat to the system and how they are/aren't intertwined with the old keywords decreases comprehensibility. It feels too intrusive of a solution, at least for the Community Patch.

I think respecting vanilla behavior is preferable here and imo these changes should be reverted for now.
 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Noqn