Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, Part 4

[InsaneCommander]

17 minutes ago, MrBrown said:

BTW, units are not equal by amounts. Ie. 10 Marksman is way better than 10 Archers. So if the unit type is really good, even a few can be useful.

And I'm pretty sure the infirmary does heal units even if the whole stack got wiped out. At least on lower difficulty levels, maybe it changes on higher?

I noticed that, but the difference in number is huge so I don't think it makes much difference.

And I just checked the infirmary, it does recover the lost stack. I probably got the wrong idea in a battle that I lost too many units and some were gone for good.

[Gorth]

3 hours ago, MrBrown said:

This is sort of unavoidable. Not focusing so much on mercenaries helps you keep to the same unit types though. Depends a lot on your mythic path too.

BTW, units are not equal by amounts. Ie. 10 Marksman is way better than 10 Archers. So if the unit type is really good, even a few can be useful.

And I'm pretty sure the infirmary does heal units even if the whole stack got wiped out. At least on lower difficulty levels, maybe it changes on higher?

On normal difficulty, the health bar of your army (in the upper left corner) seems to match the infirmary capacity (which you can expand by building in the outposts). I try to heal up as much as possible before end of combat for the same reason. As an old Heroes of Might & Magic commander, the principle of army composition is familiar. The larger the unit stack, the better. Hence trying to focus on a few, useful unit types (that are in regular supply) and then create "Death Stars" (a few, like one or two, all powerful units). In my current game, I have two. Getting those two generals leveled up also meant the third general got left by the wayside, just exploring paths, as the remaining enemy armies are way to strong for the 4 stacks he can command. I could swap stacks between the latter and one of the powerful units, but I just don't see a need for it. The only odd troop type I've kept around is the barbarian warriors. Once you get enough of them to survive initial strike from enemy generals, they hit like a hammer. For the rest, archers/marksmen, shield bearers in defensive mode (to soak up damage) and black knights to do all the killing. I never found any use for scouts (die immediately), inquisitors (nobody expects the Mendevian Inquisition), clerics (they spent all fight self healing but were too few in numbers to last more than 3 rounds) etc.

[Gromnir]

6 hours ago, InsaneCommander said:

@Gromnir The Azata spell you mentioned is really good, except when it kills my own units charmed by Succubi.

I’m accumulating lots of crusade units with a low number of soldiers. They are completely useless since the enemy can one shot them and they probably won’t cause much damage. In some battles even the hundreds of archers I have were killed so imagine these poor guys. Imo there should be a higher army size (10 for example) but a limit on the total number of soldiers when adding each unit. And the hospital should recover even units that were completely wiped out. It would also be much more interesting than stacking as much archers as you can.

 

Anyway, at least the Mongrels are now available as mercenaries so they should increase in number quickly and take the place of the Champions.

 

Wenduag

  Reveal hidden contents

She is way, way too obedient. It doesn’t even work as groveling, since it is too obvious. Or maybe I’m too paranoid. Funny that she hangs out right in front of Lann in Drezen.

 

am typical having 'bout ten "armies" by the end o' act iii, but most such groups is comprised o' two or three small units with an overall army strength less than three. you receive free armies from time-to-time as part o' crusade and/or your mythic path events and most o' such additional armies is useless and do nothing more than take up space on the campaign ui. would be nice to disappear all the clutter beneath a reserves tab or somesuch, but is not a biggie from our pov.

am admitted perplexed by the lack o' upgraded units in your armies.  archers, footmen and mounted scouts is your starting units and you should have the option to upgrade such units kinda early in act iii. 

as to the spider mutant,

Spoiler

folks who imagine it as anything other than creepy and weird is curious. somehow the slavish devotion makes more appealing? how does that work?

in the pnp adventure path there were a ce barbarian follower available in what would be act ii. 

am s'posing she were viewed as too similar to amiri from kingmaker, but she has a quasi familial relationship with staunton which coulda' proven interesting in a couple encounters. woulda' also made a melee barbarian companion available instead o' yet another ranged option... and if owlcat wanted to give jestak the anime treatment, they coulda' made her a cat person and doing so woulda' been no more weird than their efforts with the multi-eyed and chitinous spider mutant. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps while they is not as reliable available given they is mercs, with the nerf o' marksmen and a buff to mongrelmen archers, the mongrelmen makes a decent addition to an army.  

also, as far as we can tell, the recent patch changed talons from natural weapon: other to something else. am gonna assume talons is now benefiting from claw weapon focus and improved critical, but we ain't done a respec to reveal exact how talons is treated in game. is not a big deal for most characters or critters, but such a change does impact velociraptors.

pps @Gorth am hesitating to mention, 'cause is cheese, but when the weekly merc refresh occurs, you get one free chance to change the available units.

...

it is possible to savescum such that  you recruit clerics, hellknights or both with 100% certainty. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Gromnir

[Gorth]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

pps @Gorth am hesitating to mention, 'cause is cheese, but when the weekly merc refresh occurs, you get one free chance to change the available units.

...

it is possible to savescum such that  you recruit clerics, hellknights or both with 100% certainty. 

Yes. I always make sure to get the weekly allotment of hellknights. They are my main hitters in my armies

Too stingy to pay the 2000 gems for an extra reroll though, but it also never seemed necessary.

Is there some for me not obvious benefit to clerics? The times I've tried using them, they become the instant bullet magnets and die before anything else (despite having close to 100hp each). Mind you, I never had large stacks of them, so they rarely make it past second round. Maybe my generals healing skill makes their lay on hands (other) skill redundant?

[InsaneCommander]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

am admitted perplexed by the lack o' upgraded units in your armies.  archers, footmen and mounted scouts is your starting units and you should have the option to upgrade such units kinda early in act iii.

No idea how to do that. I'll check the decrees next time I play.One way or another, I had cleared most of the demon armies on the map, there were only two left, but now a couple more appeared.

 

I also finished Greybor's quest. I delayed the Council decrees until now to hire him first and I delayed his quest because I expected the dragon to be more of a challenge...

Spoiler

Anyway, on my first try I triggered the climbing event when my party was exhausted and Arueshalae ended up falling down the mountain when she forgot she had wings. I decided to reload and rest first, taking the opportunity to remove Seelah's armor for the numerous athletics checks. It went much better, but I could probably have handled the dragon in the first attempt. Or maybe not, Resist and Protection from Fire certainly made the battle much easier than falling down and facing the creature with hurt characters. It would all depend on who acted first, Sosiel with the fire protection or the dragon spitting her breath.

 

4 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Yes. I always make sure to get the weekly allotment of hellknights. They are my main hitters in my armies

Too stingy to pay the 2000 gems for an extra reroll though, but it also never seemed necessary.

Is there some for me not obvious benefit to clerics? The times I've tried using them, they become the instant bullet magnets and die before anything else (despite having close to 100hp each). Mind you, I never had large stacks of them, so they rarely make it past second round. Maybe my generals healing skill makes their lay on hands (other) skill redundant?

They can help with healing and save some of the general's energy for other spells. I also had trouble keeping them alive until they formed a bigger stack.

[Gromnir]

1 minute ago, Gorth said:

Yes. I always make sure to get the weekly allotment of hellknights. They are my main hitters in my armies

Too stingy to pay the 2000 gems for an extra reroll though, but it also never seemed necessary.

Is there some for me not obvious benefit to clerics? The times I've tried using them, they become the instant bullet magnets and die before anything else (despite having close to 100hp each). Mind you, I never had large stacks of them, so they rarely make it past second round. Maybe my generals healing skill makes their lay on hands (other) skill redundant?

is just our experience, but am personal finding hedge knights is gonna be a better option for dealing damage, but hellknights tank exceeding well and do reliable damage. we like to have both hell knights and hedge knights. hedge knights is guaranteed to replenish weekly and with stables in most outposts you will develop overwhelming numbers kinda quick.

a large stack o' clerics provides considerable heals and they are also a durable unit, though am suspecting if you only have a handful they is gonna wilt quick. based on recollection, the cleric heals is powerxd6xunit number, which means you need serious numbers to see results. if your general is healing archers, then he/she ain't doing damage, and even then, is possible you got multiple units requiring heals. cleric heals also do not reduce general energy, but you need a goodly stack to make an impact.

clerics is hardly necessary. have skipped clerics as often as not. 'course have also skipped hellknights, but they got resistance to mind effects and their chaos smite ability means they hit many critters with damage resistance. if you feel you got an either/or proposition with clerics and hellknights, then am thinking hellknights is not a wrong choice. is a few obvious bad choices, but more hellknights is not one such. 

@InsaneCommander

am not certain, but am thinking greybor's upgrade (hedge knights?) doesn't happen in his absence. am knowing we got mounted scouts kinda late in act iii for a couple o' our past characters. nevertheless, we got the footmen and archer upgrades early, and those made a big difference in our overall effectiveness. delay all decrees 'til you finished the dragon hunt were likely unnecessary and maybe kneecapped your own army a smidge as well as putting on hold a whole bunch o' decrees which woulda' boosted your crusade.

no biggie. if you killed the dragon, then just move forward and try to get as much done as possible... and don't forget monuments... add as many monuments as possible once that option becomes available. crusade morale and combat morale stack, so add every combat morale option via decrees and whatnot 'cause high morale is gonna mean 2x actions for a unit. 

HA! Good Fun!

[InsaneCommander]

10 hours ago, Gromnir said:

am not certain, but am thinking greybor's upgrade (hedge knights?) doesn't happen in his absence. am knowing we got mounted scouts kinda late in act iii for a couple o' our past characters. nevertheless, we got the footmen and archer upgrades early, and those made a big difference in our overall effectiveness. delay all decrees 'til you finished the dragon hunt were likely unnecessary and maybe kneecapped your own army a smidge as well as putting on hold a whole bunch o' decrees which woulda' boosted your crusade.

no biggie. if you killed the dragon, then just move forward and try to get as much done as possible... and don't forget monuments... add as many monuments as possible once that option becomes available. crusade morale and combat morale stack, so add every combat morale option via decrees and whatnot 'cause high morale is gonna mean 2x actions for a unit. 

HA! Good Fun!

I didn't delay all decrees. I did some that had choices, like the one allowing people to sell the commander's hair. I improved some relics too, even got a nice shield that blinds people. But I guess I ended up doing too many quests before recruiting Greybor for good. Btw, I paid him twice his price, because I don't think my future characters would do that and I wanted to check if there are any consequences.

[majestic]

There are no decrees to upgrade your units, those are council sessions, and they just don't happen if you never go back to Drezen. Which is pretty wild, how long have you been travelling without going back? Go, go, and make your diplomat unhappy.

[InsaneCommander]

3 minutes ago, majestic said:

There are no decrees to upgrade your units, those are council sessions, and they just don't happen if you never go back to Drezen. Which is pretty wild, how long have you been travelling without going back? Go, go, and make your diplomat unhappy.

I went back plenty of times. But I was ignoring the council decrees until I got Greybor for sure.

[majestic]

Ah, the rank ups, now I get what you mean.

[Gromnir]

am pretty sure greybor is only on the military council. no reason to skip logistics, diplomacy and leadership. if memory serves, on the one run we had greybor early, his suggestion for infantry unit upgrades is spearmen and headhunters for archers, so am never concerned with greybor 'til rank 4ish(?) for military anyways... and only ever post beta did we have wenduag contribute to a military council meeting and am admitting we got fleeting recollections o' her now likely irrelevant and many patches removed suggestions.... convicts (infantry) and bandits (archers)? our memory is better than average, but we literal only used her once and am suffering no sadness at her absence.

*shrug*

aside, the bound of possibility may no longer be equipped by legendary characters, although if you had equipped previous to the most recent patch it remains in the cloak slot... am not sure if it functions in combat but chances are it does. a respec might unequip, so be careful. am suspecting ex-aeon devils may also have bound of possibility issues, but we got no way to test at the moment. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps headhunters is actual kinda a nifty ranged unit, but they is most useful when they is getting hit as they got a retaliation thing going for 'em... but we would prefer not to be hit. as we noted, we near never utilized wenduag recommendations save ever so brief testing during the one run we had her, but am recalling bandits were actual a solid ranged unit and perhaps post marksmen nerf maybe they is a viable option. dunno.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Gromnir

[majestic]

36 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

ps headhunters is actual kinda a nifty ranged unit, but they is most useful when they is getting hit as they got a retaliation thing going for 'em... but we would prefer not to be hit. as we noted, we near never utilized wenduag recommendations save ever so brief testing during the one run we had her, but am recalling bandits were actual a solid ranged unit and perhaps post marksmen nerf maybe they is a viable option. dunno.

Bandits are pretty good because they get rapid shot, but they also get the least amount of units per week. That probably won't matter much in the long run, but a gaggle of Marksmen still do better at piercing DR and have more units on the field.

Wenduag's additions on the logistics council buff mercenaries and make them cheaper, which would be fine if Lann wouldn't give out similar buffs for the more numerous trained units. Her higher tier units are also, ah, well... Witches? Bloodragers, when you could take Dragon Slayers?

Nope.

Edited September 19, 2022 by majestic

[Gorth]

I got a bit stuck... literally

There was a trap and a lab under that old ruined house. Now exploring Areelu's lab, looking for a way to get myself and probably also the long term basement dwellers out of the trap. Poor suckers looks like could use a change of environment.

One surprisingly hard fight (because they looked visually like demons i had fought before). It knocked the stuffing out of my party a bit, but did give some injuries I can't fix until leaving the trap. Of course Sosiel, the one guy with a raise dead spell, was the first one to die, followed by Rengill and one of the mounts (Rengill's raptor iirc). Good thing I had a smaill stockpile of both raise dead and resurrection scrolls in my pocket. Raise Sosiel and he could use Restoration and Raise Dead spells to get my party back on their feet. At least they are walking again without resorting to necromancy

Cleared out the top level and the old part. Now going for the heart of the lab (I think that's what it's called). More fights like that without proper rest and I might send in a bunch of cripples to do the work of heroes

[majestic]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

One surprisingly hard fight (because they looked visually like demons i had fought before). It knocked the stuffing out of my party a bit, but did give some injuries I can't fix until leaving the trap. Of course Sosiel, the one guy with a raise dead spell, was the first one to die, followed by Rengill and one of the mounts (Rengill's raptor iirc). Good thing I had a smaill stockpile of both raise dead and resurrection scrolls in my pocket. Raise Sosiel and he could use Restoration and Raise Dead spells to get my party back on their feet. At least they are walking again without resorting to necromancy

I would suggest spending one of your mythic ranks on giving your characters Last Stand by the time you reach Mythic 5. You never know when an enemy archer decides to engage your backline for no particular reason and starts trouncing through your casters in two or three shots (less if they get off a crit). For Sosiel, Impossible Domain: Animal, and just put him on a boar.

[Gorth]

26 minutes ago, majestic said:

I would suggest spending one of your mythic ranks on giving your characters Last Stand by the time you reach Mythic 5. You never know when an enemy archer decides to engage your backline for no particular reason and starts trouncing through your casters in two or three shots (less if they get off a crit). For Sosiel, Impossible Domain: Animal, and just put him on a boar.

Oh, I know. I think most of them have it by now (if not, it's an oversight). In case of Sosiel and Regill definitely. Need to double check what I gave them. I know Gorth, Arueshalae, Ember and Greybor has is.  Enemies are frequently using AI (artificial idiocy) storming through and past the heavy hitters for the back line, completely ignoring the often lethal hail of opportunity attacks they suffer on the way. Sometimes they do make it through though and the ladies will just stand there, giggle loudly with zero hitpoints, while the enemies keeping hewing chunk after chunk of hitpoints off them (which doesn't do anything when using last stand). After the fight they just brush the dirt off their clothes and share tall stories about their latest 'near death' experience.

 

Edit: Ah, Camellia dropped the act when I came back to Drezen and told what her amulet was about. Nothing like some hot and steamy sex on top of a naked corpse to say "welcome home!"

[majestic]

Sosiel doesn't really have a free slot for Last Stand unless you want to give up Elemental Barrage or one of the better domains or turn him into a cold damage spam bot*. Well, maybe on normal you can forgo Mythic Spell Focus, otherwise his Mythic rankups are full with getting the proper domains (Community, Animal**, Madness, maybe Nobility) and Abundant Casting as well as Domain Zealot.

*Depends a little on your party composition, but it can work too***. Add a level of Cross-Blooded Sorcerer with Water and Silver bloodlines, then add a Second Bloodline: White to the mix and Ascendant Element: Cold. Give him Coldbite, Hide Armor of Elemental Carnage and Elemental Imbuement, then make sure he takes some cold damage from somwhere and watch your enemies explode. You'd need Greater Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Focus: Evocation as feats. On the bright side, no Elemental Barrage necessary. Guess on normal you could get away with dropping Madness.

**Primarily there so he doesn't keel over in every fight. Medium Armor Focus on a DEX 10 character, not even Bioware could come up with that kind of gimping. What the hell, Owlcat?

***Here's the point where I once again mention how much easier this build is to pull off with a mercenary Cleric worshipping Erastil - getting Community and Animal as starter picks leaves only Madness to be taken, you can get all the good bits including Last Stand and have enough spell slots to blast away enemies all day. A mercenary also doesn't spend his first four feats on Selective Channel, Extra Channel, Toughness, and Medium Armour Focus. Jesus H. Christ.

Edited September 20, 2022 by majestic

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

2 hours ago, majestic said:

Sosiel doesn't really have a free slot for Last Stand unless you want to give up Elemental Barrage or one of the better domains or turn him into a cold damage spam bot*. Well, maybe on normal you can forgo Mythic Spell Focus, otherwise his Mythic rankups are full with getting the proper domains (Community, Animal**, Madness, maybe Nobility) and Abundant Casting as well as Domain Zealot.

*Depends a little on your party composition, but it can work too***. Add a level of Cross-Blooded Sorcerer with Water and Silver bloodlines, then add a Second Bloodline: White to the mix and Ascendant Element: Cold. Give him Coldbite, Hide Armor of Elemental Carnage and Elemental Imbuement, then make sure he takes some cold damage from somwhere and watch your enemies explode. You'd need Greater Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Focus: Evocation as feats. On the bright side, no Elemental Barrage necessary. Guess on normal you could get away with dropping Madness.

**Primarily there so he doesn't keel over in every fight. Medium Armor Focus on a DEX 10 character, not even Bioware could come up with that kind of gimping. What the hell, Owlcat?

***Here's the point where I once again mention how much easier this build is to pull off with a mercenary Cleric worshipping Erastil - getting Community and Animal as starter picks leaves only Madness to be taken, you can get all the good bits including Last Stand and have enough spell slots to blast away enemies all day. A mercenary also doesn't spend his first four feats on Selective Channel, Extra Channel, Toughness, and Medium Armour Focus. Jesus H. Christ.

I think Sosiel is saved from bad feat selections by Cleric being a strong class, but MAF when you can just take Heavy Armor (itself not an optimal choice) is questionable. However, I think Good Domain stacked with Domain Zealot is actually a really strong buff that shouldn't be slept on. With his relatively good strength Sosiel can make a passable martial cleric.

[xzar_monty]

Heck. I just came back from Iz where I apparently went too soon for one particular goal which resulted in two deaths I wasn't looking forward to, but I'm all right with that. Anyway, I thought I'd be in the endgame at this point, but apparently not. This game drags on far, far longer than it has any right to. It took me months to gather the energy to try to further my game from where it was, and now the energy's gone again.

Anyone else experienced this? It was good fun in Acts 1, 2 and 3. ACt 4 was a bit of a bore at times, because the architecture kept changing in unpleasant ways and some of the encounters were just ridiculous, but now it's getting seriously unfun. Which is not good for a game, if you ask me.

[Gorth]

Not yet... but then I'm only partway through Act III. Ambushed the dragon that Greybor wants as a trophy over his fireplace and next step is to follow the blood trails. Too me forever to find them on the map

 

That said, a Tricksters army has some interesting elements to it

 

Not to mention the spell selection

 

[xzar_monty]

31 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Not yet... but then I'm only partway through Act III. Ambushed the dragon that Greybor wants as a trophy over his fireplace and next step is to follow the blood trails. Too me forever to find them on the map

Yeah, at that point I was also all into it!

Lemme know how it goes after the blood trails, I'm really quite interested -- especially if you're playing on Core or higher.

[majestic]

50 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Anyone else experienced this? It was good fun in Acts 1, 2 and 3. ACt 4 was a bit of a bore at times, because the architecture kept changing in unpleasant ways and some of the encounters were just ridiculous, but now it's getting seriously unfun. Which is not good for a game, if you ask me.

Enigma killed my will to live and I dropped the game for almost six months before forcing myself to finish the Unfair run I had going.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I used a guide for Enigma and it was still one of the most frustrating gaming experiences I've ever had.

[majestic]

Yes, well, that goes without saying. I haven't solved a single Wrath of the Righteous puzzle without a guide, not even the prologue's four colour puzzle. It takes two hours to get through Enigma with a guide, no way I'm ever doing this without one.

[xzar_monty]

I haven't been to Enigma (heck, I don't even know where it is and how to get there) but I've heard it's not fun.

As for the puzzles in general, clearly they're not well planned.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

11 minutes ago, majestic said:

Yes, well, that goes without saying. I haven't solved a single Wrath of the Righteous puzzle without a guide, not even the prologue's four colour puzzle. It takes two hours to get through Enigma with a guide, no way I'm ever doing this without one.

I went ahead in Enigma without a guide and reloaded out of frustration. Truly an excercise in frustration.