Ukraine Conflict - Es ist nichts schrecklicher als eine tätige Unwissenheit

[Gorth]

20 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

However, this new article from a more reputable source suggests there might be something to it: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/putin-purges-150-fsb-agents-in-response-to-russias-botched-war-with-ukraine-lf9k6tn6g

Not just The Times...

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-purges-in-putins-shrinking-inner-circle

https://www.timesofisrael.com/putin-said-to-be-conducting-internal-purge-of-military-generals-intel-personnel/

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/putin-purges-russian-intelligence-as-military-elite-suffer-devastating-losses

https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-rumored-to-be-purging-kremlin-officials-over-ukraine-invasion-2022-3

 

[Elerond]

1 hour ago, Lexx said:

How big is the actual difference between being a generic POW and anything else in russia? Not a bait question, I'm genuinely curious.

If you are foreign mercenary you are most likely treated better as Russia will more likely use you in their propaganda

[bugarup]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

There was a very dubious-looking "article" about how the Ukrainian invasion may have failed because the Russian intelligence embezzled all the money that was supposed to be used as bribes: http://www.thelowdownblog.com/2022/03/is-putins-invasion-failing-because.html?fbclid=IwAR0xPTO7_eAiuqThICAswXkkSMfkqHVOM0YYdwJMEerAlWkSnx4h-Vdv7ss

Now, there would have been nothing surprising about this scheme or its failure, as both were precisely the kind of thing you'd expect in and from Russia. But the article looked very, very dubious.

However, this new article from a more reputable source suggests there might be something to it: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/putin-purges-150-fsb-agents-in-response-to-russias-botched-war-with-ukraine-lf9k6tn6g

But obviously this is far from proven as of now. It does look like a decent hypothesis, however. Military experts in my country have been completely unequivocal about the fact that the initial attack was idiotic, there was no way any sane strategist should have expected that to succeed. So, apparently, they must have expected something to happen within Ukraine.

I've read it in multiple sources of assorted dubiousness and never questioned it because it's how Russia always operated. Banana for scale - here's a credible (there is existing case) source about corruption in warship service business, where the dude embezzled over 692 million roubles out of 1 billion, i.e. 69%: 

https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/5271652

And it's just a mundane, one-of-many sort of a case, not even scandalous like that high ranking law enforcement officer who had to rent an apartment just to store all his bribe money.  

 

[BruceVC]

16 hours ago, Mamoulian War said:

Well. I am sorry to upset anyone, but lately being not very active here, I am trying to answer all the questions/posts as soon, as I found any interesting ones. And sometimes these questions are spanned over few pages. (Yes, you are correct, not the case this time). Also for some reason when I tried to use multiquote few times in the past, it failed on me few times before. So I am more clumsy than lazy, while trying to answer multiple of people at once

I doubt you upsetting many people just those that complain about things that arent a big deal considering how overall quiet off-topic is normally

 

[Chilloutman]

yeah multi quote is weird, give us bbcode back! xD

[xzar_monty]

2 hours ago, bugarup said:

I've read it in multiple sources of assorted dubiousness and never questioned it because it's how Russia always operated. Banana for scale - here's a credible (there is existing case) source about corruption in warship service business, where the dude embezzled over 692 million roubles out of 1 billion, i.e. 69%:

Interesting. Thanks for that!

This is one of the major problems inherent in a kleptocracy: there is no trust. Vladimir Putin himself, being an out-and-out liar but not an idiot (IQ-wise), must recognize that because his regime is built on lies, this means that he cannot trust others, either. This, in turn, helps explain why he's built such massive internal security force: to protect him from his own people.

The whole affair is so sad it's difficult to even express. This man had all the opportunity to at least try to build a better future for his own country and nation, but he decided not to(*). His lack of care is well exemplified by his willingness to kill his own people: the most heavily bombed city of Mariupol was 44% ethnic Russian. Putin ordered massive shelling anyway.

(*) Some Russian universities have been good. Moscow University has expressed outrage at the war in Ukraine. At the moment, there are strong indications that Putin is intent on destroying education, too.

[Sarex]

 

[Malcador]

7 hours ago, Lexx said:

It's not as if nobody ever critizised what the USA did in the middle east. People pretend now that we were always ok with it and never said anything.

Effectively it is though, just some marching but not much else. As Zoraptor wrote, the moralizing is more it.  It is also funny to see people demanding something be done but then you see things like the Tigrayans and no one gives a ****, heh.

In any case it's just the US that cartoon was mocking, not "the west".

[BruceVC]

5 minutes ago, Sarex said:

 

I dont get it? Thats exactly how you suppose to respond 

[xzar_monty]

14 minutes ago, Malcador said:

It is also funny to see people demanding something be done but then you see things like the Tigrayans and no one gives a ****, heh.

But that's not true, either. Nor would it be true to say that no one gives a damn about what's happening in China. If you intend to say that the international response is much weaker than it should be, then that's a potentially fine argument, but it would really help the discussion if you actually made arguments that are true. Saying that no one cares at all is simply not true.

[BruceVC]

6 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Effectively it is though, just some marching but not much else. As Zoraptor wrote, the moralizing is more it.  It is also funny to see people demanding something be done but then you see things like the Tigrayans and no one gives a ****, heh.

In any case it's just the US that cartoon was mocking, not "the west".

Nah, its not moralizing to align ideologically with the West\NATO and to condemn Putins War, I would say thats normal for anyone living in a Constitutional Democracy 

And what about the Tigrayans? You cant expect more, or even equal, attention to a brutal civil war in Ethiopia, that even the AU isnt concerned about, than to a war on the border of the EU that directly impacts the EU, US and their allies

 

 

[Malcador]

7 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

But that's not true, either. Nor would it be true to say that no one gives a damn about what's happening in China. If you intend to say that the international response is much weaker than it should be, then that's a potentially fine argument, but it would really help the discussion if you actually made arguments that are true. Saying that no one cares at all is simply not true.

Just lay people not nations. I'd largely say people don't really care about the Uighurs that much, the rare few that I see mention them it's just a stick to beat China with.  Probably is just due to the media coverage, well for some, a coworker commented that the other situations - Myanmar, Tigray, Yemen were "complex" and "common for that part of the world" (I work with some real gems, heh). 

 

33 minutes ago, Sarex said:

 

Was thinking it was just a shooting, but nope, just a regular manhole explosion which is common, I believe - sad if true, need to work on infrastructure

https://abc7chicago.com/times-square-explosion-new-york-city-nyc-manhole/11736951/

1 minute ago, BruceVC said:

Nah, its not moralizing to align ideologically with the West\NATO and to condemn Putins War, I would say thats normal for anyone living in a Constitutional Democracy 

And what about the Tigrayans? You cant expect more, or even equal, attention to a brutal civil war in Ethiopia, that even the AU isnt concerned about, than to a war on the border of the EU that directly impacts the EU, US and their allies

At the state level - decrying aggression by a permanent member is a joke by any of them to make, equally going on about might making right.  As for the Tigrayans, I don't see why they can't care the same. I see people calling for war with Russia, going to bust Ethiopia's nose is much easier as well.

[Elerond]

1 hour ago, Sarex said:

 

 

Twitter is so easy way to spread propaganda with only very few ever to check facts

Edited April 12, 2022 by Elerond

[Sarex]

22 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Was thinking it was just a shooting, but nope, just a regular manhole explosion which is common, I believe - sad if true, need to work on infrastructure

https://abc7chicago.com/times-square-explosion-new-york-city-nyc-manhole/11736951/

I assumed it was something like that, but I didn't want to double post in the funny thread.

[213374U]

36 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Saying that no one cares at all is simply not true.

Technically not true, perhaps. Typical response to bad stuff going down somewhere the average westling westerner can't find on a map (current relevant example being Yemen):

I mean, if you support 'decoupling' from Russia economically -a fine stance to maintain- there is no valid argument for not doing the same with Saudi. Every accusation you can throw at Putin is also applicable to MBS. But when this apparent double standard is brought up, it's always "OMG wHaTaBoUtIsM". It's like people feel obligated to defend hypocrisy just because the hypocrite happens to be repeating a talking point that resonates with them currently.

The world would be such a better place if people were just a tad more consistent with their outrage.

[BruceVC]

https://www.investopedia.com/russia-in-selective-default-on-sovereign-debt-5225534

Russia is in default of paying back interest on bonds and paying back bonds that have matured from  foreign investors, they offered to pay in Rubles but investors werent interested in such a problematic currency 

Bad Russia, to quote from the article " As a result, Russia is moving toward its first full default on foreign currency denominated sovereign debt in more than a century "

Edited April 12, 2022 by BruceVC

[Mamoulian War]

7 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

One of the more famous British volunteers has surrendered in Mariupol

He may be in for an... interesting time since it's pretty much certain he'll be treated as a mercenary/ unlawful combatant and not a POW. The good news is at least he's likely to be worth more alive than dead and publicly surrendered.

Technically, they are not mercenaries, as they have officially signed joining papers of the Ukrainian Foreign Legion. They needed to be approved by Ukrainian Military to join their ranks, to officially fight for them and get the official support by the Ukrainian Army. They are foreigners, but still part of the Ukrainian army. Of course there are also some foreigners which are there on their own. But it's much lower number, from what I understood.

[xzar_monty]

10 minutes ago, 213374U said:

I mean, if you support 'decoupling' from Russia economically -a fine stance to maintain- there is no valid argument for not doing the same with Saudi. Every accusation you can throw at Putin is also applicable to MBS. But when this apparent double standard is brought up, it's always "OMG wHaTaBoUtIsM". It's like people feel obligated to defend hypocrisy just because the hypocrite happens to be repeating a talking point that resonates with them currently.

The world would be such a better place if people were just a tad more consistent with their outrage.

I fully agree with this, and the Saudi example is particularly good. What I find somewhat baffling is the implication that I or others here support this double standard or use the whataboutism argument you describe. (Obviously I cannot speak for anybody else in here, but I haven't seen anyone talking along those lines you describe.)

Just to take English football as an example: I have always maintained that Abramovich shouldn't have been allowed to purchase Chelsea. Since then, we have seen at least two acquisitions that are even more unacceptable than that, but they went ahead. It's there that you really do see some serious hypocrisy going on: accepting money was fine, and the money allowed certain people to disregard other, equally important facts.

[Mamoulian War]

16 minutes ago, 213374U said:

Technically not true, perhaps. Typical response to bad stuff going down somewhere the average westling westerner can't find on a map (current relevant example being Yemen):

I mean, if you support 'decoupling' from Russia economically -a fine stance to maintain- there is no valid argument for not doing the same with Saudi. Every accusation you can throw at Putin is also applicable to MBS. But when this apparent double standard is brought up, it's always "OMG wHaTaBoUtIsM". It's like people feel obligated to defend hypocrisy just because the hypocrite happens to be repeating a talking point that resonates with them currently.

The world would be such a better place if people were just a tad more consistent with their outrage.

Well the difference is, that Saudis do not have nukes... But I am one of the people who got always attacked by being pro Russian, when I brought up this conflict and Saudis atrocities (not on these forums but IRL)... And whether we like it or not, people are more engaged, when their neighbours are being killed than some random folks 1000 miles away. Prime example would be, that people here gave as much **** about 9/11 as they give now about Saudis killing Yemenis

Edited April 12, 2022 by Mamoulian War

[Chilloutman]

11 minutes ago, 213374U said:

Technically not true, perhaps. Typical response to bad stuff going down somewhere the average westling westerner can't find on a map (current relevant example being Yemen):

I mean, if you support 'decoupling' from Russia economically -a fine stance to maintain- there is no valid argument for not doing the same with Saudi. Every accusation you can throw at Putin is also applicable to MBS. But when this apparent double standard is brought up, it's always "OMG wHaTaBoUtIsM". It's like people feel obligated to defend hypocrisy just because the hypocrite happens to be repeating a talking point that resonates with them currently.

The world would be such a better place if people were just a tad more consistent with their outrage.

Quite contrary. I would like to maintain support from Russia if Russia would not be such a B for once in the century so we can get rid of our dependency on middle east for fossil fuels. Is west stance on MBS hypocritical? Yes. Do I like it? No. But fact is that Europe needs fossil fuels from someone. And I think green deal in principle would be great to reduce EU dependency on fossil fuels, but germans being germans always mess it up. Instead of starting Nukes and moving to clean electricity they just swapped from being depended on oil to being depended on gas - go figure. (not to mention that going electric also means we need a lot of precious metals which EU does not have either). And considering no-one wants to go back to horseback riding we need some solution. 

[213374U]

24 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

Technically, they are not mercenaries, as they have officially signed joining papers of the Ukrainian Foreign Legion. They needed to be approved by Ukrainian Military to join their ranks, to officially fight for them and get the official support by the Ukrainian Army. They are foreigners, but still part of the Ukrainian army. Of course there are also some foreigners which are there on their own. But it's much lower number, from what I understood.

It's a muddy mess. Technically, no war has been declared, so what's the legal standing?

There's also the possibility that he'd have to face the music if (when) he's sent back to the UK. Could be prosecuted under the Foreign Enlistment Act of 1870 that bans Britons from fighting wars against countries the UK is at peace with, and the official posture of the gov't is that anyone going to fight there is breaking the law. Normally I doubt it would be enforced but you never know.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

And whether we like it or not, people are more engaged, when their neighbours are being killed than some random folks 1000 miles away. Prime example would be, that people here gave as much **** about 9/11 as they give now about Saudis killing Yemenis

Yes. That's probably the most sincere argument I've seen for this. We simply care more about bad **** when we believe we could be next, or when it's happening to a people we feel a kinship with.

Politicians and officials in esteemed and righteous international organizations should be above such tribalisms, though. Universal human rights are supposed to be that, not regional, not ethnic, not tribal.

Edited April 12, 2022 by 213374U

[Chilloutman]

2 minutes ago, 213374U said:

Politicians and officials in esteemed and morally immaculate international organizations should be above such tribalisms, though. Universal human rights are supposed to be that, not regional, not ethnic, not tribal.

you mean UN? I doubt it when politicians there are from countries which does not give a damn about universal human rights in the first place

[213374U]

20 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

Quite contrary. I would like to maintain support from Russia if Russia would not be such a B for once in the century so we can get rid of our dependency on middle east for fossil fuels. Is west stance on MBS hypocritical? Yes. Do I like it? No. But fact is that Europe needs fossil fuels from someone. And I think green deal in principle would be great to reduce EU dependency on fossil fuels, but germans being germans always mess it up. Instead of starting Nukes and moving to clean electricity they just swapped from being depended on oil to being depended on gas - go figure. (not to mention that going electric also means we need a lot of precious metals which EU does not have either). And considering no-one wants to go back to horseback riding we need some solution. 

Meanwhile in Germany...

[Chilloutman]

as I said, Germans being Germans. Always have to ef up Europe somehow

[Elerond]

45 minutes ago, 213374U said:

It's a muddy mess. Technically, no war has been declared, so what's the legal standing?

Technically all Russian soldiers in Ukraine are terrorists/murderers/other form criminals who aren't protected by any laws governing soldiers in war.

EDIT: But because most of world considers it as war they would be treated like they are soldiers in international courts and get protection from most acts that are done because they were commanded to do what they have done

Edited April 12, 2022 by Elerond