A place for failed tests... for posterity

[Not So Clever Hound]

There is a lot of effervescence these days around finding new stuff in the Deadfire! As forum contributors investigate ideas, we are eager to report nice synergies/combos that we didn't know of, or things that aren't working as they should.

But we're less keen on reporting on basic failures, i.e. experiments that just didn't work out either way. I thought maybe it would be nice to know of those experiments that didn't yield any meaningful results, if only to spare the trouble for others . So here's my trial at this.

Those probably aren't 'new news' to many, but I'll report on 2 recent experiments that just didn't work out. I'll try to add to this thread as I (don't) discover stuff . Don't hesitate if you'd like to post on your own "meh, scrap that" experiments.

-I tried if Rot Skulls' potential would benefit from Arcane Archer bonus elemental accuracy: doesn't work.

-I tried if Shadow Step's Paralyze effect would spread to multiple targets with an AoE weapon like WotEP: doesn't work.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Boeroer]

- Wounding Shot with AoE weapons: nope - the only ability that doesn't apply its effects to the AoE of such weapons.

But seriously - if I started to post all the stuff that I tested and which didn't work out the forum would probably overflow.   

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

- Wounding Shot with AoE weapons: nope - the only ability that doesn't apply its effects to the AoE of such weapons.

Also Power Strike and Strike the Bell line.

[thelee]

I like the idea! Broader problem in the scientific community of not enough reporting on failed experiments or insignificant results. Things that don't work are good to know, too!

 

A couple recent no-go experiments off the top of my head:

• using Seeker's Fang or those Jester shoes to make trap durations last longer -> nope, only affects damage. (Would've been nice to get some very long-lived disorient out of the chain traps)
• using Chain Lightning with only two foes for maximum per-target damage -> nope, chain lightning doesn't re-target a previously hit creature! (unlike, say, Firebug)

[Not So Clever Hound]

9 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Also Power Strike and Strike the Bell line.

Since we're talking about Bells, the unique Arquebus Three Bells Through does shoot up to 3 targets in a line, but it won't spread special attacks/DoT effects (only the first hit gets affected).

[Ouroboros226]

I'm making a fart mage build right now. Conjuration or Transmutation spellblade assassin. I can't say if it's a failure YET but it probably will be dunno. 

The idea is to go in invis and "fart" AOE spells (durations and/or instants). Then go invis and sneak, farting another cloud of AOE poison, then invis - repeat. The idea is basically as simple as it sounds. Sneak in, fart, sneak out and hope they blame each other for the smell. Then do it again. 

Assassin for extra punch and for smoke cloud invis. Don't want to be blamed for dropping them bombs.

[Not So Clever Hound]

This is maybe the son of Boeroer's adorable Bilestomper build in PoE1.

Beware than Burst spells will work well (Noxious Burst, Death Ring), DoT spells/abilities will work well too (Pernicious Cloud from Rogue tree) however pulsing AoE spells like Malignant Cloud (but also Freezing Pillar and Chill Fog) will interfere with your invisibility (i.e. each time they pulse, there is an attack roll, which will break your invisibility).

[Ouroboros226]

10 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

This is maybe the son of Boeroer's adorable Bilestomper build in PoE1.

Beware than Burst spells will work well (Noxious Burst, Death Ring), DoT spells/abilities will work well too (Pernicious Cloud from Rogue tree) however pulsing AoE spells like Malignant Cloud (but also Freezing Pillar and Chill Fog) will interfere with your invisibility (i.e. each time they pulse, there is an attack roll, which will break your invisibility).

Thanks for letting me know. I didn't know a chill fog dot pulse would break your smoke cloud if it ticks. I'm still theorycrafting this, currently struggling most to decide between transmutation, conjurer, generalist or blood mage.

[Boeroer]

Shadowing Beyond (Rogue), Smoke Veil, Shadowed Hunters and invisibility potion break on all attack rolls (DoT ticks are no attack rolls).

Shadowing Beyond (Priest of Skaen) breaks on everything including DoT ticks.

Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure only breaks on dealing damage (except from Wall spells). That means it doesn't break on pure CC attacks. DoTs will break it. Wall of Flame, Wall of Many Colors etc. do not break it. 

Vanishing Strikes doesn't break at all. You can do what you like during its duration: you will stay invisible. 

 

[Ouroboros226]

51 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Shadowing Beyond (Rogue), Smoke Veil, Shadowed Hunters and invisibility potion break on all attack rolls (DoT ticks are no attack rolls).

Shadowing Beyond (Priest of Skaen) breaks on everything including DoT ticks.

Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure only breaks on dealing damage (except from Wall spells). That means it doesn't break on pure CC attacks. DoTs will break it. Wall of Flame, Wall of Many Colors etc. do not break it. 

Vanishing Strikes doesn't break at all. You can do what you like during its duration: you will stay invisible. 

 

So you CAN actually stealth in and use noxious cloud, deathring, malignant cloud, chill cloud etc. with impunity /w smoke veil cycling? Do you think multi-classing only for the assassin bonus and stealth is bad compared to pure wizard? Seeing how you can make invis potions which covers half the point of me trying this in the first place  Unless invis potions are expensive or difficult to make that is. Using 2 per encounter I'd need hundreds.

[Not So Clever Hound]

1 hour ago, Ouroboros226 said:

So you CAN actually stealth in and use noxious cloud, deathring, malignant cloud, chill cloud etc. with impunity /w smoke veil cycling? Do you think multi-classing only for the assassin bonus and stealth is bad compared to pure wizard? Seeing how you can make invis potions which covers half the point of me trying this in the first place  Unless invis potions are expensive or difficult to make that is. Using 2 per encounter I'd need hundreds.

Assassin/Wizard (typically Blood Mage) is definitely a top-tier powergaming build - so is pure Wizard (cough cough, Blood Mage). Pure BM is probably a step ahead over the total length of the game. But it depends on difficulty settings, Magran's Fires settings etc.

If you multiply AoE hazard spells that pulse every time on the battlefield (i.e. create an attack roll every pulse that will have an attack resolution: miss, graze, hit, crit - every pulse) in practice you won't be able to go invisible because each of the many pulses will break your invisibility. So no, you can't go balls out casting all those things and stay invisible . Though as @Haplok pointed out in some other thread, even then Ninagauth's Freezing Pillar is still an MVP and too hard to pass for an Assassin/Bloodmage even with that issue.

DoTs are different. There is one attack roll which leads to one attack resolution, and this attack resolution + your MIG, INT and PL and the enemy RES and other potential negative effect % reduction quirks will determine how much damage they take per tick (your MIG + PL) and for how long (your INT + PL vs. their RES and some potential other effects).

Edited September 1, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Boeroer]

I find Assassin/Bloodmage very good with A's Brilliant Departure - because you can cast several CC/debuff spells with +25 ACC from Assasinate and then finally start with the damaging stuff as soon as all the nasty debuffs/disables landed successfully.

[Haplok]

11 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I find Assassin/Bloodmage very good with A's Brilliant Departure - because you can cast several CC/debuff spells with +25 ACC from Assasinate and then finally start with the damaging stuff as soon as all the nasty debuffs/disables landed successfully.

That's certainly a valid approach. Although being dead is the ultimate form of CC

And an Assassin/Wizard can pump A LOT of damage in a short period of time.

[Haplok]

15 hours ago, Ouroboros226 said:

So you CAN actually stealth in and use noxious cloud, deathring, malignant cloud, chill cloud etc. with impunity /w smoke veil cycling? Do you think multi-classing only for the assassin bonus and stealth is bad compared to pure wizard? Seeing how you can make invis potions which covers half the point of me trying this in the first place  Unless invis potions are expensive or difficult to make that is. Using 2 per encounter I'd need hundreds.

You CANNOT use Chill Fog or Malignant Cloud when you want to use Stealth, as the Clever Hound has pointed out.

Noxious Burst or Deathring would work... but particularly the latter is a pretty poor use the 6th level slot in most cases.

Minoletta's Precisely Piercing Burst would often easily do twice its damage. Freezing Pillar also wins in cumulative damage over time by a huge margin.

Spoiler

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Haplok

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, Haplok said:

You CANNOT use Chill Fog or Malignant Cloud when you want to use Stealth, as the Clever Hound has pointed out.

Noxious Burst or Deathring would work... but particularly the latter is a pretty poor use the 6th level slot in most cases.

Minoletta's Precisely Piercing Burst would often easily do twice its damage. Freezing Pillar also wins in cumulative damage over time by a huge margin.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Yup but Death Ring AoE is 4 times bigger (twice the radius) so it's logical that it isn't as damaging !

Also it destroys Near Death targets which is sometimes useful. Destroy spells works on a Graze AND as an assassin you can get a +25 accuracy bonus when using it from stealth. Basically auto-kill everything Near Death with a Fortitude at most equal to your accuracy. Given the later, I would qualify Death Ring as a no brainer for an assassin, even if Piercing Burst is often better. You can still pick both.

And Freezing Pillars would apply Assassin bonus only on 1st tick before breaking invisibility so...

Also you can't rely ONLY on a Pierce damages spells. Just toomuch foes are immune to it. I would pick both, especially on a Bloodmage who has 2/3 chances of restoring his Tier 6 spells (provided no other slot consumed).

Edited September 2, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

As a Spellblade you can have 7 grimoires at the ready. The versatility is enormous compared to all other casters. Why use ability points for spells in the first place?

By the way: the passive ability Aloth can get from his quest and which lowers the grimoire switching time by 1 second should have been a Wizard passive ability besides Rapid Casting, Spellshaping and so on. Too bad it's not...

[thelee]

Back to failed tests, anyone know if Stalking Cloak does anything for spells? Or is it just weapons. Surely someone tested this before, but my googlefu is failing me. I'd test it myself, but I'm hoping someone can save me a few minutes

[Not So Clever Hound]

11 minutes ago, thelee said:

Back to failed tests, anyone know if Stalking Cloak does anything for spells? Or is it just weapons. Surely someone tested this before, but my googlefu is failing me. I'd test it myself, but I'm hoping someone can save me a few minutes

Other than the +PER and to a lower extent +Stealth, it does not benefit spellcasting.  

[Not So Clever Hound]

It's a half-failed experiment but anyway: an Ancient/Beckoner summoning "Yet its Mate..." can get two small Drakes. Then you can spend their abilities and kill them to get 2 big enraged Drakes that are much, much better but join your team (not your party) though with a refreshed duration. Then cast Wild Growth on them to get really big beasties. Cool... but not as useful as I thought really.

[thelee]

Another question for the testing crowd: does Nemnok's Cloak's abilities activate once/encounter, once/rest?

Once again, I feel like someone (maybe even me) played around with this a while ago, but googling for answers came up short.

 

Anyway, enough taking, another contribution of my own:

• Venombloom (or other similar functional abilities) do not proc Least Unstable Coil if the target is immune to the effect somehow (in this case poison immuinty) - it actually needs a successful attempt, even if it's spell reflected or spell resisted or something.

[Not So Clever Hound]

11 minutes ago, thelee said:

Another question for the testing crowd: does Nemnok's Cloak's abilities activate once/encounter, once/rest?

It's per rest (if you hover over each of the abilities - Spirit Shield, Ironskin, BDD - you will see the charge per rest).

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

It's a half-failed experiment but anyway: an Ancient/Beckoner summoning "Yet its Mate..." can get two small Drakes. Then you can spend their abilities and kill them to get 2 big enraged Drakes that are much, much better but join your team (not your party) though with a refreshed duration. Then cast Wild Growth on them to get really big beasties. Cool... but not as useful as I thought really.

The good thing is that the new drakes don't count toward summon limit.

Still it's meh because Drake Summons are rather bad (unless using BPM Summon package ,)

[Not So Clever Hound]

19 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

(unless using BPM Summon package ,)

[NotDumbEnough]

Probably one of the less obscure observations, but Unbending and upgrades only work with hit-based damage and not DoTs, nor does it work with self damage I think (does not work with Blood Mage's sacrifice). If you're looking for a way to mitigate a Paladin's Sacred Immolation damage, just bring a priest or another paladin and use them to suppress the DoT until the fight is over. Conveniently, Paladins also get a soulbound weapon that suspends hostile effects on kill.

Speaking of suspending hostile effects, you can have a lot of fun with Forbidden Fist in a similar way. You can use the Fist to your heart's content while your debuffs are suppressed, though you can quickly build up DoT ticks of several hundred damage that will kill you instantly afterwards, so you need Barring Death's Door to survive that. Still, if you can end the fight fast enough, you can deal insane amounts of damage. For me I was playing a Death Godlike Streetfighter/Forbidden Fist which dealt extreme damage by first building up the debuff stacks with Xoti's help in suppressing them, and then murdering everyone while I was at 1 hp.

[Not So Clever Hound]

New fail for me: Plague of Insects is secretly keyworded as Poison, but it does not benefit from the +2PL to Poison effects from Spider Silk Robe.... 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound