A bit of Advice mid-run through party POTD/Ironman

[Torm51]

4 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

TBF that's a running joke in Deadfire:

"Gosh, I really overdid it piling up all these defenses, now I'm a quasi-god and any additional defense would be essentially useless".

5 minutes later "oh damn, those nagas can reach an ACC of 150 ! And that dragon too! and that one.. and.. I need more defenses for the next run."

And then you forget the next time . The only useful mantra: there is no such thing as too much defense on PotD.

Ya that’s true and you’ll notice on some post I made recently. I thought I was safe at Hosongo with like 94 deflection and I got shot to pieces by the ranged Naga and they were Crits! I was only like level 8 but I thought I was good…you are definitely right lol. I guess the question is then what’s the dig on Crusader for too much defense? I see that a lot.  Maybe those comments are for solo or non. POTD? Dunno.  If you can never have too much defense then a party tank like a Crusader is good no? Lol I don’t know.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Torm51

[Not So Clever Hound]

14 minutes ago, Torm51 said:

I guess the question is then what’s the dig on Crusader for too much defense? I see that a lot.

Yeah probably the difficulty setting matters a great deal, and I guess whether folks venture in higher level areas or not in their playthrough. Also if people get to high level with minimal fighting then go fight a lvl 5 encounter with all defenses at 150+, sure... they might feel that high defenses are useless. Then one should go do the end fights of SSS and FS and then we can rediscuss .

Bottom line IMHO: on anything PotD, if party strategy involves one or more "traditional" tanks, they can't have enough defense.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Boeroer]

I guess it depends how you like to play. Some players like slow encounters and some like it fast. Crusader tanks cater to the first group.

[Haplok]

Maybe not so much "too much defenses" as "more then necessary" - given use of CC, presence of offtanks, decent killing speed - and opportunity losses on not taking a more aggressive class instead.

Been critted and taken a lot of damage myself. The only instances I've felt my chars unkillable/immortal (when fighting level appropriate challenges) were when using Unbending - preferably extended in some way.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Haplok

[Torm51]

2 hours ago, Haplok said:

Maybe not so much "too much defenses" as "more then necessary" - given use of CC, presence of offtanks, decent killing speed - and opportunity losses on not taking a more aggressive class instead.

Been critted and taken a lot of damage myself. The only instances I've felt my chars unkillable/immortal (when fighting level appropriate challenges) were when using Unbending - preferably extended in some way.

Definitely, I’m running one tank, one melee damage dealer while everyone else is ranged (Xoti pistol and her Lantern) Aloth (Black bow build) and a custom Scout. I pop out of stealth with the Crusader and let everything mob him while the back group buffs.  I play the  custom monk on the edges of the group the Crusader is fighting so she doesn’t fight too many at once.  I guess it’s style.

 

The group can punch  a bit above it’s weight at this point.  Defeated that Ancient Lich Battlemage one  level early and the Fampyr cave as well so not bad so far.

 

PS I’m with you on that the more melee you run the worse a traditional type tank is. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Torm51

[Torm51]

I don’t know if I should take overbearing guard.  I’m getting a lot of disengagement attacks because of Aloth’s Black Bow terrorizing, since On the Crusader I went with Unbroken his disengagement hits hard…it will just hit harder. So maybe?

[Not So Clever Hound]

I've wondered about the impact of this ability too in past playthroughs.

On one hand its free extra DMG on those juicy disengagement attacks. On the other hand, with your kind of set up it's a bit of a win-more: if you're able to terrify your foes like that via Ryngrim spells or Caedbald Bow (potentially x2 with Phantom) you've basically won the encounter in most cases.

The key question is: if you don't take this ability, what would you consider taking instead?

Edited August 6, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Torm51]

55 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

I've wondered about the impact of this ability too in past playthroughs.

On one hand its free extra DMG on those juicy disengagement attacks. On the other hand, with your kind of set up it's a bit of a win-more: if you're able to terrify your foes like that via Ryngrim spells or Caedbald Bow (potentially x2 with Phantom) you've basically won the encounter in most cases.

The key question is: if you don't take this ability, what would you consider taking instead?

Ya I’m with you on this one, it is a win more type situation. I’m not sure I will have room for it at 20 so it might not even be a thought. Not sure.  I’m unsure on Unbending as I don’t need it atm but maybe it will be good for when I try SI.  If I take Unbening I’ll take Unbening trunk and Stoic steel at 20.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Torm51

[Elric Galad]

34 minutes ago, Torm51 said:

 If I take Unbening I’ll take Unbening trunk and Stoic steel at 20.

Just don't take Unbending Trunk (unless using my mod  )

It's totally an overkill because of the weird way Unbending works :

 

 

Basically, regular Unbending or Unbending Shield are far enough to keep you alive and will most likely overheal damages. Especially if you stand in a Fire Wall. If you want an upgrade, go Unbending Shield.

[Torm51]

Thanks Elric, after this final vanilla play through I’m installing your mod! And the community fixes right, I’ve heard it’s good.

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Torm51 said:

Thanks Elric, after this final vanilla play through I’m installing your mod! And the community fixes right, I’ve heard it’s good.

Yeah, they are meant to be used together. I've only tested my mod with community patch installed.

[Torm51]

Excellent stuff!

[Ranndar]

@Torm51let me ask you, since you looks like a crusader fan.

I always used to play as main tank , but in Deadfire I didn’t this yet, because I saw some people telling that is boring.

I am planning a custom group run, and still hadn’t decided what I will choose. My question about the crusader is: is he capable to do damage, help the group in another way or he is just a wall? I would appreciate any advices to build one tank but with some utilities tongue group

[Torm51]

4 minutes ago, Ranndar said:

@Torm51let me ask you, since you looks like a crusader fan.

I always used to play as main tank , but in Deadfire I didn’t this yet, because I saw some people telling that is boring.

I am planning a custom group run, and still hadn’t decided what I will choose. My question about the crusader is: is he capable to do damage, help the group in another way or he is just a wall? I would appreciate any advices to build one tank but with some utilities tongue group

Well Randar I will be honest here. The Crusader classic type tank with a weapon and shield is first and foremost a wall.  The melee damage is passable for a tank once you get good items and if you have high PER (POTD difficulty).  That said if you wear a shield your melee damage will never be good unless you are terrorizing enemies you are engaged with and hitting disengagement attacks (which I do) or you go with a Riposte build (Crusader can do this but Holy slayer/ other rogue Multi class are better at it).

 

Support: For group support I think they are good.  Lay on Hands, Exalted Endurance are huge.  Also Charge is sneaky good for support, it makes you mobile and lets you interrupt on the fly should anything get past you (for POTD have high PER) You can then reengage and the bad guys will not disengage.   Other tank multi class like Herald or Holy Slayer Riposte or Liberator brings more support but they cannot tank like a Crusader (Vigorous and refreshing defense plus the passives) if your strategy is heavy ranged damage and ranged CC I think Crusader tank is best while providing good support. 

 At end of the day if you run a lot of ranged damage dealers being a wall is ok that’s what you want for that parties tank. If you run multiple melee damage dealers a Crusader tank is not worth it IMO he will not be tanking anything and has less support than a Herald.   In melee damage heave parties a two handed Crusader or duel wield I think brings more to the team.
 

Damage: That said I am not level 20 yet and I am planning on taking Sacred Immolation. The VAST if not all of the Crusader builds don’t take SI because it does a lot of self damage and they used most of their damage zeal on FoD (rightfully so).  I had SI on a pure Paladin (I know they stink) on POTD/Ironman run and he was second in damage after the monk and I beat the game twice with it on the hardest difficulty doing every encounter.  
 

I feel that the Crusader has more tools to keep himself a live in combat while using SI.   with the right items and abilities a Crusader  can have a PL 9 Sacred Immolation in terms of damage. So give me about a day or two and I will report back.  

[Ranndar]

Thanks for the vast explanation.

I was thinking in use a Cleric for tank/support, maybe Unbroken/Wael or Unbroken/Eothas. Wael would be good to do the terrifie trick, what do you think?

[Torm51]

My knowledge of Templar is low.  The negative I heard about it from @theleeis that most templars sit there and cast but don’t have time for anything else but he also said that Wael snd Eothas are good templars Wael because a lot the spells are quick Cast. I have heard much better things about Clerics, so I would lean to Cleric.  I am not an expert on these classes though.

[Boeroer]

I wrote in some other thread that you can also build a damage-oriented Crusader who does good damage (iirc I did some 170+ dmg hits with a Devoted/Bleak Walker with great sword bc. of the combination of lashes and Inspired Beacon - not to mention Sacred Immolation) and is still very sturdy (not main tank level of sturdy but very sturdy for a damage dealer). That's not boring at all imo. 

Sure, if you put everything into defenses it becomes a very passive character - but still very useful imo. 

[Torm51]

100% correct.

[Ranndar]

7 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I wrote in some other thread that you can also build a damage-oriented Crusader who does good damage (iirc I did some 170+ dmg hits with a Devoted/Bleak Walker with great sword bc. of the combination of lashes and Inspired Beacon - not to mention Sacred Immolation) and is still very sturdy (not main tank level of sturdy but very sturdy for a damage dealer). That's not boring at all imo. 

Sure, if you put everything into defenses it becomes a very passive character - but still very useful imo. 

I was about to think about this combination… Greatswords will be the best weapon?

[Boeroer]

I just took Great Swords to get the highest melee dmg numbers per hit. Any melee weapon setup might work well.

Great Sword is not a bad pick for Devoted though because it has two damage types and good uniques and the +2 PEN helps with the Great Sword's rather lousy base PEN. Morning Star and Pollaxe would be good, too. I personally love Morning Stars - especially with Mule Kick and Clear Out. Both target Fortitude and the Morning Star lowers that defense considerably.  But a dual weapon setup might also be nice. Didn't try though. 

[Ranndar]

I thought dual wield swords, because FoD are full attacks, and if I need I can use a shield.

[Torm51]

Hey guys @Not So Clever Hound @Boeroer @Elric Galad finally got to Sacred Immolation on this Crusader.  It is better than I thought to be honest, it turns the tank into a capable AOE damage dealer, with 14 base INT Bronlar's smart buff bringing you to 19 INT and THEN firing off Tactical Barrage you have a much longer Barrage and gain one PL for SI combined with the Magran axe that gives you 2 fire PLs.  SI starts hitting really hard and has good PEN (took Scion of Flame as well).  Also as a Crusader you can just shrug off the SI damage pretty easily even if you have good Might like I do.  Rapid Recovery, Exalted Endurance (I have a priest with Devotions of the Faithful for increased ACC), Tough and Lay on Hands.  Most of the time LoH is not necessary as I am using void ward and I have good resolve (I basically took the resolve for the increased returns in deflection but the reduction in afflictions helps).  The reduction is even less with Khapa Tea but I am eating Hot Razor skewers instead for more PL increase because the Crusader is so beefy (is there a cap on PL increase?). 

I am using SI even on boss fights (POTD of course) the damage is not dangerous to a Crusader at all, especially one with a large shield and Refreshing defense, Grazes and hits keep Refreshing Defense up and incoming damage is low. So the self damage never really helps the enemy.  I am able to reliably hit with SI because I have maxed PER, Fighter Tactical Barrage and Devotions of the Faithful guarantees hits.  If solo a large shield will be tougher to use or you would have to use Zealous Focus and heal yourself another way.

No zeal issues at all with this build imo on a tank using a shield, FoD is pretty MEH unless you are using shared flames and the majority of the party is ranged, with Shared flames AOE being so small imo it was not worth.  I feel like most crusader builds the majority of the zeal is eaten by spamming FoD (maybe i am wrong).  With this build the vast majority of your zeal goes to LoH and SI, and Sworn Rival (Goldpact Knight) but I always get the zeal for Sworn Rival refunded when the target goes down.

ONE HUGE CON to SI as a Crusader:  You have to wait to level 19.

 

All in all you definitely do not have to take SI on a crusader and I think maybe its not worth on a 2handed or DW melee damage dealer crusader as a lot of your zeal is spent on spamming FoD (maybe its worth to have for AOE situations? I dont know) but on a party tank who is only using zeal for LoH and Sworn Rival? I think its good if you Max PER for large shield users, medium shield can get away with less PER and buckler users i dont think need PER with disciplined barrage (party play) (possible good synergy with the Outworn Buckler here).

Edited August 11, 2021 by Torm51

[Not So Clever Hound]

Great, thanks for sharing @Torm51!

8 hours ago, Torm51 said:

is there a cap on PL increase?

I don't think so, by any chance have you checked that Hot Razor Skewers and Tactical Barrage PLs stack properly? There is a thing with foods that their effects are considered Active unless you save/reload - then it becomes a Passive that can stack with other similar effects... Just curious if it works properly right off the bat on your ToI run.

8 hours ago, Torm51 said:

I feel like most crusader builds the majority of the zeal is eaten by spamming FoD (maybe i am wrong)

I think you're right and to reiterate, I really like that you don't take FoD on this toon which positively shakes up the typical resource allocation of a Pally/Crusader!

[Elric Galad]

9 hours ago, Torm51 said:

Hey guys @Not So Clever Hound @Boeroer @Elric Galad finally got to Sacred Immolation on this Crusader.  It is better than I thought to be honest, it turns the tank into a capable AOE damage dealer, with 14 base INT Bronlar's smart buff bringing you to 19 INT and THEN firing off Tactical Barrage you have a much longer Barrage and gain one PL for SI combined with the Magran axe that gives you 2 fire PLs.  SI starts hitting really hard and has good PEN (took Scion of Flame as well).  Also as a Crusader you can just shrug off the SI damage pretty easily even if you have good Might like I do.  Rapid Recovery, Exalted Endurance (I have a priest with Devotions of the Faithful for increased ACC), Tough and Lay on Hands.  Most of the time LoH is not necessary as I am using void ward and I have good resolve (I basically took the resolve for the increased returns in deflection but the reduction in afflictions helps).  The reduction is even less with Khapa Tea but I am eating Hot Razor skewers instead for more PL increase because the Crusader is so beefy (is there a cap on PL increase?). 

I am using SI even on boss fights (POTD of course) the damage is not dangerous to a Crusader at all, especially one with a large shield and Refreshing defense, Grazes and hits keep Refreshing Defense up and incoming damage is low. So the self damage never really helps the enemy.  I am able to reliably hit with SI because I have maxed PER, Fighter Tactical Barrage and Devotions of the Faithful guarantees hits.  If solo a large shield will be tougher to use or you would have to use Zealous Focus and heal yourself another way.

No zeal issues at all with this build imo on a tank using a shield, FoD is pretty MEH unless you are using shared flames and the majority of the party is ranged, with Shared flames AOE being so small imo it was not worth.  I feel like most crusader builds the majority of the zeal is eaten by spamming FoD (maybe i am wrong).  With this build the vast majority of your zeal goes to LoH and SI, and Sworn Rival (Goldpact Knight) but I always get the zeal for Sworn Rival refunded when the target goes down.

ONE HUGE CON to SI as a Crusader:  You have to wait to level 19.

 

All in all you definitely do not have to take SI on a crusader and I think maybe its not worth on a 2handed or DW melee damage dealer crusader as a lot of your zeal is spent on spamming FoD (maybe its worth to have for AOE situations? I dont know) but on a party tank who is only using zeal for LoH and Sworn Rival? I think its good if you Max PER for large shield users, medium shield can get away with less PER and buckler users i dont think need PER with disciplined barrage (party play) (possible good synergy with the Outworn Buckler here).

Well, yes, but there is a huge opportunity cost to be able to use SI without too much inconvenience : you play with High CON (so less points for offensive, a bit less a problem for Main character with Berath Blessing, but still) and one of the tankiest MC.

Also, you want to use zeal mostly for offense. Well, that means you don't need zeal for support abilities. How to spam exhortations, beacons then ? Basically you don't need zeal because beyond Tier 1 (which are cheap and possibly refunded - again choosing specifically Goldpact makes the whole build more sustainable), most paladin active abilities are bad. SI is overcosted, but at least does something fairly significant. Sacred Immolation does respectable damages to foes (with good PEN), that has never been the problem. Additional Zeal costs Ability points, equipment slots, Brilliant support etc...

Also Zeal overcost is much more a problem when going Single Class. Unless playing with Divine Retribution and the right party, but then reducing zeal cost isn't significant anymore (especially since SI can't be cast unless previous one is over). 

 

About PL cap : No cap, but active effects are not supposed to cap. I'm saying "supposed" because Saving/Loading apparently makes food bonus stackable...

[Boeroer]

There's no Power Level cap.

Speaking of FoD... I think in my next run I want to try a SC Kind Wayfarer with a Chanter in the party (for unlimited Zeal). I could just trigger SI and then spam FoD endlessly for healing and damage - which should be really easy to setup in AI as a "hands-off" type of character. I find that I forget my fifth party members more and more often so maybe it's time for a bot.  Don't know yet whether ranged or melee weapons... but dual wielding I think.