A Fifth of Coronavirus

[Raithe]

[teknoman2]

i heard there was an official announcement from the Israeli government that they will stop administering the 3rd dose of the pfizer vaccine because so far it causes very serious side effects with a 3% mortality rate

[BruceVC]

48 minutes ago, teknoman2 said:

i heard there was an official announcement from the Israeli government that they will stop administering the 3rd dose of the pfizer vaccine because so far it causes very serious side effects with a 3% mortality rate

Any links you can share about this potential development?

[teknoman2]

i was listening to the news on the radio while at work when they reported that so i have no online link about it. it could have been an exaggerated rumor (the media's favorite kind of news) but i didn't really look into it

[BruceVC]

14 minutes ago, teknoman2 said:

i was listening to the news on the radio while at work when they reported that so i have no online link about it. it could have been an exaggerated rumor (the media's favorite kind of news) but i didn't really look into it

If you do find anything please share because its a very worrying potential development 

[teknoman2]

what i do know for sure (as i've seen the interviews on tv) is that many very prominent doctors and medical researchers here in Greece are advocating against vaccination and are questioning the numbers presented by many governments when it comes to the number of dead and infected as they don't match with both the local and international research data. The first thing they say about the vaccines is that as more people get vaccinated and more data flows in, the lower the efficacy gets. Pfizer says their vaccine has a 96% efficacy but current data on vaccinated people shows that 46% of those vaccinated with both doses can still get sick enough to need hospitalization. Also, recent autopsy reports show that many covid victims didn't die of covid itself but from other infections that they contracted in the hospitals while their body was weakened.

[Elerond]

there are almost 3 million people here who have had bot dozes of Pfizer and none of them are hospitalized and they have very few cases of corona infection. 

there is about 2 million people who have had one doze of Pfizer and they make about half of new covid cases, but less than 10 of them are hospitalized but none needed intensive care

There are about million people who don't have any dozes and the make second half of new covid cases and they make 99% of hospitalized people and 100% of those in intensive care

105 (82 pfizer, 14 AZ and 9 moderna, which matches with relation which said vaccines has been given to people) people who have had vaccine have died, 63 of them were over 80 years old. 31 were between 60-80 and 11 less than 60 years old.

All the people who have died have had some previous disease that has been major factor of why said people have died, but in 35 cases it can be said for sure if symptoms (fever etc.) caused vaccine didn't factor in why person died.

In comparison there has been 117 982 verified cases of covid from which 1003 has caused person's death.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Elerond

[BruceVC]

39 minutes ago, Elerond said:

there are almost 3 million people here who have had bot dozes of Pfizer and none of them are hospitalized and they have very few cases of corona infection. 

there is about 2 million people who have had one doze of Pfizer and they make about half of new covid cases, but less than 10 of them are hospitalized but none needed intensive care

There are about million people who don't have any dozes and the make second half of new covid cases and they make 99% of hospitalized people and 100% of those in intensive care

105 (82 pfizer, 14 AZ and 9 moderna, which matches with relation which said vaccines has been given to people) people who have had vaccine have died, 63 of them were over 80 years old. 31 were between 60-80 and 11 less than 60 years old.

All the people who have died have had some previous disease that has been major factor of why said people have died, but in 35 cases it can be said for sure if symptoms (fever etc.) caused vaccine didn't factor in why person died.

In comparison there has been 117 982 verified cases of covid from which 1003 has caused person's death.

Good post Elerond and we appreciate your point being made on the facts and data  as we know them 

 

[Gfted1]

One of the jokes around here is that every gunshot victim dies of Covid.

[teknoman2]

today, a man who was perfectly healthy and had both jabs died of covid here.

CDC posted a report (and for some reason it was labeled fake news on twitter) that said that vaccinated people are at the same risk of getting infected and infecting others as unvaccinated. the same report was posted by the british version of CDC and many of the EU countries' similar agencies confirmed the results. so it is officially confirmed that the vaccines cannot and will not stop the spread of the virus and if the virus spreads, mutations will follow. at this rate we will have to get vaccinated every few months when a new mutation appears that is not affected by current vaccines... or we will just end up labeling covid19 as just another flu and forget about it

meanwhile the government here is not making vaccines straight up mandatory because they know there will be lawsuits to follow any case of serious side effects but they are coming up with increasingly inventive ways to push them on the unwilling or just skeptical parts of the population. stuff like you have to do 1 rapid test every week (payed in full by you) or both you and your employer will pay a fine. 

oh and FDA as well as most similar agencies around the world gave the vaccine emergency use approval, which means the vaccines have not gone through the regular procedures that any medication needs to go through to be approved for public use. also, by watching the news timeline you can see that covid started spreading mid febuary 2020 and by november 20 the FDA had the first vaccine brought for approval, which it got on december 11. this is beyond record time to research an (allegedly) "new and unknown" virus, make a vaccine, test it effectively and get it approved for general use.

https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedness-and-response/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/covid-19-vaccines#eua-vaccines

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by teknoman2

[Elerond]

Quote

oh and FDA as well as most similar agencies around the world gave the vaccine emergency use approval, which means the vaccines have not gone through the regular procedures that any medication needs to go through to be approved for public use.

This is not true. Covid vaccine have gone more comprehensive testing than most of the medication you have ever used, compared to flu vaccine for example testing and approval process was more comprehensive, demanded effectiveness was multiple times higher. Reason why covid vaccines need emergency approval is that new medication needs to be on market 5-10 years before it gets regular approval, because FDA, EMA etc. are quite paranoid about long term effects of medicines.

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, teknoman2 said:

CDC posted a report (and for some reason it was labeled fake news on twitter) that said that vaccinated people are at the same risk of getting infected and infecting others as unvaccinated. the same report was posted by the british version of CDC and many of the EU countries' similar agencies confirmed the results.

Have a link to this report ?

[Zoraptor]

That actually does exist as a statement, kind of, though the specific interpretation of the statement is definitely and clearly misinformation rather than contextually correct:

Quote

Fully vaccinated people with Delta variant breakthrough infections can spread the virus to others. However, vaccinated people appear to be infectious for a shorter period: Previous variants typically produced less virus in the body of infected fully vaccinated people (breakthrough infections) than in unvaccinated people. In contrast, the Delta variant seems to produce the same high amount of virus in both unvaccinated and fully vaccinated people. However, like other variants, the amount of virus produced by Delta breakthrough infections in fully vaccinated people also goes down faster than infections in unvaccinated people. This means fully vaccinated people are likely infectious for less time than unvaccinated people.

[source]

So it's "In contrast, the Delta variant seems to produce the same high amount of virus in both unvaccinated and fully vaccinated people" being taken as an isolated statement out of context.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Zoraptor

[teknoman2]

1 hour ago, Elerond said:

This is not true. Covid vaccine have gone more comprehensive testing than most of the medication you have ever used, compared to flu vaccine for example testing and approval process was more comprehensive, demanded effectiveness was multiple times higher. Reason why covid vaccines need emergency approval is that new medication needs to be on market 5-10 years before it gets regular approval, because FDA, EMA etc. are quite paranoid about long term effects of medicines.

so, the same people who can't come up with a vaccine for other viruses that have been around for decades have researched a brand new virus, came up with a vaccine, tested it thoroughly and got enough data to get it approved in just 10 months? i'm not a medical researcher and i don't know how they do their job but it feels more like a feat of conjuration than a product of thorough scientific research. unless of course the virus was not new because, as we all know, it takes about 14 days from infection to full recovery in mild cases which means antibodies are formed a few days after the infection. however, according to virology textbooks, when a human gets infected with a virus his immune system has never met, it takes almost a month for antibodies to form and this is why new viruses always have a high mortality rate.

also, here's a source on the vaccine effectiveness. i guess the 1d6+3 joke i made about the duration of the vaccine's effects is not too far off.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta

the thing is that this batch of vaccines is simply buying time and they are not the salvation they were (and still are) advertised to be, if they were there would be no 3rd and maybe eventually 4th or 5th dose. as for the most common reason people get vaccinated here? they want to go to a soccer game and unvaccinated people are not allowed in the stadium. very few get the jab because they care about getting sick, they do it to avoid the restrictions... which is the worst reason possible as it undermines the medical value of vaccinations in general.

Edited August 16, 2021 by teknoman2

[Zoraptor]

You can make a vaccine that theoretically works in an afternoon- that's literally how long it took to do the theory on the Oxford vaccine, literally on a napkin. It's always the trials that take the time.

Most big name viruses have a vaccine unless they're too mild or rare to care about, HIV would be the biggest one that doesn't, but that's also an unusual virus in that it specifically targets the immune system itself.

The directed response to a novel pathogen (eg a new virus) takes time, that's why vaccines exist since they stimulate the immune system, and make it so the pathogen is recognised. It's also why vaccines don't work immediately. It would be incorrect to say that there's no immune response prior to that though, there's a swag load of responses you inherently get to anything new (including things like pus around wooden splinters), they're just not directed specifically at it and thus less efficient.

[majestic]

Quote

His message was meant for his fellow Israelis, but it is a warning to the world. Israel has among the world’s highest levels of vaccination for COVID-19, with 78% of those 12 and older fully vaccinated, the vast majority with the Pfizer vaccine. Yet the country is now logging one of the world’s highest infection rates, with nearly 650 new cases daily per million people. More than half are in fully vaccinated people, underscoring the extraordinary transmissibility of the Delta variant and stoking concerns that the benefits of vaccination ebb over time.

Math is hard, I guess. 78% vaccinated, but those account for 50% (or slightly more) of all new cases - new cases, mind, not hospitalizations. That still means you're ~3.5 times* more likely to contract delta without vaccination, and the data for hospitalization and intensive care looks even better in favor of the vaccine.

Not sure where the problem is, to be honest - and that's with being innoculated against the much less infectuous original variant.

A booster shot might or might not be needed for certain groups to keep hospitalization and IC rates low, but I don't really see the issue (aside from having one available). I'm living in a major high risk TBE area and have been getting booster shots every now and then for as long as I can remember, and the initial immunization comes with three shots, two a month apart and one after 5 to 12 months.

Woo, scary, vaccinations with booster shots.

*Leaving out the children under 12, for now, which means it's probably a little lower than that, but eh, good enough for demonstration purposes.

Edited August 17, 2021 by majestic

[rjshae]

2 hours ago, teknoman2 said:

the thing is that this batch of vaccines is simply buying time and they are not the salvation they were (and still are) advertised to be, if they were there would be no 3rd and maybe eventually 4th or 5th dose. as for the most common reason people get vaccinated here? they want to go to a soccer game and unvaccinated people are not allowed in the stadium. very few get the jab because they care about getting sick, they do it to avoid the restrictions... which is the worst reason possible as it undermines the medical value of vaccinations in general.

I think the medical community still needs to better clarify what is meant by "effectiveness". There's effectiveness against infection and effectiveness against hospitalization. The (Russian-supported) anti-vaxxers tend to focus on the former. But the latter is what keeps your ICU beds from running out and leaving unhospitalized people dying at home.

[Gorth]

Several people (wrongly) assume that the vaccines are new. BioNTech had a decade of research already with the mRNA technology. The only thing "new" is they've repurposed it from it's intended cancer treatment to Covid treatment. We're talking about "adjustments", not innovation. Pfizer shareholders don't appear too unhappy by mass producing BioNTech's Covid vaccine instead of Viagra.

 

Edit: The change of BioNTech's focus was probably helped a bit by some non-trivial monetary incentives from Mama Merkel. Unlike say HIV virus, Covid not only harms individuals, it hurts business. Most problems can be solved if you through enough resources at it. Humanity has so much potential locked behind a wall of stupidity.

[BruceVC]

9 hours ago, teknoman2 said:

today, a man who was perfectly healthy and had both jabs died of covid here.

 

 

But what is a fact about all vaccines is it is possible for any vaccine, not just Corona, to cause negative effects and even kill you. Its very rare ....very rare but its a risk

10 years ago the company I worked for did lots of consultancy in Africa and the ME. When you travel to countries like Nigeria it is mandatory at the airport to produce various vaccine certifications like Yellow Fever. Anyway my MD at the time was visiting Nigeria to see numerous customers and our Nigerian partner but he hadnt taken his Yellow Fever vaccine 

Because he was at Lagos airport and on a business trip he was offered  this vaccine as convenience, he did this and departed the airport. 2 hours after leaving the airport he started sweating and ended up in a coma and being airlifted back to SA. He  spent over  3 months in hospital and had to teach himself to speak again and obviously never worked in corporate effectively again

He had a bad reaction to the Yellow Fever vaccine. It was very rare and no one I know, including me, ever had a bad reaction to this vaccine. So I do agree with you that it is possible a vaccine can have adverse and serious effects to you but its so rare and statistically an anomaly

And the benefits to all vaccines outweigh the negative and possible side effects 

 

[BruceVC]

https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news/2244907-new-zealand-enters-snap-lockdown-as-delta-emerges

@Zoraptor

I cannot believe how your government has failed to stop the virus.....you guys must be furious with your one confirmed case ?

What are  you  planning to do in response to this egregious outcome , I imagine you will be demanding your PM resigns or is prosecuted for failing to do her job?

Oh...and welcome to the global club of the spread of the pandemic ....never forget vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate 

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by BruceVC

[teknoman2]

7 hours ago, rjshae said:

I think the medical community still needs to better clarify what is meant by "effectiveness". There's effectiveness against infection and effectiveness against hospitalization. The (Russian-supported) anti-vaxxers tend to focus on the former. But the latter is what keeps your ICU beds from running out and leaving unhospitalized people dying at home.

its not the medical community but the media and governments that are at fault here. most of what they spew about vaccines is positive misinformation like eradicating covid through vaccination and the immunity wall myth. covid and it's vaccines are like the flu and it's vaccines, no matter how many people get vaccinated the virus won't go away and the vaccines' effects don't provide lasting immunity. sooner or later we will be back at square 1 unless we get regular booster shots. 

[teknoman2]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

But what is a fact about all vaccines is it is possible for any vaccine, not just Corona, to cause negative effects and even kill you. Its very rare ....very rare but its a risk

10 years ago the company I worked for did lots of consultancy in Africa and the ME. When you travel to countries like Nigeria it is mandatory at the airport to produce various vaccine certifications like Yellow Fever. Anyway my MD at the time was visiting Nigeria to see numerous customers and our Nigerian partner but he hadnt taken his Yellow Fever vaccine 

Because he was at Lagos airport and on a business trip he was offered  this vaccine as convenience, he did this and departed the airport. 2 hours after leaving the airport he started sweating and ended up in a coma and being airlifted back to SA. He  spent over  3 months in hospital and had to teach himself to speak again and obviously never worked in corporate effectively again

He had a bad reaction to the Yellow Fever vaccine. It was very rare and no one I know, including me, ever had a bad reaction to this vaccine. So I do agree with you that it is possible a vaccine can have adverse and serious effects to you but its so rare and statistically an anomaly

And the benefits to all vaccines outweigh the negative and possible side effects 

 

everything has a risk, even by getting off the bed in the morning you risk tripping and hitting your head. the thing with covid is how the whole thing was handled by governments and the media.

here's how it went here

we start with a terror campaign, we follow with a failing healthcare system that gets no help, we proceed with lockdowns and more "we're all gonna die", we use the fear as an excuse for authoritarian reforms, we drop a big chunk of the population in poverty by keeping their businesses closed for months until they file for bankruptcy, we implement stupid regulations and we impose ridiculous fines (like no more than 2 people in car even if they are the same family, meaning a mother of 2 can't have both her children in the car with her or she gets fined) with the excuse of stopping the spread we completely and shamelessly ignore the rules that we imposed on everyone else, we cross our arms and just wait for the vaccine, as soon as the vaccine is here we provide complete legal immunity to everyone involved in the vaccination process (from the producing company to the nurse who gives the shot including every member of the government), we give to the media for a pro vaccine campaign all the money we didn't give to the hospitals during the time when they needed them the most and because people (surprisingly) dont trust us after this "successful" handling of the situation, we proceed to use extortion to get them to vaccinate. meanwhile the constitution of the country has become a piece of toilet paper 

[BruceVC]

14 minutes ago, teknoman2 said:

everything has a risk, even by getting off the bed in the morning you risk tripping and hitting your head. the thing with covid is how the whole thing was handled by governments and the media.

here's how it went here

we start with a terror campaign, we follow with a failing healthcare system that gets no help, we proceed with lockdowns and more "we're all gonna die", we use the fear as an excuse for authoritarian reforms, we drop a big chunk of the population in poverty by keeping their businesses closed for months until they file for bankruptcy, we implement stupid regulations and we impose ridiculous fines (like no more than 2 people in car even if they are the same family, meaning a mother of 2 can't have both her children in the car with her or she gets fined) with the excuse of stopping the spread we completely and shamelessly ignore the rules that we imposed on everyone else, we cross our arms and just wait for the vaccine, as soon as the vaccine is here we provide complete legal immunity to everyone involved in the vaccination process (from the producing company to the nurse who gives the shot including every member of the government), we give to the media for a pro vaccine campaign all the money we didn't give to the hospitals during the time when they needed them the most and because people (surprisingly) dont trust us after this "successful" handling of the situation, we proceed to use extortion to get them to vaccinate. meanwhile the constitution of the country has become a piece of toilet paper 

You make some accurate observations especially around the various responses to the pandemic in our countries. I agree with the hugely negative impact the lockdowns have had on all our economies and what frustrates me the most about the lockdowns is its the private sector that has suffered the most with retrenchments and salary cuts and yet its the private sector that effectively drives the economy 

I dont know about Greece but in SA no one in government or the public sector has been retrenched or had salary cuts....in fact our public sector unions are still demanding double inflation salary increases and bonuses 

[Elerond]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

You make some accurate observations especially around the various responses to the pandemic in our countries. I agree with the hugely negative impact the lockdowns have had on all our economies and what frustrates me the most about the lockdowns is its the private sector that has suffered the most with retrenchments and salary cuts and yet its the private sector that effectively drives the economy 

I dont know about Greece but in SA no one in government or the public sector has been retrenched or had salary cuts....in fact our public sector unions are still demanding double inflation salary increases and bonuses 

Lockdowns have been hard for certain sectors, but as general private sectors and economy is doing better than it did in 2019 in all over the world. Of course main reason for this is massive covid assistance programs launched by governments and institutions all over the world.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Elerond

[Amentep]

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