Rework idea for Barring Death's Door

[lewis_cb]

Hi guys,

I thought I could write a separate post to make this suggestion. Not sure you will like it but I hope it sounds interesting to you as it does to me. Thinking about wounds, I have been wondering ...

What if BDD was reworked in a way that you still survive if your HP reaches 0 but every time this happens you get a wound (the one corresponding to the attack that was lethal) and if it is the 4th wound you die instead?

To avoid getting 4 wounds too quickly and instadie with sth silly like Minoletta Minor Missiles, every time your HP reaches 0, BDD could either reset your HP to 50-100 HP or give you very brief immortality (not invulnerability because you should still be affected by debuffs). Thinking about it I like the 2nd option more, like 3 secs immortality.

What do you guys think? do you like the idea? this could encourage you to carry 20 Adra Potions in your quick slots and survive max 60 deaths (lol, better pay attention to your wounds!), or encourage you to try to counterplay and heal yourself and keep your HP high whenever possible.

(All of this assuming that currently you don´t die even if an enemy specifically causes you a 4th wound, which looks correct according to this clip with Belranga at 2:03:35)

 

Edited March 20, 2021 by lewis_cb

[Boeroer]

Cool in general but this sounds a bit too complicated to explain to the average player. 

I would suggest: Barring Deaths Door will prevent knockout and injury and heal you up to full and then immediately ends.  

That way: no abuse with time warping effects like SoT and Wall of Draining. 

If you add an injury it's pretty bad if you want to save fellows who already are severely injured. 

Or instead: one could add a debuff until rest instead of an injury. Like "Mark of Berath" which gives you +recovery time every time you should have gotten knocked out during BDD. Or -x% healing received. Hey this could explain how people turn into Death Guards. Once you reach -100% from this effect you'll be a Death Guard. 

Edited March 20, 2021 by Boeroer

[Bosmer]

36 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

 

I would suggest: Barring Deaths Door will prevent knockout and injury and heal you up to full and then immediately ends.  

That way: no abuse with time warping effects like SoT and Wall of Draining. 

 

That would be a clean solution, but aren‘t there any high hp enemies or bosses that use this ability? Would definitely make these encounters more challenging   
another alternative would be to apply a strong debuff while bdd is active: for example -50% action speed or similar.. 

[Elric Galad]

Very good thread idea.

An important thing to note is that Shieldbearer gets an equivalent ability. This is an auto upgrade of Lay on Hand so is meant to be a strict improvement from base Lay on Hand. I think both abilities shall get a similar fix. 

"every time fatal damages happens" is tricky to code. A %health threshold combined with "on damaged" event could do the trick. Wouldn't work on DoT but could be close enough.

I'm not sure about adding Wounds. It would make the ability crappy. Maybe with a %chance to happen ?

Proposal 1 : 10% chances of getting a wound when damaged under 5% health.

Proposal 2 : -4s duration of Prevent Death effect when damaged under 5% health.

Both could require a small upgrade to Base duration.

[Elric Galad]

Proposal 3 : could also be an auto resurrection upon death. Easy to implement and pretty safe from combo.

Becoming a Deathguard is an honour for Breath's faithful servants, not a punishment for trying to trick her.

I would not super fond of a single target Watchful presence effect. It would also make priest a bit too good as single target healer, which they are not at the moment.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

54 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Becoming a Deathguard is an honour for Breath's faithful servants, not a punishment for trying to trick her.

Tell that to Lucia Rivan. It seems that Death Guards don't necessarily have to be on good terms with Berath. Only that their will is strong enough to defy death when it's supposed to come. 

+50% Action/Recovery debuff is easy, elegant and good since it discourages time stuff/prolonging shenanigans. But once you couple it with Blade Cascade we're back at 0.

I actually quite like the Death Guard idea (it's my own after all, hehe, #selflove). Not that it has to be implemented of course, but the lore it implicates is cool imo. 

I'll develop the idea further (just bear with me, I'm only brainstorming):

Every time you hit 0 health while under the effect of Barring Death's Door you'll get an instance of "Mark of Berath (or whatever it's called)". Effects: -10% healing received, -10% max health, +50% duration of Barring Death's Door. 

At some point (which cannot be reached in game) you'll have 0 "real" health but very long duration of BDD and when you finally go down you'll rise as Death Guard.

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

An important thing to note is that Shieldbearer gets an equivalent ability. This is an auto upgrade of Lay on Hand so is meant to be a strict improvement from base Lay on Hand. I think both abilities shall get a similar fix. 

Yes, of course. Good point.

1 hour ago, Bosmer said:

That would be a clean solution, but aren‘t there any high hp enemies or bosses that use this ability? Would definitely make these encounters more challenging   
another alternative would be to apply a strong debuff while bdd is active: for example -50% action speed or similar.. 

 Good point as well. I like a debuff during BDD. Maybe Action speed etc. could get countered by Blade Cascade so maybe something else. But the general idea is good I think. 

I don't recall any enemies with suoerhigh health who use BDD. But maybe there are. Could be solved with Enfeeblement as a counter though (if not resistant to CON affl.) or by destroy-abilities (Touch of Death, Disintegrate etc.)? But yes: if there's such enemies it would be a problem. Does somebody know enemies like that?

Edited March 20, 2021 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Tell that to Lucia Rivan. It seems that Death Guards don't necessarily have to be on good terms with Berath. Only that their will is strong enough to defy death when it's supposed to come. 

Anyway, I like the concept of drawing Berath's attention when you keep getting knock-knock-knocked on her door. (leaving apart the Deathguard part)
I'm only concerned about the mechanic being too complicated, but let's see where it goes

Quote

+50% Action/Recovery debuff is easy, elegant and good since it discourages time stuff/prolonging shenanigans. But once you couple it with Blade Cascade we're back at 0.

[..] 
 Good point as well. I like a debuff during BDD. Maybe Action speed etc. could get countered by Blade Cascade so maybe something else. But the general idea is good I think. 

It would give a drawback to Shielbearer LoH so I don't like it Also it does nothing to prevent the broken part of BDD which is the potential invincibility.
That's why I don't see it as the bulk of the tweak.

Quote

Every time you hit 0 health while under the effect of Barring Death's Door you'll get an instance of "Mark of Berath (or whatever it's called)". Effects: -10% healing received, -10% max health, +50% duration of Barring Death's Door. 

Once more : this effect does not exist. At 0 health, you're knocked out. BDD keeps you at 1 health.
The actual effect has to be worded such as "when taking damages under 5% health" or something like that if someone finds a better alternative. As a general note : if an effect does not exist somewhere in the existing abilities, it probably does not exist in the hardcode.
And I'm concerned it can be cheesed using a lvl1 henchman with so few health that 1 health is still above 5% (which mean he can tank easily for the party).

That's why I'm not a fan of such solutions. They might be good but one should try to express them in a technically feasible way  (wo actual drawbacks are easier to spot). 

Quote

I don't recall any enemies with suoerhigh health who use BDD. But maybe there are. Could be solved with Enfeeblement as a counter though (if not resistant to CON affl.) or by destroy-abilities (Touch of Death, Disintegrate etc.)? But yes: if there's such enemies it would be a problem. Does somebody know enemies like that?

Some Vampire with cleric in their party I think. Not that many cases though.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Elric Galad

[lewis_cb]

I personally would also prefer a tweak where BDD is no longer exploitable and only apply penalties when your HP goes to 0 but not if it doesn´t. Perhaps in line with @Boeroer suggestion and @Elric Galad Proposal3, a one-time effect that heals to 50% HP and have a 50% chance to get a wound? Wouldn't 100% HP be too much?

Good point about thecnical feasibility. Few questions come to mind:

• How does BDD technically achieve its immortality effect then? are its conditions/code not readable/reusable for modding? 
   
• Also "when taking damages under 5% health" does it mean that if you are at 6% HP and in 1 attack are brought to 0 this wouldn´t save your life?
   
• Or if you are at 4% and are brought to 3%, BDD would trigger under this "when taking damages under 5% health" condition?

Edited March 20, 2021 by lewis_cb

[Elric Galad]

59 minutes ago, lewis_cb said:

I personally would also prefer a tweak where BDD is no longer exploitable and only apply penalties when your HP goes to 0 but not if it doesn´t. Perhaps in line with @Boeroer suggestion and @Elric Galad Proposal3, a one-time effect that heals to 50% HP and have a 50% chance to get a wound? Wouldn't 100% HP be too much?

Good point about thecnical feasibility. Few questions come to mind:

• How does BDD technically achieve its immortality effect then? are its conditions/code not readable/reusable for modding? 

It's an hard-coded effect called "prevent death". It's an all-or-nothing effect (no parameters apart duration) that basically prevents health from going below 1. 

Also auto-rez would get one wounded 100% of time. The wound is not part of the effect but because you have been knocked first.
Also there is no effect in the game that cures 1 wound, only effects that cure all the wounds (such as potion of Luminous Adra). So not possible to generate a wound from knock-down and cures it 50% of time because of barring death door.

Quote

• Also "when taking damages under 5% health" does it mean that if you are at 6% HP and in 1 attack are brought to 0 this wouldn´t save your life?

The idea would be to keep the "prevent death" part so it would prevent knockdown anyway, but implement an additional side-effects that trigger when health is already below 5% and damaged (or whatever percentage... could also be 25% so it is in line with Near Death definition but in that case it coud happen witj a significant health total).

That in the case you describe, you would be saved from death, stay at 1 health and get no side-effect. But the next damages taken will be very likely to trigger side-effects.

Quote

• Or if you are at 4% and are brought to 3%, BDD would trigger under this "when taking damages under 5% health" condition?

Yeah, if at 4% and taking 1% damages, the side effects could trigger even if damages would not have been fatal. As I said, this solution isn't perfect. I think it would not proc with DoT ticks but probably with pulse ticks such as chillfog.


Other note : we should keep in mind that Prevent Death might be the effect that keeps Death Godlike manageable. Without it (or with a complete rework), their special might become a bit too much tedious to use.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

BDD did allow to reach 0 health without knockout on release. But it interfered with stuff (like Vengeful Defeat I think) so it was changed to 1. 

The Fire Stag of Druids does explode at 0 health - but it still doesn't "die" when under effect of Barring Death's Door --> unlimited explosions.

So that "at 0 health" trigger has to be in the game I presume? It could be that the Stag has a more complicated trigger but I don't really think so.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

57 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

BDD did allow to reach 0 health without knockout on release. But it interfered with stuff (like Vengeful Defeat I think) so it was changed to 1. 

The Fire Stag of Druids does explode at 0 health - but it still doesn't "die" when under effect of Barring Death's Door --> unlimited explosions.

So that "at 0 health" trigger has to be in the game I presume? It could be that the Stag has a more complicated trigger but I don't really think so.

No, the Fire Stag has an activable attack with 2 effects : Fire AoE and Destroy self. They are separated effects, that's why the explosion still happens even if BDD prevents the Destroy part. There is no "trigger" for the AoE (unless one uses Balance Polishing Mod of course  then it triggers on Death)

Edited March 20, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Powerotti]

What do you think about this:

BDD purges itself when triggered or is one-use per cast effect. Then creates barier (like Her Courage - which is actually temporary HP) for x+y*PL points for z sec, to protect character from instant death by next dmg. One still needs to react (heal or reposition), before barier will break or expire.

This way one can extend BDD effect, but it's still disposable. Shield effect could be extended too, but it doesn't give immortality due to finite barier points.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Powerotti

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, Powerotti said:

What do you think about this:

BDD purges itself when triggered or is one-use per cast effect. Then creates barier (like Her Courage - which is actually temporary HP) for x+y*PL points for z sec, to protect character from instant death by next dmg. One still needs to react (heal or reposition), before barier will break or expire.

This way one can extend BDD effect, but it's still disposable. Shield effect could be extended too, but it doesn't give immortality due to finite barier points.

The barrier part is a good idea ! Not a single target heal !

The "purge itself when triggered" has the same problem as above : what do you call "one use" since there is no in-game effect to detect that a source of damages would have been fatal ? This is a very technical question but we won't be able to go further until it is solved.

A near death activated shield could work. Maybe with a prevent death effect that works until near death.

[Elric Galad]

For example (technical specifications) :

- Apply a "Prevent Death" effect for n seconds
     - The Prevent Death effect is removed under 5% health (this should still prevent 1 attack from killing the target)
- May apply a triggered shield effect for the same n seconds
     - The trigger of the shield effect is being under 5% health
     - The shield effect x+y*PL points for z sec (as per @Powerotti suggestion)

To be checked : do shields negate DoT damages ? Self damages such as Blood Sacrifice ?

Feel free to discuss all the values above.
There should be a version for BDD and another one for Shieldbearers Lays on Hand.
I think the durations should be a bit higher than with current versions.

I think it is unecessary for Potion of the final Stand cause Potions are limited by themselves.
I think it is unecessary for Tier 7 priest Resurrection cause it implies having taken a wound.

The best thing with this solution is that it synergizes quite well with Death Godlikes.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Elric Galad

[lewis_cb]

 

11 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

That in the case you describe, you would be saved from death, stay at 1 health and get no side-effect. But the next damages taken will be very likely to trigger side-effects.

Yeah, if at 4% and taking 1% damages, the side effects could trigger even if damages would not have been fatal. As I said, this solution isn't perfect. I think it would not proc with DoT ticks but probably with pulse ticks such as chillfog.

That's great news (not dying if you go from 6% to 0 in 1 hit). I am wondering, could 1% be used instead of 5%? If so I think it would emulate the 1 HP condition well enough, as 1% of a typical health pool of say 400 HP would be 4HP.

5 hours ago, Powerotti said:

What do you think about this:

BDD purges itself when triggered or is one-use per cast effect. Then creates barier (like Her Courage - which is actually temporary HP) for x+y*PL points for z sec, to protect character from instant death by next dmg. One still needs to react (heal or reposition), before barier will break or expire.

This way one can extend BDD effect, but it's still disposable. Shield effect could be extended too, but it doesn't give immortality due to finite barier points.

I really like it, good idea  it keeps BDD in its separate niche. Giving BDD healing effects would wrongly make it a healing competitor (plus the shield idea suits perfectly the Death Godlike).

 

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

To be checked : do shields negate DoT damages ? Self damages such as Blood Sacrifice ?

About the 2nd question, I am playing a Troubadour/Bloodmage and "Her Courage" blocks 10 pts of Blood Sacrifice damage

Edited March 21, 2021 by lewis_cb

[Elric Galad]

Good. Now only the question about DoT and shield remains.

Threshold is important not for typical case but for extreme case. What if someone used a party member with extremely low health to avoid the removal of Prevent Death ? 99 health will never be under 1% health. Even 5% might not be strictly enough because I think one can go down to 19 health on purpose.

I would even add +20 temporary health to the effect to avoid possible exploits.

 

[Elric Galad]

Proposal 5 : getting rid of the prevent death part altogether (so no issue about threshold) and just let it be a super high barrier (~200 ?) that activate on near death.

The trigger would have infinite duration but the shield would be limited in time. Would be close from Watchful presence in design but with a twist. No complicated mechanism and still serves its original purpose.

And if people get one shoted... Just don't dump constitution please.

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Proposal 5 : getting rid of the prevent death part altogether (so no issue about threshold) and just let it be a super high barrier (~200 ?) that activate on near death.

The trigger would have infinite duration but the shield would be limited in time. Would be close from Watchful presence in design but with a twist. No complicated mechanism and still serves its original purpose.

And if people get one shoted... Just don't dump constitution please.

Hm... indeed quite similar to Watchful Presence. Only dmg shield instead of healing. 

I have another question: there are some effects like Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage, Relentless Storm, Nature's Terror and such which attach an effect to your character but it won't show up under "beneficial effects" and thus can't be prolonged with SoT/WoD.

Would it be possible to use an ability like Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage but instead of causing terrify in an AoE it would cause the BDD effect in an AoE? If so, would it be possible to turn the AoE into "target:self" only? Or make the AoE so darn small it wouldn't touch bystanders?

If that was possible then all the problems with Wall of Draining, SoT would be gone, right?

Edited March 21, 2021 by Boeroer

[lewis_cb]

@Elric Galad I guess we can't use 1% HP instead of 5% right? imo 25% would be too much, also a Death Godlike would like to sit below 25% but above this BDD %, so that it only triggers when really necessary. 

I would then suggest, when you receive dmg under this 1% or 5% HP, you receive a brief fixed-time immortality (Prevent Death) that cannot be extended by SoT, etc (like the mod discussed for Brilliant in the other thread)?

 

So 2 effects:

- Effect1 that is extendable and just waits for this HP % to be reached to trigger Effect2 and remove itself

- Effect2 that is not extendable (fixed-time) and gives immortality like Prevent Death

Edited March 21, 2021 by lewis_cb

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Hm... indeed quite similar to Watchful Presence. Only dmg shield instead of healing. 

I have another question: there are some effects like Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage, Relentless Storm, Nature's Terror and such which attach an effect to your character but it won't show up under "beneficial effects" and thus can't be prolonged with SoT/WoD.

Would it be possible to use an ability like Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage but instead of causing terrify in an AoE it would cause the BDD effect in an AoE? If so, would it be possible to turn the AoE into "target:self" only? Or make the AoE so darn small it wouldn't touch bystanders?

If that was possible then all the problems with Wall of Draining, SoT would be gone, right?

I don't see any problem with Wall of Draining or SoT since I've already modded these ones. WoD and SoT aren't able to extend any effect infinitely (well, WoD technically can but can be acheived very rarely and tediously). WoD / SoT problems should anyway be addressed by WoD / SoT tweaks.

I'm just concerned about BDD recast that would make one immortal (even if this combo is never as guaranteed as the ld Brilliant + BDD + SoT combo).

By the way, from a technical point of view, what you say can indeed be done using similar mechanic as Magran's Might at least (pulsating effect with AoE so small that it only affects main target).

But it is basically creating an exception to general rules which I hat about as much as you hate cooldowns.

1 hour ago, lewis_cb said:

@Elric Galad I guess we can't use 1% HP instead of 5% right? imo 25% would be too much, also a Death Godlike would like to sit below 25% but above this BDD %, so that it only triggers when really necessary. 

I would then suggest, when you receive dmg under this 1% or 5% HP, you receive a brief fixed-time immortality (Prevent Death) that cannot be extended by SoT, etc (like the mod discussed for Brilliant in the other thread)?

 

So 2 effects:

- Effect1 that is extendable and just waits for this HP % to be reached to trigger Effect2 and remove itself

- Effect2 that is not extendable (fixed-time) and gives immortality like Prevent Death

I'm not even sur we can use this 5% in a satisfying way. It's a convoluted mechanism, in both versions (I know I'm the one who suggested them  )

That's why the Near Death shield currently has my favor. Short time immortality would be worse in most cases. And Death Godlike special will also be preserved by a non-healing effect.

I don't like the Brilliant cap from the other thread by the way, that's why I retweaked it as you can read there (since I don't care about SoT / WoD).

[Elric Galad]

To be more clear, I won't be very at ease with the 5% health trigger without a theoritical proof of minimum possible HP. I think a SC Cipher/Wiz with lowest Con and Wounds can be lower than 20 health so Prevent Death effect removal may never trigger...

[thelee]

i'm just here to suggest that BDD is not OP in a world where effects like salvation of time and wall of draining are limited in their potential.

in a normal world it's just a helpful emergency spell that temporarily gives you huge protection. But the duration is inherently very short and if you haven't "solved your problem" by the end you're still gonna get knocked out.

 

I think any fix for BDD actually has to be a fix for salvation of time or wall of draining. (such exists in a balance patch or community mod, no?)

 

edit: you can see this clearly with some risen/skeleton caster groups. undead priests love to cast BDD on near dead friends but all it really does is just delay the inevitable for the enemy by a handful of seconds, unless there happens to be a risen champion nearby who also does lay on hands (which targets similar to priests with BDD), at which point the BDD power is increased quite a bit but still not extremely powerful. meanwhile, god help you if a priest puts BDD on a risen wizard who then uses of wall of draining on your party - you best get the heck out of that wall and/or hope you have some good cleansing/supression effects.

Edited March 22, 2021 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, thelee said:

i'm just here to suggest that BDD is not OP in a world where effects like salvation of time and wall of draining are limited in their potential.

in a normal world it's just a helpful emergency spell that temporarily gives you huge protection. But the duration is inherently very short and if you haven't "solved your problem" by the end you're still gonna get knocked out.

 

I think any fix for BDD actually has to be a fix for salvation of time or wall of draining. (such exists in a balance patch or community mod, no?)

 

edit: you can see this clearly with some risen/skeleton caster groups. undead priests love to cast BDD on near dead friends but all it really does is just delay the inevitable for the enemy by a handful of seconds, unless there happens to be a risen champion nearby who also does lay on hands (which targets similar to priests with BDD), at which point the BDD power is increased quite a bit but still not extremely powerful. meanwhile, god help you if a priest puts BDD on a risen wizard who then uses of wall of draining on your party - you best get the heck out of that wall and/or hope you have some good cleansing/supression effects.

I think that a single cast of BDD is indeed never broken on its own. The issue happens when you can extend its duration (but as you pointed it is not a problem with the modded game) or when it is cast repeatedly (which is possible through Brilliant mostly, but cutting it completely from the game is not planned). Tactician / Priest is a good candidate for this but any frontliner supported by a backrow cipher could work. 

[thelee]

50 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

(which is possible through Brilliant mostly, but cutting it completely from the game is not planned)

I would maintain this is also not that powerful without effects like salvation of time or wall of draining.

Brilliant ordinarily is too slow, very limited.*

 

* major exception is cipher who can get decent duration on their brilliant and with a psion can get >100% (e.g. multiple party members) uptime on it. 

[NotDumbEnough]

4 hours ago, thelee said:

i'm just here to suggest that BDD is not OP in a world where effects like salvation of time and wall of draining are limited in their potential.

in a normal world it's just a helpful emergency spell that temporarily gives you huge protection. But the duration is inherently very short and if you haven't "solved your problem" by the end you're still gonna get knocked out.

 

I think any fix for BDD actually has to be a fix for salvation of time or wall of draining. (such exists in a balance patch or community mod, no?)

 

edit: you can see this clearly with some risen/skeleton caster groups. undead priests love to cast BDD on near dead friends but all it really does is just delay the inevitable for the enemy by a handful of seconds, unless there happens to be a risen champion nearby who also does lay on hands (which targets similar to priests with BDD), at which point the BDD power is increased quite a bit but still not extremely powerful. meanwhile, god help you if a priest puts BDD on a risen wizard who then uses of wall of draining on your party - you best get the heck out of that wall and/or hope you have some good cleansing/supression effects.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I've seen a fair number of AI enemies just happily attacking a character with BDD on them, i.e. they're too dumb to switch targets. So not only does BDD function as protection, it's also pseudo crowd control, since quite a few enemies like to prioritize near death targets.