Suggestions for CRPGs like PoE

[xzar_monty]

58 minutes ago, thelee said:

Fortunately, the success of Disco Elysium tells me that Josh Sawyer's big concern has not materialized: that OBS had contributed to escalating the indie RPG cost by making it minimum stakes to have full VO for RPGs. I don't think many people complained that Disco Elysium was missing full VO.

Agreed. Good point. Its success also indicates that there's still a market for a story-heavy game with a lot of subtlety in dialogue and choices. This makes me happy. There market may not be D:OS2-sized, but it's there, and it's not small, either.

[Desmodeus]

15 hours ago, thelee said:

OBS had contributed to escalating the indie RPG cost by making it minimum stakes to have full VO for RPGs

I think soon this problem will be fixed by development of voice engines. Already even foss one show great progress in both quality of line reading and range of possible voices. I think in 10 years max many indie devs would be able to make full VO for there game just by running text though such engines and recording it. Hell I even seen it done nowdays with engines themselves in mods for morrowind. 

[wih]

16 hours ago, thelee said:

Fortunately, the success of Disco Elysium tells me that Josh Sawyer's big concern has not materialized: that OBS had contributed to escalating the indie RPG cost by making it minimum stakes to have full VO for RPGs. I don't think many people complained that Disco Elysium was missing full VO.

The problem is the streamers. Just recently CohhCarnage made another Deadfire playthrough. I doubt he would do it if he had to read aloud all the text himself.

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, Desmodeus said:

I think soon this problem will be fixed by development of voice engines. Already even foss one show great progress in both quality of line reading and range of possible voices. I think in 10 years max many indie devs would be able to make full VO for there game just by running text though such engines and recording it. Hell I even seen it done nowdays with engines themselves in mods for morrowind. 

Can you give a link where I could listen to a voice engine in a Morrowind mod? It would be interesting.

I am somewhat sceptical, but I will be very happy to be proven wrong.

[Desmodeus]

8 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Can you give a link where I could listen to a voice engine in a Morrowind mod? It would be interesting.

It is rather old mod(I played around it in 2012 or so). Mod is called TalkyMorrowind and it require installation of separate voice engines as it does not have any of them inbuilt

Here is example from youtube

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Desmodeus

[Boeroer]

Excuse my french, but streamers my ass.

 

I feared that video might sound like it does. A bit like Commander Data reading the lines. Ok, it's from 2012 - but I also checked some text-to-speech for some learning software today (coincidentally) and at least that one still wasn't anywhere near a proper trained voice actor. But 10 years is a long time for those things - so maybe...

Edited January 12, 2021 by Boeroer

[wih]

1 minute ago, Boeroer said:

Excuse my french, but streamers my ass.

I don't care about watching streams either, but isn't it a useful publicity for the game?

[xzar_monty]

2 hours ago, Desmodeus said:

It is rather old mod(I played around it in 2012 or so). Mod is called TalkyMorrowind and it require installation of separate voice engines as it does not have any of them inbuilt

Thanks! The voice quality was better than I expected. Will be interesting to see if this is something that actual game developers will eventually use.

[Boeroer]

6 minutes ago, wih said:

I don't care about watching streams either, but isn't it a useful publicity for the game?

Yes, it is. But if streamers can't be bothered to read out text rather than looking into the camera while it gets read for them then screw them I'd say. 

There's a very popular German Let's Player named "Gronkh". I don't follow him but in the few vids I saw he was reading all dialogues with different voices and intonation. It was engaging enough (and sometimes also funny) and he doesn't seem to have any reservations or problems with non-full VO. To the contrary I'd say. 

Of course you should be a streamer who can read fluently. Some might struggle with that. But then I'd argue they shouldn't play dialogue-heavy CRPGs in the first place. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Boeroer

[Desmodeus]

12 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I feared that video might sound like it does. A bit like Commander Data reading the lines. Ok, it's from 2012 - but I also checked some text-to-speech for some learning software today (coincidentally) and at least that one still wasn't anywhere near a proper trained voice actor.

Yeah, but if full VO will become market requirement for RPG - Commander Delta VO would be taken better then no VO in term of sales. And it would still be cheaper then having proper payed actors AND can be reused in multiple projects without seperate payments(unless we count prices of SaaS)

[Boeroer]

True - but I would argue that it's better to have no VO instead of bad VO.

Unless you want to support players with disabilities of course - for them text-to speech would be great to have whatever the quality is unless you can understand it well. 

But as I said: 10 years is a lot of time for tech, especially when it involves KI. With a smart enough KI and good training I can see that text-to speech might indeed be a great solution to this problem. Those Google Assistant phone calls were impressive. And at the same time maybe it will also replace lots of narrative designers, composers, artists and testers - depending on how well it can generate game content that players like. That will be weird...

Maybe we will soon have a "made by real humans" label.

Edited January 12, 2021 by Boeroer

[Desmodeus]

Testers possible but I doubt narrative designers will be replaced until the time we will be able to create proper self-identifying AI. As narrative is very thin barely computable thing. Computer would need to have proper understanding of what narrative is or else we will have very dry by the number stories. Though looking on modern isekai anime... Maybe they are already doing it xD

P.S Anyone know what happened to that foss project of "generate every music possible that was not created  and put it under open source licence"? xD

[Boeroer]

Well, we'll speak again in 10 years I guess.

[Mazisky]

I highly reccomend Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous

I've put 40 hours into it (beta version) and in my opinion is the best Crpg ever made since Baldur's gate 2.

My favourite games of this genre are Baldur's Gate and Pillars of Eternity 1.

I did not like much Deadfire (mostly for the setting cause i hate pirates and seas), I did not like much Kingmaker (too buggy and repetitive) and I didn't like at all Divinity original Sin (too silly). This is for reference to my tastes.

Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous has the best atmosphere I've ever felt in a Crpg. It is the pinnacle of classic\dark medieval setting, there are beautiful castles and woods to explore, cathedrals, a demon invasion and you get early game a fortress as base of operations, similar to Caed Nua but more in-depth.

There is an incredible amount of classes and combinations, thousands of spells and abilites.

There is RTWP and Turn-based you can switch in-game any time you want.

Graphics is beautiful, as detailed as Pillars 2: Deadfire but full 3D, this is an achivement because 3D usually has less details than 2D-prerendered but in this game a single castle room is incredibly detailed with a lot of high quality objects on screen.

The soundtrack has become my favourite of all times. I can't believe in 2021 a Crpg composer managed to make an ost that can stand against old glories such as Skyrim or Baldur's Gate ost.

The only flaw I could find in this game is the writing, there are lot of dialogues and characters but the writing is really simple and cartoony.

At the end, every fan of this genre should  keep eyes on it, full release is expected for June.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Mazisky

[Boeroer]

57 minutes ago, Mazisky said:

[...] the writing is really simple and cartoony.

And that's one big turn off for me. 

[xzar_monty]

15 hours ago, Mazisky said:

I highly reccomend Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous

The only flaw I could find in this game is the writing, there are lot of dialogues and characters but the writing is really simple and cartoony.

That's a terrible flaw. I played Pathfinder: Kingmaker, but much of the writing was just awful. I have in fact wondered on these forums whether the writing was meant as a parody, because it was so bad.

It's a huge disappointment if the writing in Wrath of the Righteous is of the same quality.

[omgFIREBALLS]

I agree about the writing to some degree, but my real issue with PF: KM derives from what feels like a religious adherence to the tabletop game rules. It's either that or they just made the system confusing (and unenjoyable) for some other reason. Let's compare:

Tabletop
Con: Humans don't want to go through advanced calculations for every action, so it's all just a few die rolls.
Pro: There's a DM to tweak combat to make it enjoyable for the players.

Computer
Con: The computer is the DM and it's a slave to its rules.
Pro: Advanced calculations are easily doable.

Yet the result of this is that we just put the PF ruleset in a video game and call it a day. A d20 is a terrible form of difficulty. I hope the next time - and every time thereafter - a studio wants to create a video game adaptation of a fantasy story, they leave whatever tabletop rules are associated with it out of it. It's the 21st century, use the computing power available to create fun mechanics instead of automating stone age technology. Thank you.

[Mazisky]

2 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

That's a terrible flaw. I played Pathfinder: Kingmaker, but much of the writing was just awful. I have in fact wondered on these forums whether the writing was meant as a parody, because it was so bad.

It's a huge disappointment if the writing in Wrath of the Righteous is of the same quality.

I agree to some extent, but most of the modern Crpgs are on the same boat.

Both Deadfire and Divinity Original Sin 2 have awful and certainly not better writing than Kingmaker or WOTR, but a lot of people still loved and ejoyed those games, so the same applies here.

WOTC has no good writing but at least it is fun and engaging, Deadfire has no good writing either but it's also boring. (still talking about the writing\story here, not the game as a whole)

Edited April 19, 2021 by Mazisky

[xzar_monty]

3 minutes ago, Mazisky said:

I agree to some extent, but most of the modern Crpgs are on the same boat.

Both Deadfire and Divinity Original Sin 2 have awful and certainly not better writing than Kingmaker or WOTR, but a lot of people still loved and ejoyed those games, so the same applies here.

I cannot comment on D:OS2, because I lost my interest in about an hour, but your comparison between Deadfire and Kingmaker makes no sense. If you cannot see the huge difference in the quality of writing, then I cannot help you. It's clear as day. If Pathfinder: Kingmaker is someone who has been playing the piano for a few months and keeps making terrible mistakes, Deadfire is an accomplished concert pianist. Not a virtuoso, but somebody who knows what he's doing, understands the style, has technique under control and is pleasant to listen to.

Here's the paradox: taste is a subjective matter. Despite this, there are still objective degrees of proficiency. These can even be analyzed: how much depth there is in characterization, how nuanced the narration is, how variable and/or repetitive the language is, and so on. This here my friend you see is no good sentence in the writing of English language. This, on the other hand, has nothing wrong with it, and although you may dislike its length and perhaps consider some of the words too perspicacious for their own good, the sentence is written by someone who knows what he's doing.

So I'm sorry to say but you're just wrong. The writing in Deadfire is worlds away from Pathfinder: Kingmaker. It is so much better than there is just no comparison. If you prefer P:K as a game, that's just fine, but that's not the question here. The question is the writing.

[xzar_monty]

2 hours ago, omgFIREBALLS said:

I agree about the writing to some degree, but my real issue with PF: KM derives from what feels like a religious adherence to the tabletop game rules. It's either that or they just made the system confusing (and unenjoyable) for some other reason.

I would think they are contractually obliged to essentially copy the tabletop rules. Your point is valid, and I agree with it in the general sense, but I think there's a logical and legal explanation for what you describe.

[Mazisky]

18 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

I cannot comment on D:OS2, because I lost my interest in about an hour, but your comparison between Deadfire and Kingmaker makes no sense. If you cannot see the huge difference in the quality of writing, then I cannot help you. It's clear as day. If Pathfinder: Kingmaker is someone who has been playing the piano for a few months and keeps making terrible mistakes, Deadfire is an accomplished concert pianist. Not a virtuoso, but somebody who knows what he's doing, understands the style, has technique under control and is pleasant to listen to.

Here's the paradox: taste is a subjective matter. Despite this, there are still objective degrees of proficiency. These can even be analyzed: how much depth there is in characterization, how nuanced the narration is, how variable and/or repetitive the language is, and so on. This here my friend you see is no good sentence in the writing of English language. This, on the other hand, has nothing wrong with it, and although you may dislike its length and perhaps consider some of the words too perspicacious for their own good, the sentence is written by someone who knows what he's doing.

So I'm sorry to say but you're just wrong. The writing in Deadfire is worlds away from Pathfinder: Kingmaker. It is so much better than there is just no comparison. If you prefer P:K as a game, that's just fine, but that's not the question here. The question is the writing.

I never had problem with dialogues "lenght" or verbosity in Deadfire.

I've found the writing in Pillars 1 one of the best i've ever experienced, to give you reference about my tastes, and that was certainly verbose and long.

I've found the difference between Poe1 and 2 too noticeable, Poe1 was competent and immersive, engaging till the end, Deadfire writing felt like it was written by an amateur young guy, some characters speak like american teenagers (which i bet the writers also were american teenagers) and totally out of place, feels like playing with American Pie movie guys and not adult people like in POE1,  if you can't see the difference I think you may be too biased only because you like the game.

So no, I can understand you love Deadfire and that's fine, but this does not automatically make its writing universally good.

Also, as added bonus info, I do not like Kingmaker as a game (got bored after 5 hours) so I cannot be biased in its favor

Edited April 19, 2021 by Mazisky

[xzar_monty]

38 minutes ago, Mazisky said:

I've found the difference between Poe1 and 2 too noticeable, Poe1 was competent and immersive, engaging till the end, Deadfire writing felt like it was written by an amateur young guy, some characters speak like american teenagers (which i bet the writers also were american teenagers) and totally out of place, feels like playing with American Pie movie guys and not adult people like in POE1,  if you can't see the difference I think you may be too biased only because you like the game.

So no, I can understand you love Deadfire and that's fine, but this does not automatically make its writing universally good.

Please don't make assumptions from what I write. I am not biased for Deadfire, and I don't love it.

Again, if you claim that Deadfire was written by some "amateur young guy", you should be able to explain that view a little, because it is very hard to understand. You are also being unnecessarily condescending when you bet that parts of Deadfire were written by American teenagers -- I am almost certain they were not, and if they were, those teenagers were quite competent. I only agree with the problem of "too American-sounding" in the sense that one of the wizards in the The Forgotten Sanctum DLC is acted in an overtly American style which I did not particularly care for.

But again, the differences between Deadfire and P:K are just huge. There are grammatical errors and even spelling problems in P:K. The dialogue trees are extremely simplistic and they rarely allow you to make proper choices. Every single character is so shallow that they are essentially a parody: Amiri is a butch stereotype, Linzi is a naivety stereotype, Tartuccio is an evil villain stereotype. There is no development in any of the characters, and no mystery, either.

I am almost certainly going to give Wrath of the Righteous a try, but if the writing really is as bad as in P:K, that's a huge problem and a great disappointment. P:K could have been a great game, but there are two things that kept it from being one: the quality of the writing and some of the encounter design (because the game so clearly cheats against you, which is a huge no-no).

[Mazisky]

40 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Please don't make assumptions from what I write. I am not biased for Deadfire, and I don't love it.

Again, if you claim that Deadfire was written by some "amateur young guy", you should be able to explain that view a little, because it is very hard to understand. You are also being unnecessarily condescending when you bet that parts of Deadfire were written by American teenagers -- I am almost certain they were not, and if they were, those teenagers were quite competent. I only agree with the problem of "too American-sounding" in the sense that one of the wizards in the The Forgotten Sanctum DLC is acted in an overtly American style which I did not particularly care for.

But again, the differences between Deadfire and P:K are just huge. There are grammatical errors and even spelling problems in P:K. The dialogue trees are extremely simplistic and they rarely allow you to make proper choices. Every single character is so shallow that they are essentially a parody: Amiri is a butch stereotype, Linzi is a naivety stereotype, Tartuccio is an evil villain stereotype. There is no development in any of the characters, and no mystery, either.

I am almost certainly going to give Wrath of the Righteous a try, but if the writing really is as bad as in P:K, that's a huge problem and a great disappointment. P:K could have been a great game, but there are two things that kept it from being one: the quality of the writing and some of the encounter design (because the game so clearly cheats against you, which is a huge no-no).

I've found PoE2 companions and main plot uninteresting and undeveloped, factions are boring and uninspired,. Also, forced unnatural romances and too many funny and unnecessary cringy jokes typical of teenagers(same as Dos2).

If that's quality writing for you, then you will love WOTC.

I consider the writing in WOTR and Deadfire bad at the same level,  so if you enjoyed Deadfire writing you will probably love WOTC too.

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Mazisky

[Boeroer]

2 hours ago, Mazisky said:

[...] Deadfire [...] have awful and certainly not better writing than Kingmaker

If you are talking about the English versions and really believe that then I can't take your criticism seriously when it comes to the quality of writing. Might turn out that WOTC has novel prize worthy writing now...

I tried Kingmaker and the quality of writing and the non-funny goofyness were so bad that my toenails figuratively curled upwards. D:OS games are not that much better, but sti better. I cut the devs some slack because English is not their mother tongue and I assume the Russian version is much better. I mean the German version of Deadfire is pretty bad, too - so maybe comparing the English version of Kingmaker with the English version of Deadfire is a bit unfair - but still: I have to play them in English since my Russian is not good enough anymore - so I can only compare that. Same problem with Larian (also not native speakers and my French... you have to excuse it ;)).

Yet PoE and Deadfire are like... leagues better in that regard. That doesn't mean that one has to like that kind of writing or that it makes it more popular or easy to consume - but in terms of quality its objectively better and there mustn't be a single genuine discussion.  

Of course that doesn't make PoE or Deadfire "better" games. D:OS 2 sold a ton more than Deadfire - and Kingmaker was also more successful. Which leads to the assumption that they did more things right for the average audience than the Obsidian games did.  

Unfortunately non-goofy writing and non-cartoony graphics are important to me. I don't like 3D in party RPGs. It always looks too cartoony and also generic to me. Maybe WOTC is better - I didn't look at it until now. I love the more gritty, artistic approach Obsidian did - even if it comes with huge downsides (loading times, performance issues...).

Edited April 19, 2021 by Boeroer

[xzar_monty]

@Mazisky: Based on what you write, I cannot trust your opinion, but it'll be interesting to see what WOTR looks like. In fact, I just went on Youtube to check out the beta, and the very first scene I came across used one of the cliches of all time. Somebody says to a wounded person: "And you -- hold fast, don't die, we'll see you right!"

I mean, this is cliche at its worst. There is no such stuff in Deadfire. It is ambitious writing which takes pains to avoid cliche. It isn't always great writing, but much of the time it works well.

As far as quality of writing is concerned, I'd say Disco Elysium is the best cRPG out there. BG2, PoE and Deadfire are all quite good, and they're in the same category. Neverwinter Nights is a bit worse, and so is Icewind Dale (much more simplistic, less nuanced). P:K is even worse, and by a considerable margin. It doesn't seem that WOTR is going to be great, but let's hope it's not bad.

By the way, @Mazisky, did you play Deadfire in Italian? If so, then I can believe you. The problem is in the horrible translation.

Edited April 19, 2021 by xzar_monty