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I tried Tyranny but can't get into it - I hate playing evil. So what games are you all playing when you want something different to PoE? Don't mention BG3, I played the first 2 when they first came out and won't be playing BG3 as without RTwP it won't feel like the same series. I also dislike DOS which is another reason not to play BG3. I have seen demos of BG3 and don't like what I see.

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You don't have to play evil in Tyranny - so I don't understand why so many players state that as their main reason for not liking it. I do not like it a lot for several reasons, but the setting is not one of them.

What about Pathfinder: Kingmaker? It has RTwP.

 

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6 hours ago, Boeroer said:

You don't have to play evil in Tyranny - so I don't understand why so many players state that as their main reason for not liking it.

Even the Conquest presents the player with value choices that allow them to express a fair amount of agency. Act 1 is all about choosing your path.

If the player is "playing evil" then I'm not sure the game is the problem.

The biggest problem with Tyranny is that we didn't get parts 2 or 3.

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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36 minutes ago, Achilles said:

If the player is "playing evil" then I'm not sure the game is the problem.

To a great extent, I agree with both you and what @Boeroer says above. However, I think the OP also has a point. The intro and beginning of the game rather strongly suggest that the player character has been involved in actions and with institutions that aren't exactly salutary, to put it mildly. This is obvious, isn't it? So there can be a bit of a conundrum right at the start. I did find a starting point like that a bit difficult. But I got on with it, and I agree that you don't have to play evil. I also agree with Boeroer in the sense that the game has a lot of other faults, as I didn't get even close to finishing it.

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Another party based CRPG with RTwP is Tower of Time.

I can't say anything about it since I didn't play it but I hear good things and the Steam reviews are pretty good as well. 

Edited by Boeroer

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Interesting! I took a quick look at it, and it seems to emphasize dungeon crawling and combat a lot. A bit like Icewind Dale, perhaps, in that sense. There doesn't appear to be much storytelling, so I probably won't give it a try, but at least it's nice to see that there are games like this around.

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PC Games (Germany) said "engaging story" - so maybe it isn't that shallow in that regard?

They also wrote that it's pretty hard though. :)

Edited by Boeroer
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5 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Interesting! I took a quick look at it, and it seems to emphasize dungeon crawling and combat a lot. A bit like Icewind Dale, perhaps, in that sense. There doesn't appear to be much storytelling, so I probably won't give it a try, but at least it's nice to see that there are games like this around.

I have the game in my library but have not yet got around to playing it. Apparently it also has decent character development and even some additional RPG elements like crafting. The studio that made is now making a second game called Dark Envoy. Not a sequel; a completely separate game.

Edited by kanisatha
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tyranny are great

with a unique art style more game really should try to use

but lack of support from both paradox and obsidian are the major problem

kingmaker waste too much resource on ancient tabletop rule and still roll d20 in dialogue skill check

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2 hours ago, uuuhhii said:

kingmaker waste too much resource on ancient tabletop rule and still roll d20 in dialogue skill check

But this is just your opinion. Pathfinder: Kingmaker has sold twice as much as Tyranny, so people clearly like its approach, even if you don't.

I would certainly suggest P:K to the OP, as I think he might enjoy it a lot (even if the game does have serious problems, especially in the writing department).

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50 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

But this is just your opinion. Pathfinder: Kingmaker has sold twice as much as Tyranny, so people clearly like its approach, even if you don't.

I would certainly suggest P:K to the OP, as I think he might enjoy it a lot (even if the game does have serious problems, especially in the writing department).

it is a obvious problem when combine with the limited resource of owlcat

owlcat choose to put too much obviously bug inducing content into the game because it is likely popular among the most fervent tabletop fan base instead of the most practical things

in the end it leave a lot of description that reference things doesn't exist in the game and might be copy pasted directly from the books

the number of hot fix is the reality cannot be argued over preference or taste

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I don't think there is such a thing as "bug-inducing content". I agree that Owlcat's effort was misguided to some degree, but I can easily forgive that because it was a result of ambition. I trust they will do better with the next game.

For me, P:K is clearly better than Tyranny, hotfixes or not. The entire system in Tyranny is off-putting, as is the thematic starting point, although I do agree that there is more quality in the writing.

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On 1/1/2021 at 12:35 PM, Boeroer said:

Another party based CRPG with RTwP is Tower of Time.

I can't say anything about it sinc I didn't play it but I her good things and the Steam reviews are pretty good as well. 

I gave it a try after reading your post. It has its good and bad sides, and while overall a nice game I wouldn't compare it to Pillars - in terms of design, not quality. It's a dungeon crawler, not much of a RPG. It's been hours since I tried to care about the plot because the devs couldn't afford voicing almost anything, so I skip through dialogue. It seems proofreading was another thing that had to be cut, because the language errors are too many. Speaking of dialogue and errors, when I was still paying attention to it, the characters sometimes talked a little too much like the animated stat sheets they are. The combat discussions weren't entirely immersive. Also, if a game has one elf, that elf apparently has to be a hippie.

The art is good and I feel a lot of love and thought went into the combat system, so those can be reasons to play. But for story - there might be a good story in there, but it's not well delivered.

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Thanks for that comment. Those language errors are astonishing, if what you're saying is true. I don't doubt you, because P:K also has a lot of language errors. I suppose they are explained (but certainly not justified) by the fact that the game's produced by a Russian company. I don't know whether anything similar applies to Tower of Time.

Even Deadfire had a couple of language errors, but I wouldn't describe that as a problem, even if it is annoying. Most books have them, too, even good ones. Ha, I was just working on a book by a famous writer who suggested that basically everyone's life is exceptionally difficult. That made me chuckle. Evidently he didn't see the impossibility there. Everyone's life can be very difficult, that's true, but there is no way everyone's life can be exceptionally difficult; anyone who claims that simply doesn't understand what "exception" means.

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Tower of Time is worse than Kingmaker and Deadfire for language errors. It's not abysmal, but still.

I think that author was just referring to how we don't realize that everyone is struggling with something. We only see our own inner turmoil, so we only think our own lives are "exceptionally difficult". It may be a language error, but I say it's for illustrative purposes. Related.

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  • ArnoldRimmer changed the title to Suggestions for CRPGs like PoE
On 1/2/2021 at 5:52 AM, xzar_monty said:

I don't think there is such a thing as "bug-inducing content". I agree that Owlcat's effort was misguided to some degree, but I can easily forgive that because it was a result of ambition. I trust they will do better with the next game.

For me, P:K is clearly better than Tyranny, hotfixes or not. The entire system in Tyranny is off-putting, as is the thematic starting point, although I do agree that there is more quality in the writing.

i personally liked tyranny's thematic starting point and wish it had absolutely no "good" option, because it seems like a bit of a cop-out rather than forcing players to engage with being an instrument of evil. i wish it would have embellished it more and shown more of the banal aspects to it. but the system is pretty blah. for all its faults, sometimes i find myself wanting to go give P:K another attempt. I dont' do that with tyranny. even with greater narrative replayability, if this is the best a classless rtwp has to offer, count me out. it's just very samey, even with wildly different party members.

 

i'm kind of in the same boat as OP. Periodically I go looking around for another great crpg to get into, but it's really kind of a wall. I got Tower of Time off a steam sale, but haven't been motivated enough to start it. Many of the AAA "rpgs" seem rather samey; got Horizon Zero Dawn on PC in the same sale and while it sure has some nice visuals and world-building, the mechanics are the same-ol no-contraints "stealth, combat, craft/foraging/misc" identikit skill trees as every other AAA action rpg. Disco Elysium was a nice bright spot, but for more of an action-bent there doesn't seem to be much out there.

 

I really hope Avowed does something different (I could kill for a class-based action rpg).

Edited by thelee
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11 hours ago, thelee said:

i'm kind of in the same boat as OP. Periodically I go looking around for another great crpg to get into, but it's really kind of a wall. [...] Disco Elysium was a nice bright spot, but for more of an action-bent there doesn't seem to be much out there.

I understand this very well, and this mirrors my experience, too. Every once in a while, I go looking around, but there's nothing there. It's very sad.

There's BG2, then there's PoE and Deadfire, then there's P:K (with all of its faults), then there's Disco Elysium (which was good but which I won't play again), and that's it. Boy I wish there was more.

IWD lacks character interaction and narrative finesse, the 3D approach of NWN gets extremely repetitive and destroys most of the party interaction, ToEE had too many faults, turn-based games like D:OS just put me off, and so on. So yes, I'm picky, too.

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I guess most players don't know this, but making a good CRPG that feels like a quality game is extremely difficult. 

You can be a small indy studio and make very good roguelikes, tactic games, deck builders, platformers and so on - because with those games you need a good game mechanic and taht's basically it. Nice graphics, music, writing etc. will help, but they are not definig the game most of times. Look at Slay the Spire: its graphics are simple and not really breathtaking, the music is good but not jawdropping, there's nearly no writing. But it's a great, really great deckbuilder roguelike game. More than 1 million sold copies... Same with FTL (music top notch though in its own niche, pixel graphics good as well but nothing AAA-like), Among Us, Hotline Miami and whatnot. 
You need one or two really good aspects and that might be enough to land a hit.

With CRPGs you need the whole package: good story/writing or else it feels like reading a cheap novella with Fabio on the cover. The branching dialogues are very complicated, you have to do quests with several outcomes, the world is supposed to "react" to what you do, companions should feel "alive", you need decent graphics that can be simple but don't look cheap, your game mechanics better be great, your char have to be customizable, you want lots of loot, interesting abilities, the balance shouldn't be off,  the music can't be too awful. And then people also want VO because it helps their immersion.

Imo CRPGs are the games which need the most comprehensive set of talent and experience to be done right. At the same time they are a niche product most of times so you won't sell millions of those. So who does these games must really be dedicated and passionate about it.

If I were to make a game I certainly wouldn't start with an RPG, jesus no. The underlying systems alone... So I understand why there's not a ton of good new CRPGs out there.

Edited by Boeroer
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I fully agree with what you say. I appreciate the difficulty of making games like this. But it's still sad that there aren't more of them. I'm not complaining, and I certainly don't feel entitled to games like this, as they're extremely difficult to make well, but heck, I am sad that there aren't more of them around.

Given the right circumstances, I would be very keen to provide writing content for a title of this sort, as I think I'm pretty good at it, but I could certainly not help in any of the programming areas. Pathfinder: Kingmaker was a game where I often thought, "Dang, it wouldn't even be hard to write stuff that's an awful lot better than this".

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5 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

I understand this very well, and this mirrors my experience, too. Every once in a while, I go looking around, but there's nothing there. It's very sad.

There's BG2, then there's PoE and Deadfire, then there's P:K (with all of its faults), then there's Disco Elysium (which was good but which I won't play again), and that's it. Boy I wish there was more.

IWD lacks character interaction and narrative finesse, the 3D approach of NWN gets extremely repetitive and destroys most of the party interaction, ToEE had too many faults, turn-based games like D:OS just put me off, and so on. So yes, I'm picky, too.

Just hang in there. I'm in this same boat myself. But there are some indie games along the lines you are speaking of coming along, and hopefully at least some of them will be good: Wrath of the Righteous; Black Geyser; Alaloth; Dark Envoy. Further along, in addition to Avowed, there are Starfield and DA4. Oh, and just FYI, some well-reputed modders are creating an EE for IwD2 that looks quite good.

For myself, the dearth of good cRPGs is why I've recently branched off into city/base-builder games. :)

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I am looking forward to Black Geyser, which should be coming out fairly soon. It looks modest but I'm going to buy it anyway to support the developer (unless the initial reception it absolutely awful).

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4 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

I fully agree with what you say. I appreciate the difficulty of making games like this. But it's still sad that there aren't more of them. I'm not complaining, and I certainly don't feel entitled to games like this, as they're extremely difficult to make well, but heck, I am sad that there aren't more of them around.

FWIW, dragon age inquisition very nearly checks off all the crpg boxes for me; it's literally class-based party-based rtwp. so clearly there is some sort of mainstream market for it. (the system is a little simplified compared to games like P:K or deadfire, but maybe that's why it has mainstream appeal, and combos add some tactical depth that P:K and deadfire don't have) whenever the next dragon age comes around, i'll be looking for it and for anyone who's looking and hasn't tried it DA:I can be up your alley.

 

43 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

For myself, the dearth of good cRPGs is why I've recently branched off into city/base-builder games. :)

cities: skylines!

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6 minutes ago, thelee said:

FWIW, dragon age inquisition very nearly checks off all the crpg boxes for me; it's literally party-based rtwp.

It appears to have the NWN-flavored 3D approach, though. I find that quite off-putting: no matter how interesting the tilesets look initially, they get old very quickly. The graphical side is one of the absolute draws of Deadfire for me; the individually created city (and other) visuals are so damn good. Like, the rooftop terrace at the palace in Deadfire is just gorgeous.

I don't mind the complete lack of graphics. I love playing NetHack in ASCII. But the 3D gets old very quickly, in my view.

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