Politics... US election edition (2020 almost over, read all about it!)

[Gromnir]

"Opinion by Ashton Carter, **** Cheney, William Cohen, Mark Esper, Robert Gates, Chuck Hagel, James Mattis, Leon Panetta, William Perry and Donald Rumsfeld"

All 10 living former defense secretaries: Involving the military in election disputes would cross into dangerous territory

another situation wherein the shocking aspect o' the story is not what fits within the four corners o' the piece.

"As senior Defense Department leaders have noted, “there’s no role for the U.S. military in determining the outcome of a U.S. election.” Efforts to involve the U.S. armed forces in resolving election disputes would take us into dangerous, unlawful and unconstitutional territory. Civilian and military officials who direct or carry out such measures would be accountable, including potentially facing criminal penalties, for the grave consequences of their actions on our republic."

every former defense secretary not in the dirt were concerned enough to state what should be axiomatic regarding a possibility which four years past woulda' been unthinkable. carter, cheney, cohen, esper, gates, hagel, mattis, panetta, perry and rumsfield is reminding military officials o' the oath they took to defend the Constitution. 

dismiss as impossible trump invoking the insurrection act in a last ditch effort to maintain his grip on the resolute desk ignores the dozens o' previous trump actions which were previous unthinkable, improbable and even impossible. 

am personal still in the "improbable" zone, but such does not blind us to a real possibility which for us became considerable less improbable today.

[Gorth]

He always seemed a bit of a fanboy of people like Kim and Putin. Probably envious of the power they hold over their people. He did grease increase spending, pull troops home, pardon murderers, reinstate people that had no business being in the military etc. in an attempt to stay on the good side of the military though, didn't he?

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Every time you think you've seen the worst it gets worse. I just want to find 11,780 votes’: In extraordinary hour-long call, Trump pressures Georgia secretary of state to recalculate the vote in his favor

Good riddance

I can understand Trump believing the conspiracy theories and misinformation that much of the right wing media is spreading.....but when you listen to his actual understanding of the mechanics of the election it demonstrates the real problem. He really is ignorant and uninformed and its embarrassing that he use to  be the the president of the worlds most influential and powerful country

"The Dominions are replacing the internal machine parts and shredding thousands of ballots " ....argument. Its clear he is getting updated by the likes of Newsmax and other new right wing media outlets

 

 

[BruceVC]

9 hours ago, KaineParker said:

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/532407-gohmert-talks-of-violence-in-streets-after-his-lawsuit-is-dismissed

I look forward to those who were pearl clutching about antifa and BLM to condemn their friend Louie.

Lets not make false equivalences, there is and was violence committed by the likes of Antifa and this needs to be condemned even though it was basically ignored by many because it was politically inconvenient especially by many Democrats 

Any violence committed by right wing or Trump base must also be condemned but the violence we see during BLM protests doesnt get a pass

Edited January 4, 2021 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-assange-idUKKBN299007

Big  day for Julian Assange, he will find out today if he can be extradited to the USA to face justice

I hope he is extradited as he  has always believed he is above the law and used Wikileaks to target the USA specifically and then hide behind " free speech and freedom of information" 

The USA deals effectively with people like him and I support the US approach to people like Assange who are involved in espionage and cyber-espionage 

[Skarpen]

10 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-assange-idUKKBN299007

Big  day for Julian Assange, he will find out today if he can be extradited to the USA to face justice

I hope he is extradited as he  has always believed he is above the law and used Wikileaks to target the USA specifically and then hide behind " free speech and freedom of information" 

The USA deals effectively with people like him and I support the US approach to people like Assange who are involved in espionage and cyber-espionage 

Why do you support governments killing whistleblowers? He was honored by numerous awards for his work exposing illegal and horrendous practices by governments around the world. He should be protected.

[BruceVC]

8 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

Why do you support governments killing whistleblowers? He was honored by numerous awards for his work exposing illegal and horrendous practices by governments around the world. He should be protected.

He is definitely not someone I respect or who any of us should respect, when did Julian Assange become the judge and jury of who decides what confidential US diplomatic cables should be made available to the public?

He primarily targeted the US by revealing this confidential information. If he was only leaking Polish government confidential information I am sure you would be very angry and not want him protected because he made his campaign of being a "whistleblower " personal

He is no whistleblower as he clearly has issues with the USA and that makes it a crusade and now he must face the consequences of this vendetta against the USA and the  "Western "  world generally 

[Skarpen]

14 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

He is definitely not someone I respect or who any of us should respect, when did Julian Assange become the judge and jury of who decides what confidential US diplomatic cables should be made available to the public?

He primarily targeted the US by revealing this confidential information. If he was only leaking Polish government confidential information I am sure you would be very angry and not want him protected because he made his campaign of being a "whistleblower " personal

He is no whistleblower as he clearly has issues with the USA and that makes it a crusade and now he must face the consequences of this vendetta against the USA and the  "Western "  world generally 

If he was leaking Polish government misconduct and illegal actions I would praise him with all my heart. If governments break law or commit outrageous acts then people who expose those are heroes.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Skarpen

[BruceVC]

5 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

If he was leaking Polish government misconduct and illegal actions I would praise him with all my heart. If governments break law or commit outrageous acts then people who expose those are heroes.

But many of the Wikileaks are not about possible illegal deeds and actions, they were the confidential views of diplomats and information of the US military strategy in the various arenas in the war of terror like the military missions in Iraq and other countries

This is marked " confidential " for a reason and every country in the world has the right for its diplomatic information to be kept private 

 

[Skarpen]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

This is marked " confidential " for a reason and every country in the world has the right for its diplomatic information to be kept private 

Like NSA listening to world leaders phone calls? That was private as hell 

[Zoraptor]

Maybe they could swap him for Anne Sacoolas, who unlike Assange is responsible for actually killing someone.

(The extradition has been rejected, basically due to the US having an awful prison system)

Edited January 4, 2021 by Zoraptor

[BruceVC]

11 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Maybe they could swap him for Anne Sacoolas, who unlike Assange is responsible for actually killing someone.

(The extradition has been rejected, basically due to the US having an awful prison system)

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/julian-assange-u-extradition-turned-115719791.html

That is a huge disappointment and a bad decision. I see its because of his mental state

So what? The USA has plenty of people suffering from depression in jail and they fine. I have an uncle incarcerated for being involved in financial irregularities   after 2008 and he is also depressed but the law is the law

The USA is also a first world country and Assange shouldn't be treated differently to any other criminal just because he is " depressed" ....yes amazing how people become depressed once they caught or face extradition. He wasnt depressed for years when he was leaking damaging confidential US cables 

At least this case is going to the SC where hopefully they will send him to the USA to face justice. I also dont consider the US  a banana republic and if he has nothing to answer to then he will be found innocent ? 

[Zoraptor]

If they'd said Epstein had been murdered Assange probably would have been extradited. But instead he 'committed suicide', while supposedly in supermax and under suicide watch, showing they were incapable of preventing people from killing themselves. Absolutely hilarious.

 

[BruceVC]

26 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

If they'd said Epstein had been murdered Assange probably would have been extradited. But instead he 'committed suicide', while supposedly in supermax and under suicide watch, showing they were incapable of preventing people from killing themselves. Absolutely hilarious.

 

That is a good point, Epstein committing suicide might have been a factor in this decision

A pity but it cant be ignored if you argue that from legal perspective if you are Assange's lawyer 

[Malcador]

Guess the US won't seek retribution for this.

[rjshae]

16 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

Of course, Trump's base will claim the Dems are overthrowing our democracy.

Frankly I don't recognize this Republican party any more. They seem all wrapped up in conspiracy theories, hatred, barriers, and isolationism. It isn't anything like the genial party of business conservatives I appreciated when I was younger. Both business conservatism and traditional liberal tolerance toward others now seem to be the roles of the independent US voter.

[majestic]

12 hours ago, BruceVC said:

So what? The USA has plenty of people suffering from depression in jail and they fine.

Depressed or not, there's a case to be made that nobody inside the US prison system is fine.

12 hours ago, BruceVC said:

I also dont consider the US  a banana republic and if he has nothing to answer to then he will be found innocent ? 

You're such a fascist. Guilty until proven innocent?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

6 hours ago, rjshae said:

Frankly I don't recognize this Republican party any more. They seem all wrapped up in conspiracy theories, hatred, barriers, and isolationism.

Maybe I'm just too young at an age barely under 30, but this sounds just like the Republican party I knew growing up post 9/11. My dad listens to the talk radio and they've been going on about Soros funding various schemes to cuck the white manundermine 'merica for at least 14 years now. What some of yall can't recognize is pretty much all I've ever known.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, KaineParker said:

Maybe I'm just too young at an age barely under 30, but this sounds just like the Republican party I knew growing up post 9/11. My dad listens to the talk radio and they've been going on about Soros funding various schemes to cuck the white manundermine 'merica for at least 14 years now. What some of yall can't recognize is pretty much all I've ever known.

Most people are probably quick to associate this brand of media with Alex Jones, but Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh have been peddling the crazy for decades. Not just you. Not just now.

[Bartimaeus]

2 hours ago, KaineParker said:

Maybe I'm just too young at an age barely under 30, but this sounds just like the Republican party I knew growing up post 9/11. My dad listens to the talk radio and they've been going on about Soros funding various schemes to cuck the white manundermine 'merica for at least 14 years now. What some of yall can't recognize is pretty much all I've ever known.

I think the difference is that while that crap was popular among a large segment of the rank and file voters, the top of the party itself (i.e. party leaders and actual politicians) was relatively unaffected for a long time. That's been changing in a large way since Trump, we're now seeing the party more strongly reflect the feelings of its voters. ...Which, in theory, sounds like a good thing in a democracy (and is something the Democratic Party could benefit from in some areas), but when it's fascism and hatred and disenfranchisement of others...well, not so much, not unless you're one of them.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[rjshae]

18 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

I think the difference is that while that crap was popular among a large segment of the rank and file voters, the top of the party itself (i.e. party leaders and actual politicians) was relatively unaffected for a long time. That's been changing in a large way since Trump, we're now seeing the party more strongly reflect the feelings of its voters. ...Which, in theory, sounds like a good thing in a democracy (and is something the Democratic Party could benefit from in some areas), but when it's fascism and hatred and disenfranchisement of others...well, not so much, not unless you're one of them.

One has to always bear in mind that Hitler came to power... via democracy. Many of his methods are recognizable in the current polemic discourse. This type of rabid adherence to lunatic fantasy theories is scary. I'm hoping it will reach a high water mark then recede. But thus far it just keeps getting more stupidly inane.

[BruceVC]

3 hours ago, majestic said:

 

You're such a fascist. Guilty until proven innocent?

What a strange understanding of how most legal systems work?

Assange has a history of avoiding facing his day in court. Remember he skipped his bail, which is illegal, around rape charges in Sweden which was why he camped out in the Ecuadorian embassy for years

He now faces charges in the USA and again he is refusing to face his day in court. No one is saying he will be found guilty, as I keep saying unless you think the  US justice system is broken and cannot be trusted, because  if the evidence is lacking or unconvincing he wont be charged

It seems to me you believe people just dont have to go to court when they break the law or commit a crime. So to correct your spurious comment, I believe exactly " you go to court to prove your innocence " 

You clearly  believe " you dont need to go to court if you charged with a crime, you just use your privilege and status to avoid your day in court" 

Great world you live in Majestic where famous people can avoid justice 

[Gromnir]

2 hours ago, KaineParker said:

Maybe I'm just too young at an age barely under 30, but this sounds just like the Republican party I knew growing up post 9/11. My dad listens to the talk radio and they've been going on about Soros funding various schemes to cuck the white manundermine 'merica for at least 14 years now. What some of yall can't recognize is pretty much all I've ever known.

the thing is, the alt-right/fringe element spouting conspiracy theories on radio were largely dismissed by the republican party leadership up until bannon and trump.  mccain added palin to his ticket in 2008 'cause his advisors realized how the less educated and increasing angry element o' the republican party represented a large number o' voters. not only did mccain lose, but he opined how adding palin and legitimizing her crazy were the single biggest mistake o' his campaign. post 2008, republicans went back to trying to be more inclusive as 'posed to embracing the wingnut divisiveness o' the alt-right segment... but trump success killed that.

...

am knowing people get tired o' hearing this, but as none o' the trump voters with conscience has ever responded, am gonna once again point out how the muslim ban were the turning point o' trump's campaign in 2015 and were quite possible the death knell o' the republican party as we know it, even if we didn't realize what were happening at the time. recall, every republican candidate at the time condemned trump's proposed muslim ban-- every single one. the muslim ban is what genuine distinguished trump from the other candidates. the republican party, if not ordinary republicans living in texas and florida, were at least vocal appalled to the the muslim ban, to conspiracy nonsense and to divisiveness. 2015 and the republican party, in spite of tea party elements, were desiring o' identifying its lineage as the party of lincoln and more recent, reagan. 

sure, the fringe has been around for decades, though am gonna note it were more a cultural and ethnic element than a party element. thirty years ago southern democrats were as likely to embrace the wingnut conspiracy theories and divisiveness kp sees as inextricable linked to the republican party. were not party. were culture and education which were the predictors o' the conspiracy theory element and such stuff crossed party lines. southern democrats and rust belt republicans were equal likely to embrace stoopid.

not 30 years. the great recession magnified income inequality on a massive scale. with greater income inequality came predictable greater political polarization. the same economic forces hurting rust belt farmers and factory workers were punishing low-income urban dwellers. nevertheless, 'cause o' polarization, people who is functional sharing the same freaking fox hole sees each other as the enemy. is stoopid, but alt-right radio is selling stoopid. bannon recognized how the alt-right radio elements kp mentions could mobilize a considerable voting bloc which might reshape the repuiblican party.  admitted, alt-right radio has been selling the same schtick for 30 years, but were always considered fringe.  it were fringe until after the great recession.

is a perfect storm. US republican democracy results in the possibility o' a minority nevertheless able to control all branches o' government. trump as a populist is a ridiculous notion given how relative unpopular he is, but our electoral college and genuine split legislature designed to enhance the need for bipartisan cooperation failed utterly with a President unwilling to follow norms or the Constitution. after +100 years o' Congress ceeding more and more power to the Presidency, the wisdom o' the Constitutional design began to falter.

30 years ago? nope. fifteen years past and the party were still identifying itself as a party with values espoused by reagan.  some time after the great recession, the party o' lincoln swung towards representing an electorate which woulda' been more likely to vote calvin coolidge into office than ronald reagan, and for many o' the same reasons. 

HA! Good Fun!

[ComradeYellow]

I like how the Democratic Party is conservative whilst the Republican Party is alt right.  When oh when are we going to get a left wing party to properly balance things out?  People **** on me for being anti-American and pro eastern, yet all I want here is more Democracy and at the same time radically change our view of foreign policy.  The people who look at me with a jaundice eye seem to want less Democracy and think our 2 party system is GRAND.  Hypocrites.

Also, the only good thing about 2020: Breaking911 on Twitter: "BREAKING: Businessman and former presidential candidate Andrew Yang has filed paperwork to run for mayor of New York City - WNBC" / Twitter

Andrew Yang's Predictions for 2021 Include More Cash Relief and a New Third Party (msn.com)

Growing a bit liking to this Yang fellow, he seems to advocate good centrism.  I hope we wins, if UBI happens in NYC it will inevitably spread elsewhere. 

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

I like how the Democratic Party is conservative whilst the Republican Party is alt right.  When oh when are we going to get a left wing party to properly balance things out?  People **** on me for being anti-American and pro eastern, yet all I want here is more Democracy and at the same time radically change our view of foreign policy.  The people who look at me with a jaundice eye seem to want less Democracy and think our 2 party system is GRAND.  Hypocrites.

Also, the only good thing about 2020: Breaking911 on Twitter: "BREAKING: Businessman and former presidential candidate Andrew Yang has filed paperwork to run for mayor of New York City - WNBC" / Twitter

Andrew Yang's Predictions for 2021 Include More Cash Relief and a New Third Party (msn.com)

Growing a bit liking to this Yang fellow, he seems to advocate good centrism.  I hope we wins, if UBI happens in NYC it will inevitably spread elsewhere. 

No my pseudo-Communist friend, you dont believe in more Democracy?

You support countries like China who dont even allow there citizens to vote, you support the antithesis of Democracy as the right to vote is an irrefutable foundation of a Democracy

At least be consistent in what you believe  because you definitely dont believe in Democracy when you suggest the likes of Russia and China have more effective governments than the rest of the Democratic world