Politics XXXVIII (A Nontotient)

[Bartimaeus]

My next door neighbor is the chief of police for my podunk town. His garbage can falls over literally once or twice every week and spills garbage all over, and he has to clean it up constantly, but he does nothing to prevent the situation from happening again. This has been going on for several years. From this, I can only conclude that he is an absolute brute and I should watch myself or face the consequences.

[Gromnir]

2 hours ago, Orogun01 said:

There isn't an anti-car lobby that makes acquiring licenses nearly impossible, some of the more liberal, cosmopolitan states have incredibly heavy restrictions on acquiring guns and what kind of guns you can have. 

myth. cities still need recognize second amendment, which by definition means they cannot be particular onerous. the number o' laws regarding concealed carry is infinitesimal compare to auto laws. serious gonna compare vehicle code to conceal carry laws? 

and no, gunpowder laws were not existing only 'cause o' the danger o' storage. you would like to believe such, but you don't actual know. such laws were specific used as a way to prevent functional use o' firearms in many townships even after invention o' minie ball and then cartridges. 

many people drive autos every day, and a very small number of people (relative speaking) are injured compared to hours of driving. auto use is a functional necessity in our modern world, and many of us go thousands of hours o' use w/o an accident. compare to gun use. even with safety precautions up the wahzoo, people get injured from gun use. if you could somehow compare hours o' use o' cars to guns, the numbers for gun deaths would be even more startling, which again is no surprise as firearms is designed to injure or kill. 

tell us people overreact to mass shootings? ok. we agree. now what? such recognition don't change just how deadly is firearms, which is why even in a few european nations where everybody and their grandpa seems to have a hunting rifle or shotgun, they typical has prohibitions on handguns. 

safer? numbers such as we posted, and you comical misread, make clear firearms don't offer us greater safety.

freer? portland suggests the relative extreme US citizen gun possession is not discouraging stormtroopers from coming into states and towns to violate Constitutional rights. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps irony 'bout guns making us freer bit is am beginning to suspect the vast number o' second amendment honks crowing 'bout freedom and guns would only train their arsenals on police if those agents o' tyranny were coming to take guns away from the patriots... and perhaps their booze and/or children... in order o' presumed importance. 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Gromnir

[Malcador]

2 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

I know about a dozen cops, and I rarely even remember they are police when we are hanging out. They are just normal people. Except for the former marine turned Sheriff. He's a bit intense.

Heh, that explains a lot.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

My next door neighbor is the chief of police for my podunk town. His garbage can falls over literally once or twice every week and spills garbage all over, and he has to clean it up constantly, but he does nothing to prevent the situation from happening again. This has been going on for several years. From this, I can only conclude that he is an absolute brute and I should watch myself or face the consequences.

You need to stand your ground Barti, why dont you make a citizens arrest and end this vile injustice?

[Orogun01]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

myth. cities still need recognize second amendment, which by definition means they cannot be particular onerous. the number o' laws regarding concealed carry is infinitesimal compare to auto laws. serious gonna compare vehicle code to conceal carry laws? 

and no, gunpowder laws were not existing only 'cause o' the danger o' storage. you would like to believe such, but you don't actual know. such laws were specific used as a way to prevent functional use o' firearms in many townships even after invention o' minie ball and then cartridges. 

many people drive autos every day, and a very small number of people (relative speaking) are injured compared to hours of driving. auto use is a functional necessity in our modern world, and many of us go thousands of hours o' use w/o an accident. compare to gun use. even with safety precautions up the wahzoo, people get injured from gun use. if you could somehow compare hours o' use o' cars to guns, the numbers for gun deaths would be even more startling, which again is no surprise as firearms is designed to injure or kill. 

tell us people overreact to mass shootings? ok. we agree. now what? such recognition don't change just how deadly is firearms, which is why even in a few european nations where everybody and their grandpa seems to have a hunting rifle or shotgun, they typical has prohibitions on handguns. 

safer? numbers such as we posted, and you comical misread, make clear firearms don't offer us greater safety.

freer? portland suggests the relative extreme US citizen gun possession is not discouraging stormtroopers from coming into states and towns to violate Constitutional rights. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps irony 'bout guns making us freer bit is am beginning to suspect the vast number o' second amendment honks crowing 'bout freedom and guns would only train their arsenals on police if those agents o' tyranny were coming to take guns away from the patriots... and perhaps their booze and/or children... in order o' presumed importance. 

There are a fair amount of hidden camera videos as well as news reporters who thought getting a gun would be as easy as buying fast food,  that found out how difficult the process can be made by state legislature. Never mind states that require a CCW license and make that process impossible.

I will concede that you are more familiar with legislation than I, I would love to have some sources on the gunpowder laws. For my own edification, please.

That's not how the media treats statistics, it doesn't matter if a small number of people are injured in car accidents. If they treated car accidents as they do guns, they would show the most horrific, negligent car accident and then they would quote the statistics to imply correlation. Also; car usage is not a necessity, NY relies heavily on public transport and you could say that only qualified drivers should be on the road, so only Uber/Taxi drivers with the proper permits and training are allowed. Because; another point that the anti gun people ignore is that they're not against guns, as they would like the police to still have guns. They're against private owner ship of guns

If guns don't offer safety how come the states with the most stringent regulations against gun ownership are the ones with the most gun crime?

Gun possession didn't stop the British and their sympathizers from fighting against the colonials but it did made it possible for the citizenry to oppose them.

HA! Good Talk!

[Guard Dog]

10 hours ago, Gromnir said:

 

same reasoning for lawyers. why would you ever trust a guy in a three thousand dollar suit and five hundred dollar pair o' loafers? he/she is not your friend. 'course when some dirtbag landlord is trying to evict you for no good reason, or your former boss is blacklisting you and preventing you from being hired anywhere, a lawyer may be your only friend. even more so with criminal charges, you may find yourself unexpected friendless.  accused o' some heinous crime none o' your real friends wanna be a part o', but is your lawyer who shows up at 3:00am at jail and fights for you. takes your panic'd calls when sheriff shows up at your home with a warrant and starts taking your property. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 Ha! Don't even get me started. My real estate lawyer gave me some advice on capital gains tax deferrals that led to me meeting some folks from the IRS. Let me tell you guys... THOSE sumbitches are NOT your friends!

I have a new policy when it comes to the IRS. PAY the f-----s what you owe in the year you owe it. 

[Gromnir]

y'know, the thing which bothers us 'bout all too many 2nd amendments honks is their lack o' honesty. perhaps is self delusion, and am not sure if such makes better or worse. the framers waxed poetic, but they were much aware how many liberties had a human cost. the tree o' liberty were watered with the blood o patriots... and innocents. our entire justice system is based on the notion it is better for ten guilty men to go free than for one innocent man to suffer. cold comfort for the person who is victimized by an individual who would be in prison but for the exclusionary rule. is all kinda liberties we got which make us less safe, but we endure 'cause the cost in human life is outweighed by the value o' freedom.

is no way to look at US and world firearms death numbers and conclude an abundance o' guns makes us safer. the founders, whatever their issues, weren't idiots either. the hope were guns would make us safer from tyrants, and so we as a people were willing to suffer the otherwise unnecessary firearm incidents at the hands o' our fellow citizens and ourselves, 'cause US suicide by handgun is also disproportionate high.

am not certain why is so hard for the second amendment folks to be honest.

as to safety and stringent gun law statistics, am betting you is one o' those folks amazed by maps showing covid spread as being almost identical to 5g tower locations. high population densities tend to result in higher crime and more poverty and, no surprise, increased firearm deaths. this is vol logic with his stoopid mask wacky. out in the sticks where they ain't had covid-19 spread, they also haven't bothered implementing strict mask policies, and yet everybody is fine. for vol, such is proof masks don't work. you are making same mistake with gun laws.

and no, guns are not particular hard to aquire, and your ultra-conservative media sources and their cherry picked and edited videos which leave out pertinent information hardly refutes such. similar video evidence no doubt is what has you believing in holocaust denialism. 2nd amendment put limits on just how tough it is to acquire. period. 

@Guard Dog am personal terrified o' irs even though we are perhaps overpaying a bit just to be on safe side. had one audit a few years ago which went exceeding smooth, but we took huge losses during 2008-2011 and initially the irs guys didn't believe anybody would be so foolish as to metaphorical keep throwing money into an open fire. were a real estate gamble which payed off big in post recession, but am admitting it looked sketchy. irs accepted all our losses and we literal were able to not pay taxes from 2009 through 2018, but we knew things coulda' gone sideways if the irs folks didn't believe Gromnir and our accountant. 

had a perfectly civil and cordial relation with the irs folks, but if we got an audit letter from them tomorrow, we would get the same sensation o' a thousand bees made o' ice swarming in our stomach. no doubt such a feeling would once again last for the months it would take to clear up the situation.

HA! Good Fun!

ps our fear o' irs is based on what we assume were your issue. am knowing even if we made a good faith mistake in reliance on advice from a reputable tax professional, we could still be complete and utter screwed.

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Gromnir

[Volourn]

"Woman are perverts. The popualriry of certain books and movies prove this.."

 

That comment got me a warning from Facebook. I posted it on a post referring to men as perverted scum. LMAO

[Gromnir]

11 minutes ago, Volourn said:

"Woman are perverts. The popualriry of certain books and movies prove this.."

 

That comment got me a warning from Facebook. I posted it on a post referring to men as perverted scum. LMAO

vol, the guy with the fork, is surprised by the result. what is more impressive is you know he will do it again and blame the fork or the electrical company or blm.

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

Are you arguing that women aren't perverts? Harlequin romance novels and Shades of Grey argue they are. I bet you are fine calling men perverts. That is acceptable. You sound like PM Blackface who refers to men as rapists.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Volourn

[Gromnir]

2 minutes ago, Volourn said:

Are you arguing that women aren't perverts? Harlequin romance novels and Shades of Grey argue they are. I bet you are fine calling men perverts. That is acceptable. You sound like PM Blackface who refers to men as rapists.

by definition, perversion is unacceptable behaviour. enjoyment o' shades of grey and harlequin romances is perhaps puerile, but is not considered unacceptable by a noteworthy portion o' the population.

your blanket generalizations once again makes you appear less than fully coherent and the fact you cannot grasp the problem would be curious but for two decades o' observation o' vol reason.

so go ahead and fork the socket... again.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Guard Dog]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

 

ps our fear o' irs is based on what we assume were your issue. am knowing even if we made a good faith mistake in reliance on advice from a reputable tax professional, we could still be complete and utter screwed.

 

This hits the nail on the head nicely. A few years ago my income taxes were pretty complex because I had numerous sources of income from different business ventures, the biggest of which was from employment in a company I was a partial owner of. Now they are pretty simple. My paycheck and lease income from a number of properties which does not amount to a whole lot. My state property taxes are what I have to keep an eye. TN grants credits for land used for agriculture but it is a different for commercial and family farm credit. My house qualifies for one and the grazing fields the other. But the rules seem to change frequently and without notice.

On the subject of firearms, anything said would be redundant. We've beaten that subject to death. The only thing we'd agree on is nothing is going to change. But it IS possible at some future point the 2nd Amendment may go the way of the 3rd. Still there but a solution to a problem no one has. Not in our lifetimes. But someday.

[Volourn]

Notice how Grom is offended by the fact that someone points out women can be perverted but he is fine with the assumption that men are presumed to be perverted rapists. LMAO

[Gromnir]

4 minutes ago, Volourn said:

Notice how Grom is offended by the fact that someone points out women can be perverted but he is fine with the assumption that men are presumed to be perverted rapists. LMAO

funny, we don't recall addressing such a point. you "bet" what would be our position and then argued against comments you made for us.

now you repeat the same error, like the fork.

two decades of same shtick, but with rapists and blm instead o' bioware and game features. less funny.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Malcador]

7 hours ago, Volourn said:

"Woman are perverts. The popualriry of certain books and movies prove this.."

 

That comment got me a warning from Facebook. I posted it on a post referring to men as perverted scum. LMAO

Yeah, right, as if Facebook moderates posts.

[Hurlshort]

10 hours ago, Malcador said:

Heh, that explains a lot.

It does explain some things. Years ago I didn't really understand the whole anti-police mentality. From my perspective, they were just people doing a job that paid modestly for serving the community and putting them in harms way. Outside of their uniforms, they weren't really any better or worse than any other neighbor, run buddy, or dance dad that I normally encountered. 

In fact, growing up I always thought it would be a great job. Much like with teaching, it had that unpredictable nature that I thrive in, and I felt the opportunity to have a positive impact was rich. Not to sound too sappy, but I love being in the classroom. It is a very rewarding job. 

My opinion on law enforcement has shifted dramatically over the last couple of years. I actually have a co-worker who is a good friend who was a cop for 1 year. He is an excellent teacher, just amazing with the kids and good at connecting with them. I never understood why he didn't thrive as a cop. He is empathetic, patient, and quick witted. I would think those would be ideal traits. But he didn't even like to talk about his year of law enforcement, so I never pried.

Then I took part in a community outreach program that our local PD was holding. It was 12 weeks of classes held by officers talking about their protocols and training. At the end, you could apply to be a volunteer with the police department to help with community outreach. That was interesting to me on week 1, but by week 12 I was aghast. I think I've told this part of the story a few times before, but the training they were undergoing made no sense to me. It was way more heavily focused on pseudo-military responses to situations than serving the community. De-escalation was barely a thing. Counseling, education, and outreach were all insignificant compared to aggressive tactics and military grade tech. Most of our cops live in the community and are pretty friendly, but they are trained in a way that I simply cannot condone. It suddenly made sense why my teaching buddy cut and ran after a year on the job. 

So after that I had a pretty good shift in my way of thinking about the police. 

1. I definitely was looking at it from a place of privilege. I was seeing the police as my out of uniform buddies, but the reality is in uniform they are trained to pull a gun on me at the slightest provocation. They have the right to do some terrible things to me with very little cause. That is terrifying.

2. They are extremely well-funded. Much better than education. They have the latest and the greatest in technology. They have tanks, special forces military gear, and better utility belts than Batman. So when people say defund the police, I'm on board. They could run waaaaay leaner. Here is a nice graphic than Ben & Jerry's created. 

     

[Malcador]

Yep. Should be direct and say cut their budgets some, but that is not catchy.   But people love the hammer approach to resolving crime rather than tackling it via additional avenues.

 

[Orogun01]

1 hour ago, Hurlshot said:

     

I laugh at how transparent that image is with its bias, welfare programs cost the US on average 600+ billions. So I can see why that pot of ice cream got left out or why none of the small ones on your picture show how much we spend on those programs.
I guess we can't let facts get in the way of our biases.

BTW, conflating the total US budget to support Defunding the police is a type of dangerous stupidity that will lead to people in areas that are already running underfunded asking to defund the police. More so if you defund the police in some of these states you will likely end up with police being focused on the big cities leaving the rural areas of the state running on fumes.

Nothing personal Hurl, I just don't like propaganda and i'm always skeptics of data interpretations.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Orogun01

[Orogun01]

1 minute ago, Orogun01 said:

I laugh at how transparent that image is with its bias, welfare programs cost the US on average 600+ billions. So I can see why that pot of ice cream got left out or why none of the small ones on your picture show how much we spend on those programs.
I guess we can't let facts get in the way of our biases.

BTW, conflating the total US budget to support Defunding the police is a type of dangerous stupidity that will lead to people in areas that are already running underfunded asking to defund the police. More so if you defund the police in some of these states you will likely end up with police being focused on the big cities leaving the rural areas of the state running on fumes.

Nothing personal Hurl, I just don't like propaganda and I'm always skeptics of data interpretations.

Double post, sorry.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Orogun01

[Malcador]

Aren't people focusing on the municipal budgets not the state? So cutting the LAPD, for example, isn't going to affect a rural area?

Edited July 25, 2020 by Malcador

[Volourn]

Look at this. Another racist white attacking (only verbally this time) a different George Floyd. She should lose her job for her evil racism.

His father looks so embarrassed. This is typical BLM and Antifa mindset. They don't care about the black woman who is a victim. They likely would argue that the police were in the wrong for chasing this assaulter and thief

Edited July 25, 2020 by Volourn

[Hurlshort]

1 hour ago, Orogun01 said:

 

Nothing personal Hurl, I just don't like propaganda and i'm always skeptics of data interpretations.

Hey, it was put out by an ice cream company, what do you expect?  

[Gromnir]

58 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Aren't people focusing on the municipal budgets not the state? So cutting the LAPD, for example, isn't going to affect a rural area?

US police is different than most countries. extreme decentralized. overwhelming majority o' the total US money spent on police is the budgets of municipalities and counties. lots o' municipalities and counties. rural areas will most often be covered by county sheriff's as 'posed to state police. municipalities, however, is where the people is and sadly is also where most law enforcement is needed.

am also saddened to need disagree with hurl on a few things, though we agree 'bout training. honest, malc's silly oakley and shaved head stereotype aside, we keep banging the drum on how curiously misguided typical police training is in this country. many cops are your best friend when you are in need o' help, but at first sign o' perceived danger, they do as they is trained to do. blame on some kinda flaw in character o' police complete ignores the reality o' the training such folks is receiving. huge amounts o' money is spent on training and arming cops in a way that presumes every encounter with the public is a potential life and death scenario.  have armed cops and suspects who is all believing a situation is gonna explode and is no surprise when such happens. yeah, our heavily armed populace makes policing inherent more dangerous, but police training is encouraging the casual brutality we spoke o' on previous pages o' the thread. as @Guard Dog correct predicts, we aren't gonna make major gun control changes anytime soon, so addressing the police angle is best bet for changing the current inevitability o' lethal blunders.

however, total US dollars spent on education alone far exceeds police. education budgets collective (and am just talking public elementary and secondary) is more than 5x as much spent on police. often what happens is a school district, to make a point, will compare their spending to the local city or county police budget while ignoring fact the police o' a few o' the larger police and sheriffs will cover multiple school districts worth o' territory. the education folks doing comparisons will also wanna lump in courts and correction departments.

as noted before with oro's misapprehension 'bout the location o' the strictest gun laws producing the least safety, is a few municipalities with overwhelming budgets compared to most o' US police departments, 'cause those high density urban areas is where police is needed most. everybody is channeling vol these days? point out that in places where cops have biggest budgets and most uniformed officers is also places with most crime is not proof police is unnecessary. sure, big cities have tanks and military surplus, but many citizens in this country have police service which amounts to a sheriff department with a handful o' employees covering vast areas o' territory.  converse, education dollars is spread about a bit more egalitarian. is not as if kids in montana is relegated to little house on the prairie esque one room schools with nothing more than a school marm, her trusty blackboard, and a dozen or so desks to broaden young minds. 

that isn't to say police need $115 billion or that the billions spent on police is invested wisely. is any number o' large and urban police departments which defunded partial or complete and found considerable success by investing more heavily in community outreach and counseling.

am not a fan o' biden as his single most outstanding quality is he ain't trump, which in any other year would be laughable underwhelming. however, his plan for addressing police has positives. he ain't claiming he will be encouraging or mandating defund, in part 'cause he don't have authority to do so. biden suggest that police departments which voluntarily redirect funds to more preventative aspects o' law enforcement or to the often overlooked mental health aspect o' law enforcement, should be awarded federal funds. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Volourn]

Perhaps the police budget wouldn't be so high if cities didn't have so many murders, rapes, assaults, and arsons every year. Lower this than lower the budget. While you are it, don't  call the police for 'wellness checks' and don't have the police protecting murals en masse. That cut save some $ too.  Also, don't have full police details guarding mayors and such. They can pay for their own private good squad.

[Malcador]

33 minutes ago, Volourn said:

Perhaps the police budget wouldn't be so high if cities didn't have so many murders, rapes, assaults, and arsons every year. Lower this than lower the budget. While you are it, don't  call the police for 'wellness checks' and don't have the police protecting murals en masse. That cut save some $ too.  Also, don't have full police details guarding mayors and such. They can pay for their own private good squad.

Pretty terrible ROI for the money they are spending (then again this assumes the cities are this violent hellhole as seen from outside)  But that is part of the approach to stop sending cops who can't understand how to handle mentally ill people or have better things to do that deal with the calls they have now, then there is savings from that.  

 

37 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

am also saddened to need disagree with hurl on a few things, though we agree 'bout training. honest, malc's silly oakley and shaved head stereotype aside, we keep banging the drum on how curiously misguided typical police training is in this country. many cops are your best friend when you are in need o' help, but at first sign o' perceived danger, they do as they is trained to do. blame on some kinda flaw in character o' police complete ignores the reality o' the training such folks is receiving. huge amounts o' money is spent on training and arming cops in a way that presumes every encounter with the public is a potential life and death scenario.  have armed cops and suspects who is all believing a situation is gonna explode and is no surprise when such happens. yeah, our heavily armed populace makes policing inherent more dangerous, but police training is encouraging the casual brutality we spoke o' on previous pages o' the thread.

 

Sure sounds like people with training that makes them act like thugs are not to be seen as friends, no ?