Politics XXXVII (The 12th Prime)

[Guard Dog]

24 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

so you are autonomous and independent save for when you must needs deny The State?

...

am knowing gd is keeding 'bout his ineffectual bit o' dramatic posturing, but as long as gd doesn't build a massive steel wall along his border, painted black o' course, your efforts wouldn't be as idiotic as the multi-billion dollar lunacy in which the US is engaged.

HA! Good Fun!

Too late, almost the entirety of the SH Indy Terr is already surrounded by a fence. 4' high, fieldwire, creosote treated fence posts every 5' (more or less). Of course our fence was built by me at the bargain basement price of around $700. But it's more for keeping my critters in than other stuff out. 

Well, not the two acres of the creek/river though. But I didn't buy that until four years after the fence was built. 

[Gromnir]

is the second year since 2008 we will miss the berkeley juneteenth observances, and second year in a row we miss. covid-19 has us avoiding crowds this year, so we will be observing in spirit as 'posed to person. oddly enough, as last year were first time we missed since 2008, am believing we mentioned our fail on the obsidian message board. 

and to be complete honest, our primary inspiration for making the drive to the bay area to be observing juneteenth is the music festival which is part o' berkeley's offering. not need to go to berkeley for juneteenth, but is worth the drive for the music.

HA! Good Fun!

ps a 4' high wood and wire fence along the US-mexico border would be no less effective a solution than the steel monstrosity, but it would be far cheaper.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-06-12/protective-shield-erected-around-cenotaph-and-winston-churchill-statue-ahead-of-protests-in-london/

It really is completely unacceptable that groups within the BLM protests vandalize important statues like the Cenotaph in London, these groups need to arrested and charged as quickly as possible  

 

[Azdeus]

18 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

I am pleased to announce my secession from the United States. From now on my 26.5 acres will be known as the Southern Hatchee Independent Territory. I considered abbreviating that but the Minister of Tourism feels it might not make a good impression. On behalf of myself, Vice President Sunny Smiles and Representative Duke, Speaker of the Hen House of Representatives we would like to welcome all tourists to visit the Southern Hatchee Independent Territory. No passports are required. Entry tax is 1 bottle of Bourbon whiskey (products of Kentucky are preferred) and the willingness to share said bottle with the President of the Territory. 

The Southern Hatchee Independent Territory is not open for immigration at this time. 

Hey, if those s--t heads in Seattle can do it so can I!

Once this COVID **** is done and dealt with, I'll take you up on that and have you regret writing those words

[IndiraLightfoot]

One would think that police forces all over the US would be extra careful exercising any force involving hand guns and resorting to such violent solutions to their policing duties, but sadly this doesn't seem to be the case everywhere. I just read about the Rayshard Brooks case in Atlanta. How could a sleeping intoxicated fellow blocking entry with his car and a few officers escalate into such excessive force and even risk a lethal incident? It bogs my mind in so many ways... 

[Guard Dog]

54 minutes ago, IndiraLightfoot said:

One would think that police forces all over the US would be extra careful exercising any force involving hand guns and resorting to such violent solutions to their policing duties, but sadly this doesn't seem to be the case everywhere. I just read about the Rayshard Brooks case in Atlanta. How could a sleeping intoxicated fellow blocking entry with his car and a few officers escalate into such excessive force and even risk a lethal incident? It bogs my mind in so many ways... 

You'd be wrong for thinking that. It actually did escalate because of the suspect. He failed a field sobriety test. It's a DUI easy. But he fought back, punched one of the cops and grabbed a taster and started running away.

Now, here is where bad went to worse. As he is running away he points the taser back at the pursuing cop. The cop pulls his weapon (which, up to this point, was holstered) and shot the suspect in the back.

On the first look the cops actions are not unreasonable. A taser is a weapon. But it is not a deadly weapon and in the hands of a fleeing suspect posed no threat to either cop. They had his name, license, car and keys. That guy was not going to get away even if he ran. So the pursuit was probably unnecessary. No pursuit and the suspect does not get shot.  IMO only, I think the cop was mad about being punched, mad about his partner's taser and that drove him to pursue.

There is a lot of gray area in this one. This is not George Floyd where he died after a curel, calculated, and deliberate act for no purpose other than torture. 

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

You'd be wrong for thinking that. It actually did escalate because of the suspect. He failed a field sobriety test. It's a DUI easy. But he fought back, punched one of the cops and grabbed a taster and started running away.

Now, here is where bad went to worse. As he is running away he points the taser back at the pursuing cop. The cop pulls his weapon (which, up to this point, was holstered) and shot the suspect in the back.

On the first look the cops actions are not unreasonable. A taser is a weapon. But it is not a deadly weapon and in the hands of a fleeing suspect posed no threat to either cop. They had his name, license, car and keys. That guy was not going to get away even if he ran. So the pursuit was probably unnecessary. No pursuit and the suspect does not get shot.  IMO only, I think the cop was mad about being punched, mad about his partner's taser and that drove him to pursue.

There is a lot of gray area in this one. This is not George Floyd where he died after a curel, calculated, and deliberate act for no purpose other than torture. 

Nice summary, puts somethings in the correct perspective 

[IndiraLightfoot]

2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

 They had his name, license, car and keys. That guy was not going to get away even if he ran. So the pursuit was probably unnecessary. No pursuit and the suspect does not get shot.  IMO only, I think the cop was mad about being punched, mad about his partner's taser and that drove him to pursue.

There is a lot of gray area in this one. This is not George Floyd where he died after a curel, calculated, and deliberate act for no purpose other than torture. 

Thx for filling me in on some info the article I read didn't account for. Yeah, then it makes a bit more sense, given him attacking them etc., but yeah, the pursuit was where it all went south fast. Was he really that big of a danger to society when he ran away in that instance? Why not just call for backup and catch him, using more manpower and safer tools for that kind of job (catching him - rather than stuff that might kill him)?

Edited June 14, 2020 by IndiraLightfoot

[HoonDing]

If he were white he'd still be alive.

[Raithe]

CNN - Poland accidentally invaded the Czech Republic

 

The Polish military has admitted it accidentally invaded the Czech Republic last month, but it insists its brief occupation of a small part of the country was simply a "misunderstanding."

Polish soldiers mistakenly crossed the country's border with Czech Republic in late May before setting up there, the Czech foreign ministry told CNN.

The soldiers, who had been guarding parts of the closed Polish-Czech border during the coronavirus pandemic, then started turning away Czech citizens who were attempting to visit a church in their own country.

 

The snafu led the Czech embassy in Warsaw to take "immediate action" and notify its Polish counterpart, the Czech government told CNN, adding that Poland has still not formally explained why it mistakenly annexed its neighbor.

"Our Polish counterparts unofficially assured us that this incident was merely a misunderstanding caused by the Polish military with no hostile intention, however, we are still expecting a formal statement," a Foreign Ministry spokesperson told CNN.

 

[Guard Dog]

54 minutes ago, IndiraLightfoot said:

Thx for filling me in on some info the article I read didn't account for. Yeah, then it makes a bit more sense, given him attacking them etc., but yeah, the pursuit was where it all went south fast. Was he really that big of a danger to society when he ran away in that instance? Why not just call for backup and catch him, using more manpower and safer tools for that kind of job (catching him - rather than stuff that might kill him)?

Exactly. Coulda, shoulda, woulda. But people are mad it happened and they are going to be madder when criminal charges are not filed on him. The firing will stick. And it should. The cop did not need to shoot a fleeing man in the back. But with a weapon, even a taser, in the suspect's hand there is more than a fig leaf to hide behind for justification. They DA would likely never get a conviction. No charges will be more palatable to the mob than an acquittal. 

[Chilloutman]

14 minutes ago, Raithe said:

CNN - Poland accidentally invaded the Czech Republic

 

 

 

it was big nothing burger. Poles sometimes try this but we kick their butts back and are friends again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Czechoslovak_War

[Chilloutman]

20 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Too late, almost the entirety of the SH Indy Terr is already surrounded by a fence. 4' high, fieldwire, creosote treated fence posts every 5' (more or less). Of course our fence was built by me at the bargain basement price of around $700. But it's more for keeping my critters in than other stuff out. 

Well, not the two acres of the creek/river though. But I didn't buy that until four years after the fence was built. 

too bad, you missed great opportunity to adopt rational measurement system in the process. Also is there international airport or how do you handle foreigner policies? I am mainly talking about Visas...

[BruceVC]

28 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

If he were white he'd still be alive.

Really difficult to say, Im not sure 

[Guard Dog]

1 hour ago, HoonDing said:

If he were white he'd still be alive.

If he were black and had not punched a cop, grabbed a taser and pointed it at a cop he would still be alive.... probably

[Guard Dog]

A Crash in the Dollar Is Coming

And

$26T and increasing at a rate of $11,500 per second

Look at it this way.... no one will give a f-k about whose lives matter when a loaf of bread costs $1k. And it IS coming. But, f--k it. I'm prepared. How about you guys?

Edited June 14, 2020 by Guard Dog
Forgot the link

[Guard Dog]

This is an actual quote from Joe Biden, 4/5/2020

JOE BIDEN: “We cannot let this, we’ve never allowed any crisis from the Civil War straight through to the pandemic of 17, all the way around, 16, we have never, never let our democracy sakes second fiddle, way they, we can both have a democracy and — correct the public health.”

 

God we are soooo screwed

Edited June 14, 2020 by Guard Dog

[Gromnir]

2 hours ago, HoonDing said:

If he were white he'd still be alive.

depends.

for those curious 'bout brooks situation:

1) do a search for fleeing felon rule. you may be surprised.

2) tasers is not nice, but is not the core problem

the suspect didn't just point the taser at the cops following him. watch video close. looks as if mr. brooks discharges the device-- possibly even hit the nearest pursuer. cop stumbles immediate after taser is discharged by brooks and falls against a car. taser is kinda a red herring though. the suspect had already shown a willingness to assault police officers in their earlier attempt to arrest him. cop training almost anywhere would establish that the subject in question is dangerous, and cop training and reasoning is simple: a suspect who has shown a willingness to use force on police is a threat to public. ipso facto...

3) @HoonDing is actual right 'bout race, but am not thinking for reasons most will embrace... as usual, many will disagree with Gromnir.

regardless o' race, once you trigger cop training and experience regarding violence, you have already passed the rubicon.  vol enjoys posting videos and links to events where white folks suffered at the hands o' cops. he is wrong to claim there is no cop racism 'cause such events occur, but it is true cops is less hesitant to use excess force 'pon whites than many would like to believe. is not as if this stuff only happens to minorities. once you put a cop in a situation where they is needing respond to challenges to authority and situations which has possibility o' putting self, other officers or innocent bystanders at risk, then far too many cops will use force, and then punish the suspect for providing the cop an excuse to use force. 

need serious changes to training.

HOWEVER

...

the racism likely started before the drama and not once we saw the suspect fighting with cops-- punching 'em, grabbing the taser, fleeing and then discharging taser at pursuers. if cops show up and find a drunk guy asleep in his car at a wendy's drive-thru, and the guy is white, how much effort do the "protect and serve" cops make to see that drunk guy gets a ride home... safe?  even if suspect is drunk and belligerent and repeated fails the attitude test, particular if suspect is appearing to be an upstanding, middle-class white guy, the first impulse o' cops on scene is gonna be other than arrest.

yeah, arrest is ez to argue is reasonable. brooks failed sobriety and fell asleep at wheel at a wendy's-- this is not a person you give a citation to and then send him on his way. brooks is exactly the guy who gets in an accident minutes later and kills multiple people 'cause he were too drunk to drive safe. drunk tanks at local jails o' every major city is filled with such people all too often. is not gonna be difficult for cops to show it were complete reasonable to arrest brooks.

nevertheless, the whole situation coulda' played out different if the cops were more inclined to help brooks. a couple o' atlanta cops came across a drunk black man in a parking lot. what are chances brooks were belligerent? am suspecting brooks failed the attitude test immediate. drunk white guy in same situation and the cops woulda' been more likely to channel their inner andy griffith, perhaps rolling their eyes a bit, but doing everything they can to get drunk guy home safe.

@IndiraLightfoot asks why cops weren't more careful and aware given situation. from cop pov, and as hard as may be to believe, they probable were being careful. the initial skuffle, even after the suspect became violent, did not see the cops respond with night sticks and other similar heavy-handed options. from cop pov, they no doubt believed they were being careful. have tried to explain how casual is cop violence on these boards. initial skuffle were, God save us all, restrained. however, in a high pressure situation, cop training and experience takes over, as it is s'posed to do. brooks, a fleeing felon, escapes from cops and fires taser at one pursuer, possible hitting him. 

again, need serious changes to cop training.

regardless, am thinking many people is gonna be shocked by the actual results o' the now inevitable case 'gainst the cops.

oh, and for the fox viewers, 

Atlanta erupts after Rayshard Brooks death prompts police chief to step down

story at fox focuses on the violence o' the protesters. 

is unfortunate when protesters respond with violence, 'cause many of those moderate white voters whose support the protesters need if there is gonna be meaningful change, see brooks video and is appalled, but they see wendy's burn and is similar horrified. 

[Orogun01]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

A Crash in the Dollar Is Coming

And

$26T and increasing at a rate of $11,500 per second

Look at it this way.... no one will give a f-k about whose lives matter when a loaf of bread costs $1k. And it IS coming. But, f--k it. I'm prepared. How about you guys?

Seems like one of those shortsighted predictions that assumes that the unrest in the US will continue and looks at the US in a vacuum. Everyone else in the globe is doing poorly thanks to the Wuhan flu, no one will turn their economy away from one of the biggest trading partners in the globe during this time. A short term inflation is likely in the way, but that can be eased through rationing as a lot of stores have been doing.

[Guard Dog]

51 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

 

r if suspect is appearing to be an upstanding, middle-class white guy, the first impulse o' cops on scene is gonna be other than arrest.

 

I'm sorry but no. If they find you passed out drunk at the wheel, unless the cop and suspect actually know each other and are friendly, that guy IS getting a DUI. In fact if it went any other way I would definitely call the cop negligent. 

[Gromnir]

11 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

I'm sorry but no. If they find you passed out drunk at the wheel, unless the cop and suspect actually know each other and are friendly, that guy IS getting a DUI. In fact if it went any other way I would definitely call the cop negligent. 

misunderstand. dui and arrest is not same. sure, you get a citation no matter what, but arrest is not same. if brooks had been a white guy slumped behind wheel, he woulda' gotten the dui once he failed sobriety, but that is not same as arrest.

HA! Good Fun!

ps we did specific address just this point btw. brooks, regardless o' race, were not a guy who would be given a citation and then sent on his way.

*shrug* 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Gromnir

[Guard Dog]

9 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

misunderstand. dui and arrest is not same. sure, you get a citation no matter what, but arrest is not same. if brooks had been a white guy slumped behind wheel, he woulda' gotten the dui once he failed sobriety, but that is not same as arrest.

HA! Good Fun!

ps we did specific address just this point btw. brooks, regardless o' race, were not a guy who would be given a citation and then sent on his way.

*shrug* 

I've never heard of a DUI that did not lead to arrest. Every state I've ever lived in that was an automatic trip to the pokey.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Given the state of things in the US atm, I'd expect that anybody approached by police will be even more nervous and on edge. If you were intoxicated and part of an exposed minority group, there is a clear possibility of you making panicky moves and simply put yourself at risk of the officers violent responses they've been taught and told to perform according to US law. In short, this situ must be a powder keg. Avoiding the police altogether is your safest bet, that's for sure.

[Gromnir]

Just now, Guard Dog said:

I've never heard of a DUI that did not lead to arrest. Every state I've ever lived in that was an automatic trip to the pokey.

then you really don't know how cops behave in many/most jurisdictions. dui is not necessarily a one-way ticket to jail. particular in many a rural jurisdiction, and especial if the drunkard is underage (but not limited to such) the police as often as not drive the bleary-eyed driver home rather than drive to jail. etc.

there is many states which do require minimum jail time following a dui offense, but even then, you need not be arrested. may need show up voluntarily for court/jail, but...

but again, we did note how arrest is always gonna be ez to argue as reasonable. cops will take a bit more effort if they is sympathetic and sympathy is in far less supply for minorities dealing with cops. once cops got brooks out of the cars and presumable got keys away from him, then immediate danger to public were over. no need to resort to violence.

HA! Good Fun!

[Raithe]