Politics XXXVI (will catch up to superbowls soon)

[Skarpen]

1 hour ago, KaineParker said:

It's interesting that the protesters are using the same tactics as elsewhere (such as Hong Kong) but the reaction from a lot of folks is completely different.

Are they? I didn't recall seeing footage of HK protesters looting and attacking other citizens. 

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

Sort of funny to put up next to some cops sitting on a guy and killing him that way. 

Police hurting citizen is now a permission to hurt other citizens? No, sorry. This is not acceptable by any means. And using a persons death to justify crimes is reprehensible. 

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, Skarpen said:

Police hurting citizen is now a permission to hurt other citizens? No, sorry.

Heh, maybe Lee was on to something about the ending to Do the Right Thing 

Cops arresting the reporter on air is proof that the MPD has very high recruiting standards.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Malcador

[213374U]

  

2 hours ago, Skarpen said:

Police hurting citizen is now a permission to hurt other citizens? No, sorry. This is not acceptable by any means. And using a persons death to justify crimes is reprehensible. 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that "protesters" have carte blanche to loot and pillage. But that's the thing with social order breakdowns, they are antithetical to the law, they aren't proportional, and they aren't reasonable. Going moralistic about it is unhelpful because a moral failure of society -whether perceived or actual- is almost invariably a causing factor.

Gotta love Trump casually threatening to send in the troops to shoot citizens and no one bats an eyelash. It's always these self-satisfied, cowardly types that are quick to volunteer others to die or wield deadly force in their stead. But what's truly sad about it is how often it is mistaken for "leadership" by the masses. What's that about the worst system except for all the others, again?

Edited May 29, 2020 by 213374U
add quote

[Skarpen]

23 minutes ago, 213374U said:

Gotta love Trump casually threatening to send in the troops to shoot citizens and no one bats an eyelash

Nothing casual about this I think. And it's not like the threat is peaceful protesters. Criminals are citizens to, but as far as I recall those are the types civil society is ok with using violence against. 

[213374U]

Civil society is only "ok" with using violence against suspects in as much as it is reasonable, justified and necessary. It's debatable whether calling in troops to fire at looters would meet that standard, but I'm leaning towards "no".

edit: so riots break out ostensibly over police brutality and perceived disregard for the lives of minorities. The answer must be... an escalation from police brutality to military brutality? Color me unconvinced.

Edited May 29, 2020 by 213374U

[Malcador]

35 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

Nothing casual about this I think. And it's not like the threat is peaceful protesters. Criminals are citizens to, but as far as I recall those are the types civil society is ok with using violence against. 

But is deadly force warranted here? And his comments are pretty casual, they really add nothing useful to the situation - I guess other than for his image.

They arrested the cop on his neck -https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/29/derek-chauvin-arrested-george-floyd-death-minneapolis-police-officer/ 

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Malcador

[HoonDing]

Which president was it who told police to "rough them up a little"

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Calling in the troops would be more likely to make protests more radical, it's like people haven't learned anything from the history of state repression.

[Skarpen]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

But is deadly force warranted here?

Using National Guard doesn't mean deadly force. As far as I know they have training in controling riot situation. It's not like marines will drop and start depopulating the area.

[Guard Dog]

Forget the national guard, no good comes of that. Suppose for a moment I owned a pawn shop or something and was holed up inside gunning down looters as they came in. Any problems with that? None that I see.

[Malcador]

10 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Forget the national guard, no good comes of that. Suppose for a moment I owned a pawn shop or something and was holed up inside gunning down looters as they came in. Any problems with that? None that I see.

I don't imagine the NG is going to deploy with some insane RoE and only have lethal force. US troops didn't operate that way in Iraq (in theory..).  So may not result in matters being worse.  As for your scenario, no good is definitely coming out of that and I don't believe that is legal in Minnesota - deadly force is only permitted to save a life, rather than a TV.

I guess what you could do, is shoot the stuff they are looting.  If you were a good shot.   Or if you want a reasonable idea, you could just announce the weapon and people will just stay away.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

22 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Forget the national guard, no good comes of that. Suppose for a moment I owned a pawn shop or something and was holed up inside gunning down looters as they came in. Any problems with that? None that I see.

Aside from the moralistic (dare I say Christian?) argument of valuing life over tvs or the possibility of going to jail over excessive force? There's more of them than you and you'd be better off scamming your insurance for damages than risking getting beaten to death when you're trying to reload.

[213374U]

18 minutes ago, Malcador said:

I don't imagine the NG is going to deploy with some insane RoE and only have lethal force.

Thankfully, even if military commanders got their ROE straight from Trump (do they?) those don't apply domestically. NG in support of law enforcement ops are still bound by State law with regards to the use of force. Which only adds to the tweet faux pas.

[Raithe]

What was it someone once said.. "We train our soldiers to kill. Then we give them strict Rules of Engagement, and trust them not to kill potential enemy combatants in the worst of situations when their lives are in danger. The police are trained to protect and serve, but are cheerfully allowed to shoot down their own citizens because it's potentially too dangerous to give them a chance and there's a risk they might get harmed themselves."

Yes, that might be paraphrasing it a touch, but it was an interesting point.

[Skarpen]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

Forget the national guard, no good comes of that. Suppose for a moment I owned a pawn shop or something and was holed up inside gunning down looters as they came in. Any problems with that? None that I see.

Well you might run out of ammo.

[Orogun01]

I cannot understand why someone would be on the side of the looters, I guess some people don't value their property, safety and don't care about that of others.
And nobody better dare come up with the whole "marginalized" spiel, maybe some dumb white mothereffers believe that but I know brown people that barely speak the language that are surviving and struggling to do better. If you can't make your life better in the US its because you're not trying.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

38 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

I cannot understand why someone would be on the side of the looters, I guess some people don't value their property, safety and don't care about that of others.

If it's the looters or the cops, I'll side with the looters just as I do in the conflict of Hong Kong.

42 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

If you can't make your life better in the US its because you're not trying.

Ever been to appalachia or the rust belt?

[Orogun01]

9 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

If it's the looters or the cops, I'll side with the looters just as I do in the conflict of Hong Kong.

Ever been to appalachia or the rust belt?

One are fighting for freedom from a totalitarian regime, the other are using a man's death as an excuse to ransack stores. If you think they're the same you're mental.

Never been to Appalachia, I have however met lots of Hispanics that walked a desert to be here. They don't have legs in Appalachia?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

26 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

One are fighting for freedom from a totalitarian regime, the other are using a man's death as an excuse to ransack stores

You can just as easily say one is fighting against police repression while the other is using a law designed to charge a murderer as an exuse to ransack stores. Both are movements against encroaching police states and both have actors who engage in rioting, looting, and assault. If you're going to support one but not the other it's because you have biases outside of objecting to violence and crime.

Folks in Appalachia got legs, I assume that holds true for folks in the rust belt. What they don't got is money or opportunities to get it. Given your apparent politics I'd assume you'd be familiar because they were a big factor in the narrative about how damaging free trade has been.

[Orogun01]

9 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

You can just as easily say one is fighting against police repression while the other is using a law designed to charge a murderer as an exuse to ransack stores. Both are movements against encroaching police states and both have actors who engage in rioting, looting, and assault. If you're going to support one but not the other it's because you have biases outside of objecting to violence and crime.

Folks in Appalachia got legs, I assume that holds true for folks in the rust belt. What they don't got is money or opportunities to get it. Given your apparent politics I'd assume you'd be familiar because they were a big factor in the narrative about how damaging free trade has been.

...so there's such a dangerous police state that the police station was burned down and the looters are allowed to rampage.  I'm going to support HK because I know China is a totalitarian dictatorship. I'm not going to support looting because that's just robbery, HK has near no reports of looting or damage to property. Saying that they're the same its like saying ISIS are like the founding fathers.

I don't know what you assume my "apparent politics" are; but my point its simple, people can make it in this country. How come every other racial minority has made it here, some to the point that they're being handicapped by institutions? You just don't see behavior like this from other minority groups.

[Volourn]

The cop is a scumbag piece of crap who should be in prison if not hung. That is what he deserves.

The rioters (not protestors) are scumbags. And, if they  physically assault people  they should be hung. And, if they rob people they should be inprisoned.

The cop being a criminal doesn't give you the right to be criminal.

 A fake news quote tied to Mike Tyson sattes it best: "If white people rioted every time a black person  assaulted or murdered a white person, they'd always be rioting."

 

The biggest issue with scumbag cops is not racism ( seen by  black cops killing black people, black cops killing white people, Asian cops killing white people, latino cops killing Asian people). The issue is power, and abuse because the badge is more important than anything or anyone else.

 

FRY THE SCUMBAG COP. DON'T TARGET INNOCENT STORE OWNERS.

[213374U]

28 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

I don't know what you assume my "apparent politics" are; but my point its simple, people can make it in this country. How come every other racial minority has made it here, some to the point that they're being handicapped by institutions? You just don't see behavior like this from other minority groups.

Keep going.

[Malcador]

4 hours ago, Skarpen said:

Using National Guard doesn't mean deadly force. As far as I know they have training in controling riot situation. It's not like marines will drop and start depopulating the area.

Well, the casual threat to start shooting is that.

And they attacked the CNN building in Atlanta, for some reason. Well, Trump will approve of that.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Malcador

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

31 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

so there's such a dangerous police state that the police station was burned down and the looters are allowed to rampage.

Yes, crowd control is a different animal than surveillance or police brutality. When the dust settles you're going to see prosecution of everyone that the state can identify, and some "suicides". This also is what is happening in Honk Kong, as opposed to the tanks being rolled in to massacre protesters.

31 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

I'm going to support HK because I know China is a totalitarian dictatorship. I'm not going to support looting because that's just robbery, HK has near no reports of looting or damage to property

Then I can only assume your knowledge of Hong Kong comes solely from western media or that you think that broken glass and fire materializes out of air.

31 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

I don't know what you assume my "apparent politics" are; but my point its simple, people can make it in this country

I assume you're a /pol/yp nationalist that developed into the Trump Internet Defense Force rather than admit you'd been had. I got your point, I gave you an example of some people who haven't made it in this country who aren't a racial minority and have similarly poor living standards to the minority you allude to.

34 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

How come every other racial minority has made it here, some to the point that they're being handicapped by institutions? You just don't see behavior like this from other minority groups.

I've played this game hundreds of times at this point. Just come out and say what you think about this particular minority group.

[HoonDing]

inb4 racial iq