OP Classes

[Walden]

What would you consider the most over-powered single class or multi class character if you EXCLUDED monks?

[Phyriel]

It's hard to define op in this game - you want a build that CAN do ultimate or rather a build that is explosive OP but needs support? or is immortal but feels like wet noodle when it comes to damage and overall "feel" 

Anyway...

Builds that beat Ultimate probably - Tactician/Skaen if I recall to get brilliant buff that regens resources forever and casting priest buffs to be immortal - fun right? Yawn

Most answers you'll get tho will be builds that are tailored to beat Ultimate which are builds that exploit a fishy mechanics of some buffs / item procs like brilliant or wall of draining making it OP using same boring combo each fight. Keep in mind these builds are OP at high lvl and level up using non-violent quests because they are useless before they go online after unlocking their gimmick combos so if you're not after some autistic achievement and want to test these builds for funzies i'd probably advice to just console your way in. 

If we talk "normal" game and not masochistic autism fiesta which is Ultimate then I'd say Wizard as single class because empowered last tier nukes - you probably won't solo mega bosses as wizard nuker on potd tho - not sure. 

I currently play solo trickster/steel garotte 2h riposte build on potd - it's pretty op.

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Phyriel

[Elric Galad]

The most broken thing in the game is Priest in my opinion, mostly because Brillant (that you can get from items) + Salvation of Time is broken. Throw Barring Death Door in the mix and you can Auto Win any fights without Dispells including Dorudugan and Belranga.

[Boeroer]

There are no overpowered classes per se (just one truly overpowered thing which is Brilliant). Monk isn't overpowered as well.  It's just good a many things.

Steel Garotte/Trickster with Whispers of the Endless Paths is good and fun. But that also has its shortcomings. 
 

If you really want to name a class that can cheese itself into invincible mode then surely it's Priest - just because of Salvation of Time + Brilliant (and then Barring Death's Door). But it's also tedious to do all that SoT-casting in order to reach that state. Bloodmage with Wall of Draining is also a candidate but not as easy to pull off (because you need enemies to hit and drain from).

If you want to cheese with invisibility + Brilliant then Tactician/Assassin might be your thing. Becoming invisible can trigger Brilliant Tactician. Applying Gouging Strike will prevent the encounter from ending even if you are invisible. So you can do every encounter like: shooting an enemy with Gouging Strike --> turn invisible --> become brilliant --> shooting an enemy --> turn invisible --> become brilliant and so on. They will all die eventually while you are quite safe.

In theory every character could be OP if you just look at Gouging Strike, Brand Enemy and Lover's Embrace. All you need to do is hit an enemy once and then vanish (best is Rogue of course, but also Wizard with Arkemy's Brilliant Departure or somebody wearing Rust's Poignard), hide somewhere out of sight and wait till one enemy is dead. Encounter ends --> repeat. There are a few encounters where that doesn't work due to limited space, but you could win most encounters of the game that way.    

Edited May 10, 2020 by Boeroer

[abot]

limited spaces excluded (where you can't hide yourself/Vela) if you like micro management and patience trobadour/psion with pain link on summons can also win anything not auto healing in time (pain link is like a 3 x always hitting riposte for 25% damage, the harder they hit the sooner they go down, especially if they have engagement)

Edited May 10, 2020 by abot

[Kaylon]

Priest and wizard combos are very strong, but they require lots of buffing (which becomes very tedious in the long run) and are vulnerable to dispelling. Tactician's trick (become brilliant while invisible) is good for solo, but not if you have a party. For party game play the strongest classes are the Darcozzi paladin/troubadour (the swiss knife of the game) or the Darcozzi paladin/bloodmage (requires minor buffing, but has access to powerful nukes) both being solid from the start to the end. (you can replace the Darcozzi with Steel Garrote if you want to be evil).

[Walden]

If you used Whispers of the Endless Paths with a Holy Slayer couldn’t you skip the offensive parry upgrade and take blade form instead? You’d have riposte from the rogue skill tree.

[Boeroer]

If you have high Deflection (e.g. Paladin/Trickster) then Offensive Parry is always the better choice because it's an attack with 0 attack time and 0 recovery which can take place while you are casting stuff or drinking a potion or are in the middle of recovery. It procs on 100%(!) of melee misses and stacks with Riposte which has only a 20% proc chance (you can trigger Offensive Parry AND a Riposte from the same miss). This is very good with a Steel Garotte/Trickster because WotEP dazes automatically with Offensive Parry - which means the Steel Garotte can drain life with his parries without doing anything.  

Blade Form is okay if you don't have high deflection. But then I'd also skip Riposte.
It is also better if you play with Turn Based because in TB mode very few misses occur (the grazing range is much bigger than in RTwP mode where misses are much more likely to happen).

Edited May 10, 2020 by Boeroer

[Walden]

I’d assume the deflection bonuses from the illusion spells in the trickster skill tree are enough on their own that you wouldn’t have to put any points in resolve on character creation, no?

[Boeroer]

If I would go for Offensive Parry I would max RES - because deflection has increasing returns. 10 points of stackable deflection is a lot. Mirrored Images is nice but it gets lowered per hit (also includes spell hits that don't target deflection) and it also doesn't work when Arcane Dampener hits you (which is common at higher levels against wizards and wizard-like enemies like liches, fampyrs and so on). Also if you get hit by Minor Missiles all Mirrored Images will be gone. 

If you take Blade Form then you can leave RES where it is.  

[Walden]

To max RES would make this a very attribute heavy build. You would want intellect for buff duration and area of effect, might for healing, dexterity for action speed and perception for accuracy. You could max resolve, but would only be left with 10 points for the rest of the attributes. How would you spread it out?

[Phyriel]

2 hours ago, Walden said:

To max RES would make this a very attribute heavy build. You would want intellect for buff duration and area of effect, might for healing, dexterity for action speed and perception for accuracy. You could max resolve, but would only be left with 10 points for the rest of the attributes. How would you spread it out?

No, illusion spells dont quite cover build to be OP. You need to max out on deflection in all ways possible. 

Max resolve, you really need ****ton of deflection to get any damage from this build as its damage comes from defense. You can go dump con because you're not getting hit much. I went high per, left dex at 10 and increased might and int to balanced values, you don't really need that much int for durations as buffs you have access to have long base durations, if anything int is good to futher buff Will save (you get dampened and you become instantly both wet noodle and squishy with limp 2h **** in your hand = they don't miss you don't counterattack/riposte = no damange, with high Will even if you get hit its mostly graze and last very short time) and also to get more aoe range. You might wanna time your escape but not to escape (you still want to be surrounded when you get that +50 deflection to get few extra guaranteed counters/ripostes) when you see enemies charging some potentially facemelting abilities that target deflection 

When it comes to gear its also all deflection focused - Casita Semalia, Intimidation stacking etc

Edited May 11, 2020 by Phyriel

[Boeroer]

I agree. MIG doesn't need to be stellar because of Sneak Attack/Deathblows.

Instead of the Casita Breastplate you can also use Nomad's Brigandine (if not solo). It will give you +10 deflection in melee if your buddies aren't too far away without skill requirements, it has higher AR (which is good on combo with the Paladin's AR passives and the dating from Offensive Parry). It also has a great enchantment that makes you immune to disengagement attacks (not engagement itself): that means that if you disengage the following disengagement attack will miss 100% --> Offensive Parry and potential Riposte. Although Casita's Breastplate with Intimidate fits a Steel Garotte nicely. 

Besides that you want Bracers of Greater Deflection, Cloak of Greater Deflection, RES items, Entonia Signet ring and so on. Inspiring Triumph, too  At the same time you (and your party members) want to reduce ACC of enemies with stuff like Blind (see the Beacon abilities) but also Devotions for the Faithful and such.

Escape can be prolonged with a Priest's Salvation of time and gives you +50 deflection, too. Again: not solo of course.

A great late game item is the Mask of the Weyc because its +50 deflection bonus at the start of combat stacks with everything (except Escape). In solo runs it's a bit too short but with a party it's quite great (also because Salvation of Time etc.).

[Rimiu]

On 5/11/2020 at 12:13 AM, Boeroer said:

If you have high Deflection (e.g. Paladin/Trickster) then Offensive Parry is always the better choice because it's an attack with 0 attack time and 0 recovery which can take place while you are casting stuff or drinking a potion or are in the middle of recovery. It procs on 100%(!) of melee misses and stacks with Riposte which has only a 20% proc chance (you can trigger Offensive Parry AND a Riposte from the same miss). This is very good with a Steel Garotte/Trickster because WotEP dazes automatically with Offensive Parry - which means the Steel Garotte can drain life with his parries without doing anything.  

Blade Form is okay if you don't have high deflection. But then I'd also skip Riposte.
It is also better if you play with Turn Based because in TB mode very few misses occur (the grazing range is much bigger than in RTwP mode where misses are much more likely to happen).

 

This sounds fun. I saw you commenting somewhere else on Steel Garrote/Blood Mage too. I really like the idea of that as well. Makes me think of a Death Knight if you use Concelhaut's Corrosive Siphon that you mentioned.

 

Since you played both, which one did you like more? I know fun is subjective but your builds were always fun to play for me. (Even been using PoE1 builds from you in the past!).

Edited May 15, 2020 by Rimiu

[Boeroer]

Steel Garotte/Trickster does way more damage with Offensive Parry (and the occasional Riposte) but has lower defenses and limited resources.

Keep in mind that the Bloodmage can stack Arcane Veil and Llengrath's Safeguard for +70 to deflection (and +20 to the other defenses and +5 AR) which won't get reduced when getting hit and can prolong that stuff endlessly (in theory) with Wall of Draining. You can trigger Safeguard easily with Blood Sacrifice. Also self damaging stuff like Sacred Immolation and Alacrity are no problem when you can prolong Hands of Light and such effects in addition to draining - while the Trickster "only" has a limited supply of +30 deflection from Mirrored Images at best. 

When I do the same encounter solo against not-too hard melee-foes like tigers - which might represent the common "mob" - the Trickster variant kills them faster. But if the enemies have even more ACC/defenses and/or the fight takes too long he will run out of guile and then die faster. This might be a problem in the later game - for example in DLCs like SSS where fights can take quite a while. The Bloodmage can go on endlessly. 

Both are vulnerable to Arcane Dampener. They usually have very high Will (due to maxed RES and high INT) but grazes can still occur. 

The Trickster variant is more fun (in my opinion) if you want less micro. You only need to position the guy somewhere in from of melee enemies, cast Mirrored Images and Inspired Beacon and he'll be like a meat grinder from hell. The Bloodmage variant requires a lot more micromanagement and setup with buffs etc. and takes a longer to finish most fights - but in the end I think it has a lot more potential. 

[Boeroer]

7 hours ago, Rimiu said:

 I know fun is subjective but your builds were always fun to play for me. (Even been using PoE1 builds from you in the past!).

Also: thank you.

[n00biwan]

I've tried out a paladin/wizard & paladin priest and I have to say it is seriously broken! Paladin/anything is great for the extra defences, plus power level wise, fire based spells can be boosted by 3 power levels using magrans favor and the otto cat pet, plus we even get a ring with +10 fire spell accuracy from the dark cupboard that stacks with all the other acc bonuses. This combo melts away any trash mobs with fire aoes, and for the mega bosses, you also have the option of cheesing it with sot/brilliant/bdd and blade cascade for priest, and draining wall/blade cascade for wizards as long as you summon a flame blight with magrans belt. 

[thelee]

adding on to an earlier post by phyriel:

On 5/10/2020 at 6:20 AM, Phyriel said:

It's hard to define op in this game - you want a build that CAN do ultimate or rather a build that is explosive OP but needs support? or is immortal but feels like wet noodle when it comes to damage and overall "feel" 

 

reading this discussion, i wonder if a better thing when talking about single-class or multi-class to look for is simply "unbalanced" holistically. a lot of the stuff that people are bringing up as OP don't strike me as OP per se, but more just combos and stacking which feels different to me (just lots of metagaming).

because given a more general "unbalanced" take i would argue that trickster or trickster/x strikes me as a strong candidate for being an unbalanced subclass. it always struck me as extremely weirdly under-used through much of deadfire history - even before it got significantly buffed the downside was extremely minor (was starting +10% sneak attack damage, now +20% sneak attack damage) because it gets trivialized by PL scaling and deathblows, and you get a crap ton of extra utility and survivability. you barely need to metagame at all to get extremely strong outcomes from rolling a trickster, and with a bit of metagaming you can get extremely powerful multiclasses, even if you don't quite get to degenerate-combo level of powers that others have mentioned (or have been used in ultimate runs).

[n00biwan]

4 hours ago, thelee said:

degenerate-combo level of powers that others have mentioned (or have been used in ultimate runs).

Thats the perfect word for it, "degenerate" , the absurd things we do in this game to overcome some of the absurd challenges is truly madness

[Rimiu]

For me personally the only "OP" or "Broken" things are infinity combos or where you can't die anymore.

They are also not very fun for me.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Rimiu

[2MuchWatching]

Abilities that apply effect "until combat ends" get my goat. Fwiw I would say monks are very well-rounded class but not OP.

[Raven Darkholme]

Tactician/Bloodmage is the most fun of the op classes for me personally, but in the ultimate it is annoying to keep Vela alive with it (possible but annoying).

The cool thing about Tac/BM is, it's as immortal as a priest multi but doesn't require any crazy preparations before a fight to get brilliant or whatever.

You go in pop Unbending and Wall of draining, the heal gets prolonged by the wall which doesn't only apply to the duration of the buff, but every single heal tick getting triggered by dmg and those stack with each other, so eventually you heal thousands of dmg per second.

90% of the fights will be very easy and also since you are a mage you can be very creative about what you do.

You don't even need brilliant, cuz usually by the point you run out of abilities your regen is so sky high you can just spam blood sacrifice.

If against some bosses regen is not enough like giant spooder megaboss, you can also prolong potions of the final stand with walls and can't die if you get injured more than once.

Fights like fire drake are a joke it will never summon a single summon, your knockup gives you brilliant and will interrupt it.

Getting brilliant with chill fog or summons is easy most of the times if you really feel like you need it.

There is a handful of exceptions where fights will need preparations or pre planning a strategy.

Most notable one is Dorudugan where it can be hard to get the wall to hit.

Just consumables will make this a lot easier especially miss to graze conversion, also positioning can help, him walking on the wall gives rapid ticks and pushing him away can help too.

On the bright side getting brilliant is very easy vs him with summons and it just isn't a very hard fight overall.

Dispels from enemy casters are another issue but can be easily ducked with brilliant departure.

 

Ofc this class is a lot less fun if not soloing.

[Boeroer]

Doesn't Brilliant Departure also trigger Brilliant Tactician? Like Shadowing Beyond (with a Tactician/Rogue) does?

[Raven Darkholme]

If you can't flee from combat, yes.

(Otherwise it will trigger and immediately end combat)

Edited May 16, 2020 by Raven Darkholme

[n00biwan]

4 hours ago, Raven Darkholme said:

Tactician/Bloodmage is the most fun of the op classes for me personally, but in the ultimate it is annoying to keep Vela alive with it (possible but annoying).

 

I did try to copy your tactician/bloodmage for some trials of the ultimate, but for the dangerous fights like various sss encounters and the forgotten sanctum maura fight it was so hard, if nemnoks cloak worked for vela also this would be a really really fun build!

Edited May 16, 2020 by n00biwan
mis quote