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13 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Okay, I'm set on the idea to change Brilliant to +5 INT, +3PL and gives Ancestor's Memory +3 ressources on cast in addition to Brilliant (+3 ressources with random Tiers for casters, as for Bloodmage)

sorry if i skipped over this in the replies, but why +3 ?

i'm not altogether convinced that there needs to be any resource regen from ancestor's memory. +3 PL is nice on its own, and meshes particularly well with casters, monks, anyone with monastic unarmed training, and to a lesser extent rogues and barbarians.

if there is a resource to be regenned, maybe just +1 from the initial cast, or a random level 1-3 spell ?

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- Tactician Dilemna is weird. Shaken can be avoided by simply taking Fearless Feat. Confusion is avoidable too, or alternatively Flanked can be avoided completely. I am considering removing it completely : since I consider adding new feature, simplifying unecessary rules is an option.

Svef and a few foods also basically eliminate tactician's dilemma downside. I personally do not feel that this is a big deal, because a drawback that requires metagaming to mitigate is still a cost (whether a perk point or specific item usage).

 

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- I am considering adding a +20% recovery to the class. This is a noticeably penalty, but it would be counterbalanced by the +3 PL from Brilliant and ressource regeneration. Act less, but with improbed abilities/more abilities. I think this one would make sense.

- Discipline on Interrupt could add ressource for both classes. But as Thelee pointed previously, it has gruesome interraction with things like Slicken. Maybe this combo should be limited too. I'm considering limiting it to Weapon Interrupt, but this would incitate a bit too much to go for Xbows/Arbs or certain magical weapons.

- Ressource on Interrupt might not be enough to keep the old vibe of Infinite ressources (especially vs Dorudugan. I know it is 1 encounter, but I don't like to make tactician nearly useless vs this one). I'm wondering if a ressource regen on certain event could be added. But it shall not be too frequent. 1 ressources /6s was way too strong. I'm aiming Something like 1 ressource / 30s. I can't make new icons for new active abilities though. 
If a ressource regeneration for all classes is added, I think it would be better to go for random Tiers for casters, as for Bloodmage. Problem is that the only possible implementation of cancels invisibility (for technical reasons).

Do you have any ideas about it ?

Is there a way to have a cooldown on the resource regen? Like, interrupt restores one discipline, but once every 12 seconds or so an interrupt also restores a class resource. Or, interrupt restores one of each class resource unconditionally, but can only occur once every twelve seconds. It would still sort of keep the "feel" of the tactician without it necessarily being degenerate with things like Slicken or Clear Out. Might be too complicated a mechanic. Just spitballing.

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8 hours ago, thelee said:

sorry if i skipped over this in the replies, but why +3 ?

Complicated to explain because I'm a bit swimming in the technical possibilities of the Gamedata file.

#1 Basically, in order to implement Bloodmage randomness I have to use a mechanic that cancel invisibility on the caster.
#2 I also want to keep ressource regen on ancestor's memory, so I had to code an instant effect instead of per ticks.
#3 Brilliant is no instant so I had to decorrelate it from ressource regen. Because of #1, it would also avoird weird effects on Brilliant from items.
#4 If Brilliant on its own does not provide ressource regen, it needs something else.

As you see, I'm facing intricated issues. And causes and consequences end up in a package that may not make sense as a whole. I may also don't care about the invisibility issue from #1. 

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i'm not altogether convinced that there needs to be any resource regen from ancestor's memory. +3 PL is nice on its own, and meshes particularly well with casters, monks, anyone with monastic unarmed training, and to a lesser extent rogues and barbarians.

if there is a resource to be regenned, maybe just +1 from the initial cast, or a random level 1-3 spell ?

But I really want to keep ressource regen from Ancestor's Memory. It's too much liked and isn't much more OP than some other strong spells.

+1 ressource per 6s or +3 instant ressources (with Bloodmage randomness) are my targets.

I don't care about Brilliant itself though. 
But maybe the +3PL idea was a bit out of the place on top of it.
 

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Svef and a few foods also basically eliminate tactician's dilemma downside. I personally do not feel that this is a big deal, because a drawback that requires metagaming to mitigate is still a cost (whether a perk point or specific item usage).

I don't think it's a problem either. The only reason I'm considering removing it is because I may end up with 5-6 different effects from the subclass, which might be too much. And since this one has few consequences...

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Is there a way to have a cooldown on the resource regen? Like, interrupt restores one discipline, but once every 12 seconds or so an interrupt also restores a class resource. Or, interrupt restores one of each class resource unconditionally, but can only occur once every twelve seconds. It would still sort of keep the "feel" of the tactician without it necessarily being degenerate with things like Slicken or Clear Out. Might be too complicated a mechanic. Just spitballing.

There are ways to have cooldowns. But maybe not easy to implement on interrupt part.

Honnestly, the more I work on it, the more I think that Tactician is a degenerate OP subclasses. As you mention, Brilliant part is so OP that most players don't even think the Discipline on Interupt is OP too. And penalties are not that hard to avoid (especially with a party). It's very complicated to tweak out of OPness while still keeping the feeling (not to mention the technical possibilities and risk of bugs with increased complexity).
I start to feel I have to partially butcher the subclass. I don't like that, and users may not like it either.

Using a global recovery penalty + limited regeneration (capped by cooldown ??) would make sense as a gameplay package. Act slower but with backup infinite ressources. That's what I aim. Now I want to do that with as few changes as possible, and that's hard to do.

Edited by Elric Galad
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As i mentioned, i would like to create a more dmg oriented magic char. Tip was Priest. Berath / Magran (thx Elric Galan)

Unfortunately i have to find out, after my hdd crash last year, i lost my PoE 1 savegames for the import! 😡

But i thought to myself: replay the whole thing. 🙂  

So is Priest (Single Class?) a viable option, to play through PoE 1 and 2? Without to much micromanagement? Good or very good in Dmg? In terms of Story?

And good to "translate" from PoE 1 to PoE 2?

 

Many questions...^^

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3 minutes ago, Venatoris78 said:

As i mentioned, i would like to create a more dmg oriented magic char. Tip was Priest. Berath / Magran (thx Elric Galan)

Unfortunately i have to find out, after my hdd crash last year, i lost my PoE 1 savegames for the import! 😡

But i thought to myself: replay the whole thing. 🙂  

So is Priest (Single Class?) a viable option, to play through PoE 1 and 2? Without to much micromanagement? Good or very good in Dmg? In terms of Story?

And good to "translate" from PoE 1 to PoE 2?

 

Many questions...^^

Priest is arguably the strongest class in PoE1. Only issue is that its support spells are so strong that you ususally don't even have time to deal damages.
If you want to enjoy priest main character in PoE1, bring another Priest in your party.
It's a spell caster though, so you'll have to micromanage spell casting.

For PoE2, I've already told you what you want to do.

Just be advised that Priest aren't top tier at low level. In both games, they become beasty with levels.

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4 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

If you want to enjoy priest main character in PoE1, bring another Priest in your party.

Hard disagree. Due to how Holy Radiance scales in PoE1 (or doesn't scale, for that matter), a mainchar priest is worlds better than an NPC priest. You can literally 100+ damage to vessels and massive amounts of healing (with extra feats to make it even more extreme) on a mainchar, whereas it'll always be sorta medicore on Durance or anyone you recruit.

 

from my poe1 guide:

Spoiler

In your party reputations, add up the total value of all favored dispositions
(each capped at 3) and then subtract the total value of all disfavored
dispositions (each also capped at 3).  Call the result your "disposition score."
Holy Radiance gains bonuses per disposition score...
    to healing:  +3 base, +1 per every 3 levels after 1 (level 4, 7, etc.)
    to vessels:  +5 base, +2.2 per every 3 levels after 1 (level 4, 7, etc.)
Notably, the healing bonuses are not affected by might.  However, the vessel
damage bonus _is_ affected by both might and intellect (since a longer duration
increases the total damage).

As a concrete example, say you follow Wael.  Favored dispositions are deceptive
and clever.  Disfavored are honest and rational.  Let's say your party
reputations are:
    Clever 4
    Deceptive 3
    Honest 1
    Rational 1
Your disposition score is (3 + 3) - (1 + 1) = 4.  Let's say you're
level 5 and have 20 intellect.  Holy Radiance heals:
    15 + 5 (base effect, +5 for level 4)
     + (3 + 1 [base bonus, +1 for level 4]) * 4 (disposition score)
     = 35 total
Against vessels, Holy Radiance burns for:
    30 + 5 (base effect, plus +5 for level 4)
     + (5 + 2.2 [base bonus, +1 for level 4]) * 4 (disposition score)
     = 63.8 at base duration 3s
     * 1.5 (intellect increases duration by 50%)
     = 95.7 total
Again, if your character had a might other than 10, only the base healing effect
would get influenced by might, not the bonus.

As you can see, a maxed out favorable disposition can contribute a significant
share of Holy Radiance's healing and vessel damage.  So it pays to stay in
character.  In fact, for a suitably in-character main character priest, the Holy
Radiance healing and vessel damage becomes _significant_, whereas e.g. Durance's
Holy Radiance remains fairly marginal.

You could potentially pick up the Untroubled Faith talent if you're having
trouble staying away from disfavored dispositions, but it's more effective to
just pay attention to what you're doing.

Again, remember that this only applies to your _main character_.  Priests who
are not your main character will stay with the default Holy Radiance effect.

 

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Yes, priest is also one of the if not the strongest solo class in Poe1, because of how absurdly you can buff their stats (if it wasn't for brilliant sot combo you could say poe2 ruined priest with inspirations compared to how buffs worked in poe 1)

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1 hour ago, thelee said:

Hard disagree. Due to how Holy Radiance scales in PoE1 (or doesn't scale, for that matter), a mainchar priest is worlds better than an NPC priest. You can literally 100+ damage to vessels and massive amounts of healing (with extra feats to make it even more extreme) on a mainchar, whereas it'll always be sorta medicore on Durance or anyone you recruit.

 

from my poe1 guide:

  Reveal hidden contents

In your party reputations, add up the total value of all favored dispositions
(each capped at 3) and then subtract the total value of all disfavored
dispositions (each also capped at 3).  Call the result your "disposition score."
Holy Radiance gains bonuses per disposition score...
    to healing:  +3 base, +1 per every 3 levels after 1 (level 4, 7, etc.)
    to vessels:  +5 base, +2.2 per every 3 levels after 1 (level 4, 7, etc.)
Notably, the healing bonuses are not affected by might.  However, the vessel
damage bonus _is_ affected by both might and intellect (since a longer duration
increases the total damage).

As a concrete example, say you follow Wael.  Favored dispositions are deceptive
and clever.  Disfavored are honest and rational.  Let's say your party
reputations are:
    Clever 4
    Deceptive 3
    Honest 1
    Rational 1
Your disposition score is (3 + 3) - (1 + 1) = 4.  Let's say you're
level 5 and have 20 intellect.  Holy Radiance heals:
    15 + 5 (base effect, +5 for level 4)
     + (3 + 1 [base bonus, +1 for level 4]) * 4 (disposition score)
     = 35 total
Against vessels, Holy Radiance burns for:
    30 + 5 (base effect, plus +5 for level 4)
     + (5 + 2.2 [base bonus, +1 for level 4]) * 4 (disposition score)
     = 63.8 at base duration 3s
     * 1.5 (intellect increases duration by 50%)
     = 95.7 total
Again, if your character had a might other than 10, only the base healing effect
would get influenced by might, not the bonus.

As you can see, a maxed out favorable disposition can contribute a significant
share of Holy Radiance's healing and vessel damage.  So it pays to stay in
character.  In fact, for a suitably in-character main character priest, the Holy
Radiance healing and vessel damage becomes _significant_, whereas e.g. Durance's
Holy Radiance remains fairly marginal.

You could potentially pick up the Untroubled Faith talent if you're having
trouble staying away from disfavored dispositions, but it's more effective to
just pay attention to what you're doing.

Again, remember that this only applies to your _main character_.  Priests who
are not your main character will stay with the default Holy Radiance effect.

 

I didn't say he should use NPC Priest. I said he should have 2 Priests to really be able to use his MC offensively.

Edited by Elric Galad
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In PoE, with several priest in the party: always make sure all of them take Inspiring Radiance - because it stacks. 6 Priests = +60 ACC from Inspired Radiance. :headbang:

Edited by Boeroer

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48 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

In PoE, with several priest in the party: always make sure all of them take Inspiring Radiance - because it stacks. 6 Priests = +60 ACC from Inspired Radiance. :headbang:

Always funny when people Say Wizard was best class 😉

(But solid second one)

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I can't really think of a single bad class in Poe1.

Fighters and rogues are arguably worse than other classes, but they have dw perma cc shenanigans going for them which are just very strong.

Chanters, Priest and Wizards can be a matter of opinion what's better, personally I think Priests and wizards are just slightly more versatile than Chanters but there is also not much you can do wrong with chanters, while with the casters you might mess up your spell management or smth (not really)

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You also have to distinguish between early, mid and late game. Saying "XY is best" when only looking at the late game isn't really a wholesome assessment (I still thing Priest is best because there's so much impact for a party even at low levels - see Inspiring Radiance but also mid game stuff like Devotions, Prayers and so on).

Per-rest casters in PoE feel a lot weaker in the early game - because they have so few spell uses per rest compared to the endgame (where they have an overbundance of spells). A lvl-1 per-rest caster can cast two spells (especially if you took pretty lame spells as a Wizard to begin with) and then it's auto-attacking with suboptimal stats. Of course that feels weak - hence the claims of "uselessness". 

Fighters and Rogues (and Monks as well) feel stronger in the early game of PoE because they start with higher stats (for example compare the starting ACC of Fighter: 30 with the starting ACC of a Priest or Wizard: 20) and are somewaht "frontloaded" with nice abilities like Sneak Attack, Constant Recovery and such. Hence so many new players sworde that Rogue is the strongest class at first.

Same reason why so many players thought that Barbarians were bad: they just didn't play them long enough. Barbs started with low ACC and deflection - of course they felt weak in the early game. Especially because Carnage couldn't hit anything with the low starting ACC and the -10 malus on top. And the 36% damage malus felt really bad in the absence of other dmg bonuses. It's written nowhere in the game that Carnage gets +1 ACC per char level. You had to find out yourself which was only possible if you didn't give up on the Barb (or read the forums ;)). In the end you could have a really great Barbarian - but you wouldn't have guessed from the first impressions. 

Edited by Boeroer
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OK, so I've come up with a Solution for tactician that I feel satisfying (but not tried implementing, so I guess I might still face surprise).

First I don't plan to change Brilliant anymore.
The only thing I will change is implementing random spell tier regeneration, as Blood Mage gets.
This would cause Brilliant to dispell invisibility on initial caster which isn't ideal, but more than changing the rules too much or regenerating Maeltstorm every 6s. There's other pulsating spells that cancel invisibility anyway.


My plans are :

- Brilliant Tactician : Replace Brilliant by Acute and an effect that provides 1 Ressource (for both class) on 10% Graze/Hit/Crit from weapons. Ability should be renamed "Clever Tactician". This should provide much less ressource back than Brilliant, but should still work during long fights. If tactician is used as a tank, it will still provide significant benefit, provided you can get the condition for "Clever Tactician" (which aren't that hard to get, as pointed).
The 10% Graze/Hit/Crit from weapons is not 100% set in my mind, but I need a trigger that does not conflict with invisibility.

- Tactician Dilemna :
Change the conditions to Flanked OR Afflicted.
Change the effect to +50% Recovery.
This is a Huge penalty but given the benefit you can get from the class (and Fighter's ability to mitigate it through passive), I would say that it is suitable.

 

The idea is to let the subclass be what it is meant to be : a subclass with huge advantages that you have to work a bit to get, which usually revolve around getting more ressources.
However, I wanted to nerf the following aspects :
- Ressources every 6s from Brilliant was just too much.
- The subclass needed a significant drawback for those incredible goodies it gets (Acute + Discipline on Interrupt + Ressource back from Attacks is an incredible set of abilities).

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On 5/27/2020 at 2:03 PM, Elric Galad said:

10% Graze/Hit/Crit from weapons

i'm not wild about it but understand there are probably difficulties and limitations with modding. it seems like ideally it'd be something related to the interrupt ability that a tactician has, just so it's one less thing to remember.

 

On 5/27/2020 at 2:03 PM, Elric Galad said:

Change the conditions to Flanked OR Afflicted.
Change the effect to +50% Recovery.

"or afflicted" might be a bit too chaotic. I'm thinking about persistent distraction enemies. I'm also thinking about random incidental afflictions. What was "neat" about tactician was that flanked status was one you could largely manage (except for perception afflictions and very very occasionally an enemy cipher with phantom foes), which really lent itself to the "tactician" aspect of a tactician. Including all afflictions seems like it dilutes that and makes it more like a random debuff that is outside your control.

there might also be a mechanical issue, because ISTR that recovery penalties from things like blind are applied immediately, but recovery bonuses from blind wearing off or streetfighter kicking in don't occur until the next recovery. i'm worried that in a typical mid-to-late game fight where afflictions might be flying around, even the best dispelling/avoidance stuff will still be murked up with persistent +50% recovery penalty even if you nominally have nothing on you.

my own suggestion would just be "flanked => +50% recovery". it seems punishing enough, and flanked status is a bit less murky and more controllable that the lag time in avoiding a recovery penalty might be less bad. If you haven't tried it out, though, it seems like something worth testing, because there might also be potential extremely bad outcomes of interrupting a persistent distraction enemy - the moment you get flanked you'd get +50% recovery penalty, and i'm not sure what would happen if you interrupted the enemy (which causes them to drop persistent distraction on you temporarily) - your recovery would likely not be restored in that interim, and i don't know what would happen once the flanked status is re-applied.

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1 hour ago, thelee said:

i'm not wild about it but understand there are probably difficulties and limitations with modding. it seems like ideally it'd be something related to the interrupt ability that a tactician has, just so it's one less thing to remember.

Yup, I wasn't convinced myself either. Now I think I'm going to try implementing a 15% chance +1 ressource every 3s. It's closer to the current effect but much less strong
I'm going to try adding a filter so it deosn't work under invisibility (so it doesn't cancel it). This should be silent enough, even if not 100% clean.
The % chance is better than longer ticks because even with 30s tick you'll get instant +1 ressource each time you cancel+reapply the effect

1 hour ago, thelee said:

"or afflicted" might be a bit too chaotic. I'm thinking about persistent distraction enemies. I'm also thinking about random incidental afflictions. What was "neat" about tactician was that flanked status was one you could largely manage (except for perception afflictions and very very occasionally an enemy cipher with phantom foes), which really lent itself to the "tactician" aspect of a tactician. Including all afflictions seems like it dilutes that and makes it more like a random debuff that is outside your control.

there might also be a mechanical issue, because ISTR that recovery penalties from things like blind are applied immediately, but recovery bonuses from blind wearing off or streetfighter kicking in don't occur until the next recovery. i'm worried that in a typical mid-to-late game fight where afflictions might be flying around, even the best dispelling/avoidance stuff will still be murked up with persistent +50% recovery penalty even if you nominally have nothing on you.

my own suggestion would just be "flanked => +50% recovery". it seems punishing enough, and flanked status is a bit less murky and more controllable that the lag time in avoiding a recovery penalty might be less bad. If you haven't tried it out, though, it seems like something worth testing, because there might also be potential extremely bad outcomes of interrupting a persistent distraction enemy - the moment you get flanked you'd get +50% recovery penalty, and i'm not sure what would happen if you interrupted the enemy (which causes them to drop persistent distraction on you temporarily) - your recovery would likely not be restored in that interim, and i don't know what would happen once the flanked status is re-applied.

The thing is I want to give Tactician a real drawback that you can't run easily away from with Squid's Grasp (ad this would basically make some equipment too obvious choices).
Tactician has exceptional advantages so I think it deserves at least a hard penalty.

I'm not set on "Afflicted" though. I think you're right when you say it is too chaotic.

What would you think about "Flanked, or Hurt or Below" ? "When things go wrong, Tactician starts acting overcautiously".
This one is still very hard to avoid, but I feel it is less chaotic than eating a random affliction.
You can avoid it with proper control of combat, and it rewards Constitution a bit which is a good thing I think.
"Flanked, or Bloodied or Below" would feel a bit too easy to avoid too.

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1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

What would you think about "Flanked, or Hurt or Below" ? "When things go wrong, Tactician starts acting overcautiously".

lol i just had a zany thought about making it symmetric with a streetfighter. if flanked, or bloodied/below you get +50% recovery. if both, you also get some major other malus. just a silly idea that i liked from a flavor perspective (a streetfighter is reckless and wants to be flanked and/or hurt, but a tactician is super cautious and really hates both).

 

i think you're right that hurt or below is better than bloodied or below. i think it also has the side effect of making the fighter regeneration more important for early parts of the fight. 

i would still think it's a good idea to double-check what happens to recovery upon repeated re-application of flanked. my concern is that you'd get an instant shot of extra recovery, with bad outcomes.

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On 5/29/2020 at 10:11 PM, thelee said:

lol i just had a zany thought about making it symmetric with a streetfighter. if flanked, or bloodied/below you get +50% recovery. if both, you also get some major other malus. just a silly idea that i liked from a flavor perspective (a streetfighter is reckless and wants to be flanked and/or hurt, but a tactician is super cautious and really hates both).

 

i think you're right that hurt or below is better than bloodied or below. i think it also has the side effect of making the fighter regeneration more important for early parts of the fight. 

i would still think it's a good idea to double-check what happens to recovery upon repeated re-application of flanked. my concern is that you'd get an instant shot of extra recovery, with bad outcomes.

Ouch, my attempt of implementing the principles I had in mind has resulted in a total failure this week-end. Might be due to my own errors, or simply that the code behind the gamedata files isn't robust enough. I'm probably going to take a break about modding until my holidays, second half of June. I'm a bit pissed off now 🙂 

I might consider using a more radical approach (also more simple, and with less side-effects) : simply make Brilliant never regenerated spells above Tier III.
This would make it a bit less good for casters (but still enough IMHO), but Chanter Tier IX "His Heart did Fill..." would then have a more distinctive purpose.
I'll keep anyway the idea above for Tactician Dilemma, which is similar enough to Streetfighter to be guaranteed to work... eventually 🙂

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50 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I might consider using a more radical approach (also more simple, and with less side-effects) : simply make Brilliant never regenerated spells above Tier III.

That's actually a pretty ingeniusly simple solution. It gets rid of the most egregious combos and roughly balances martial and caster effects from brilliant. There are still a few disproportionately powerful spells to come back so easily but at this point it's probably a problem more with those spells. It's not perfect, but I think the simplicity is nice because it's easier to reason about and less brainspace to devote to the mechanics of it. Honestly if OBS had done that with brilliant, I'd be mostly happy with it as an inspiration.

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I agree. By now we should be cautious with "it's simple" ;) - but this seams to be the most simple (yet practicable) solution without making Brilliant too boring (like +3 PL might be). 

I also get some "PoE Spell Mastery" vibes. Which is nice.

Edited by Boeroer
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44 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I agree. By now we should be cautious with "it's simple" ;) - but this seams to be the most simple (yet practicable) solution without making Brilliant too boring (like +3 PL might be). 

I also get some "PoE Spell Mastery" vibes. Which is nice.

3-1 

It was actually simple. It's already coded and working.

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13 hours ago, dunehunter said:

Why not set up a rule to not let SoT extend any inspiration? Same as WoD.

People would still just default to bm, since you dont really need brilliant at all. Since wod still extends bdd and you can spam blood sacrafice regardless, as far as the harder fights go, everything can be done just by summoning a single flame blight and dragging it across the wall to extend whatever buff you want including blade cascade

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1 hour ago, n00biwan said:

People would still just default to bm, since you dont really need brilliant at all. Since wod still extends bdd and you can spam blood sacrafice regardless, as far as the harder fights go, everything can be done just by summoning a single flame blight and dragging it across the wall to extend whatever buff you want including blade cascade

Well damn make sot and wod stop extending bdd and cascade as well then :)

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