Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0

[Elric Galad]

8 hours ago, n00biwan said:

I liked almost all the changes, it did not make solo play more or less enjoyable, or easier/harder for that matter. I just found myself using abilities that i never would have otherwise, it brings a fresh experience, however the mega boss portions really deserve to be looked at, for example your idea of adding fire blight spawns for doru is a neat idea!

Yes, maybe. I will probably need more feedbacks from other players before starting to tweak encounters.

In particular, I would like to know if the main issue is with Dorudugan or if other megabosses are a problem too.
Auranic feels OK to me, Belranga seems manageable and even Hauani O Whe is more about preventing the merges than pure stats cumberstop. All of them require sustainability, but not that much more than Survival Aspect fights.

[Elric Galad]

Another idea :

I have always been dubious about the fact that Constant Recovery has a limited duration, especially because you can't choose the moment you activate it.

In PoE1, Constant Recovery used to be Infinite, then they decided to limit Infinite healing (which wasn't technically possible because of the health system) so they added a duration.

Then PoE2 and Herald happened and Constant Recovery was left in the dust. How the Signature Ability of the Physical Tank Class could be toped by what Support Classes add to the whole freaking party ?
Nowadays, even Bloodmage has Infinite self heal, but Fighter, nay.

My idea is to bring back Infinite healing for Constant Recovery, add the 5% PL scaling and tune down a bit the values.
It could be seen as powercreeping but given the number of Fighters that the game throw at you, I guess it would help ennemies too.

So my proposal :
- Constant Recovery 4 HP / 3s
- Rapid Recovery 4+2 HP / 3s 
- Black Jacket Constant Recovery 2 HP / 3s
- Black Jacket Rapid Recovery 2+1 HP / 3s
- All Infinite Duration
- 5% more per PL beyond 0.

[thelee]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

In PoE1, Constant Recovery used to be Infinite, then they decided to limit Infinite healing (which wasn't technically possible because of the health system) so they added a duration.

parenthetical side note - one of the deranged outcomes of health/endurance system is that i hated infinite constant recovery. in some fights i would be deliberately trying to knock out eder so that he wouldn't be in permadeath risk by having too low health compared to endurance.

 

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Then PoE2 and Herald happened and Constant Recovery was left in the dust. How the Signature Ability of the Physical Tank Class could be toped by what Support Classes add to the whole freaking party ?
Nowadays, even Bloodmage has Infinite self heal, but Fighter, nay.

i would argue that this is more a case to be made that bloodmage should have capped self-heal, but in practice i think the drip is so low that in most fights the fighter will do better. i don't know about ancestor's memory + exalted endurance though, that's rough from a balancing perspective.

 

one advantage of durational effects is that they can itneract with suppression, cleansing, meppu, ooblit, intellect, etc. i find that more interesting, mechanically. maybe if you want to tune up constant recovery, you just increase the base duration? even ancestor's memory can be stymied by an arcane suppression (which will block refreshing chants). i think the real problem may be the infinite versions of those effects (including but not limited to the regenerating belts). just my thoughts

Edited July 14, 2020 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

8 hours ago, thelee said:

parenthetical side note - one of the deranged outcomes of health/endurance system is that i hated infinite constant recovery. in some fights i would be deliberately trying to knock out eder so that he wouldn't be in permadeath risk by having too low health compared to endurance.

Yeah, I had a Moon Godlike Rogue once, and it was even worse than what you described given the low HP pool + massive burst of self-heal.

Quote

one advantage of durational effects is that they can itneract with suppression, cleansing, meppu, ooblit, intellect, etc. i find that more interesting, mechanically. maybe if you want to tune up constant recovery, you just increase the base duration? even ancestor's memory can be stymied by an arcane suppression (which will block refreshing chants). i think the real problem may be the infinite versions of those effects (including but not limited to the regenerating belts). just my thoughts

I get the point about interaction. My current Jacket aims at getting the Broom so he can clean the annoying Recovery of ennemy fighter.

However, I think that Fighters already have many self-buffs that can be interacted with. Refreshing defense can be cleansed, Unbending can be suppressed, not to mention the offensive self-buffs. You already need some kind of dispell to get rid of fighters, and it is not really because of constant recovery. That's why I think that having a reliable defensive ability that doesn't get dispell could be nice.

Also I'm really annoyed by the fact that you can't choose the moment you trigger Constant Recovery, especially when facing thoose arcane dampening wizards... This is a really weird design for me.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

I would be in for unlimited duration. However I would maybe keep the base but slow down the tick rate (from every 3 sec to ev. 6 sec for example). Makes it line up with regeneration rings etc. and doesn't require so much meticulous timing when having to deal with overleveled enemy fighters I guess?

By the way the Chanter phrase's name is Ancient Memory. Ancestor's Memory is the Cipher spell. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I would be in for unlimited duration. However I would maybe keep the base but slow down the tick rate (from every 3 sec to ev. 6 sec for example). Makes it line up with regeneration rings etc. and doesn't require so much meticulous timing when having to deal with overleveled enemy fighters I guess?

OK, so same values as before, tick slowed to 6s, infinite duration.
And I will still add 5% scaling per PL.

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

By the way the Chanter phrase's name is Ancient Memory. Ancestor's Memory is the Cipher spell. 

Sure, Memory trouble, I suppose.

[Boeroer]

Comes with the age.

[thelee]

7 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I would be in for unlimited duration. However I would maybe keep the base but slow down the tick rate (from every 3 sec to ev. 6 sec for example). Makes it line up with regeneration rings etc. and doesn't require so much meticulous timing when having to deal with overleveled enemy fighters I guess?

By the way the Chanter phrase's name is Ancient Memory. Ancestor's Memory is the Cipher spell. 

@Elric Galad do you think it makes sense to also take a crack at ancient memory (whoops) and align the tick rate as well? it's a bit strange that regen effects are everywhere in how they implement the regeneration rate. it's not like it's even a rounding issue, since AFAICT all hots and dots do one final "tick" at expiration to take care of any rounding issues of having a non-whole number of ticks.

Edited July 15, 2020 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, thelee said:

@Elric Galad do you think it makes sense to also take a crack at ancient memory (whoops) and align the tick rate as well? it's a bit strange that regen effects are everywhere in how they implement the regeneration rate. it's not like it's even a rounding issue, since AFAICT all hots and dots do one final "tick" at expiration to take care of any rounding issues of having a non-whole number of ticks.

I was thinking about it too. It would make scaling and MIG bonus clearer. Zealous endurance has 3s ticks by the way.

[Boeroer]

Zealous Endurance only gives 1 AR. I guess you mean Exalted Endurance? 

 

*BAM* - Name Nazi strikes again!

Edit: or maybe the Terminology Terror? The Misnomer Mallet? The Error Erazer? The pedantic douche...?

Edited July 15, 2020 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Zealous Endurance only gives 1 AR. I guess you mean Exalted Endurance? 

 

*BAM* - Name Nazi strikes again!

Edit: or maybe the Terminology Terror? The Misnomer Mallet? The Error Erazer? The pedantic douche...?

Or the "Boring Rectifier"

I haven't been paranoid enough with my checking recently .

5 hours ago, thelee said:

@Elric Galad do you think it makes sense to also take a crack at ancient memory (whoops) and align the tick rate as well? it's a bit strange that regen effects are everywhere in how they implement the regeneration rate. it's not like it's even a rounding issue, since AFAICT all hots and dots do one final "tick" at expiration to take care of any rounding issues of having a non-whole number of ticks.

I changed my mind, because we have neglected something : the initial tick !
For passive effect it doesn't matter but for Ancestor Memory, making it 6hp/6s will basically make the initial tick give +5hp than now.
+5hp per phrase is huge, especially with Brisk recitation.

For sure, hp per tick can be tuned down to compensate, but I think it's too much tweaking for a minor concern.


Also I start to think that adding PL scaling for passive/modal/phrase Healing is a bit unecessary. Exalted Endurance and Ancient Memory are good enough as they are, constant recovery is going to be tweaked anyway and other Healing effect are self-rez more than healing (providence and unbreakable). Only one that seems necessary is Soft Wind, but more because it is a drain than a Healing effect.

I had more concern for damage abilities, mostly because of PEN, but adding damages and acc scaling still feels appropriate.

[dunehunter]

@Elric Galad Also might consider tweak Fighter's Unbreakable and Paladin's Providence so they don't give injury when revived so we can have some fun build that trigger effects on unconscious?

[Boeroer]

Are those limited per encounter? Because if not you'll be unkillable.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

16 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Are those liked per encounter? Because if not you'll be unkillable.

I don't get it, unbreakable is once per encounter so what do u mean unkillable?

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, dunehunter said:

I don't get it, unbreakable is once per encounter so what do u mean unkillable?

Unbreakable is per encounter, Providence is not.

With a party of 5 SC paladin with also Divine Retribution, every knockout remove 3 zeals from the knocked one and give back 2 zeals to all others.
This sounds close enough from an immortality combo for me.
Currently, only injuries limit it (or at least it costs you many potions). So Providence not causing injuries is not possible for me.

Unbreakable is more questionnable. Not sure how balanced it is. Maybe limited to Tier IX upgrade ?

Also technically speaking I don't know any effect that cause a Knock out to not cause injuries.
There's the Survivor Tusk effect, but it removes all injuries. But it is more or less equivalent for a per encounter ability (especially since you an't unequip it).

[Boeroer]

6 hours ago, dunehunter said:

I don't get it, unbreakable is once per encounter so what do u mean unkillable?

I meant "limited", not "liked", sorry. My phone did a stupid autocorrect.

5 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

I don't know any effect that cause a Knock out to not cause injuries.

Ring of Reset. It's a charged item though (3 charges iirc). But if you have two (e.g. via character export) you can stack them in the stash and have unlimited charges per game and 3 per encounter (maybe even six if you can wear both and they recharge to 3 each after stacking them in the stash - not sure though). 

[Elric Galad]

On 7/16/2020 at 2:31 PM, Boeroer said:

Ring of Reset. It's a charged item though (3 charges iirc). But if you have two (e.g. via character export) you can stack them in the stash and have unlimited charges per game and 3 per encounter (maybe even six if you can wear both and they recharge to 3 each after stacking them in the stash - not sure though). 

No, it doesn't. It also removes all injuries.

So if Unbreakable / Unrelentless is added this effect, it will enable resetting all injuries once per encounter, including the ones from traps and previous encounters. 
I think it's safer not to add this effect, even to Unrelentless. 

Since I've already coded the change for Unrelentless before thinking about this, I'm still able to share the change, as a bonus one.
Beware it's not tested and description not upadated though.

cl.fighter.unrelentling.gamedatabundle

Edited July 18, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

16 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

No, it doesn't.

cl.fighter.unrelentling.gamedatabundle 6.08 kB · 0 downloads

What exactly doesn't it do? Recharge to 3 if you use both rings in one encounter?

[Elric Galad]

1 minute ago, Boeroer said:

What exactly doesn't it do? Recharge to 3 if you use both rings in one encounter?

To make it more clear, I was looking for an effect that didn't cause to remove all injuries, but only 1 for the current knock-out.
 

On 7/16/2020 at 9:16 AM, Elric Galad said:

Also technically speaking I don't know any effect that cause a Knock out to not cause injuries.
There's the Survivor Tusk effect, but it removes all injuries. But it is more or less equivalent for a per encounter ability (especially since you an't unequip it).

It might not have been very clear though.

My point is that there is no effect that only removes 1 injury.

[Bosmer]

Hey Elric! Thank you for working on this mod, I really enjoyed the changes you made, especially to paladin and cipher!

I might have encountered a bug with the new Soul Ignition. It seems that the DoT-duration is not affected by graze/hit/crit and the damage per tick decreases for critting. I'll try to add a screenshot later on!

[Elric Galad]

4 hours ago, Bosmer said:

Hey Elric! Thank you for working on this mod, I really enjoyed the changes you made, especially to paladin and cipher!

I might have encountered a bug with the new Soul Ignition. It seems that the DoT-duration is not affected by graze/hit/crit and the damage per tick decreases for critting. I'll try to add a screenshot later on!

OK, I'll test it in game, althought given the few changes I've made, I don't know what could explain this. 
Just to be sure, do you have other mods installed ? (except CP, since I tested my mod with it installed)

I've a couple of real life stuff to deal with, so it might take a few days before I answer sorry.

[Vaneglorious]

Hi. I'm just curious, what do others think of this community balance mod? I'm thinking about giving it a shot, because I hate the fact that there are so many subclasses and abilities in the game that are underwhelming to varying degrees, but having read into it, it seems to me that mostly everything got a buff, and some things got a pretty crazy buff in my opinion.

I'm just wondering if this causes too much of a power creep that would make my PotD super easy.

Thanks for the input in advance.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Vaneglorious

[Boeroer]

6 hours ago, Vaneglorious said:

I hate the fact that there are so many subclasses [...] in the game that are underwhelming to varying degrees, [...]

Since you say it's a fact: which of the subclasses are underwhelming and form a set the size of which could be described as "so many"?

I don't think there's too much power creep. There are also some nerfs, especially when it comes to stuff that otherwise is extremely powerful. Of course: if you focus on the buffed stuff and circumvent the nerfs anyways then it will be easier. But in general I think it will not be. Elric even is considering tuning down the Megabosses because they are a lot harder to beat with his mod. 

[Bosmer]

21 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

OK, I'll test it in game, althought given the few changes I've made, I don't know what could explain this. 
Just to be sure, do you have other mods installed ? (except CP, since I tested my mod with it installed)

I've a couple of real life stuff to deal with, so it might take a few days before I answer sorry.

Sorry! I just checked it again (misread the tooltip the last time): Crits increase the DoT duration (as expected) and critting has no effect on the damage per tick. I guess this is the way it's supposed to be, so everything works fine and I can stay with my build thanks again!

[Elric Galad]

5 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Since you say it's a fact: which of the subclasses are underwhelming and form a set the size of which could be described as "so many"?

For my mod, the buffed subclasses (that we discussed together some times before I started modding) were the following :
- Conjurer, Transmuter
- Corpse Eater, Mage Slayer
- Sharpshooter (this one was more meh that underpowered, but still)

Also I changed Paladin of the Five Suns and Wildmind as NPC-only subclasses.

Not to forget Psion and Arcane Archer (scaling PEN issue) that were buffed by Community Patch (so my mod did not have to cover them, but they count as "underwhelming" in the base game) and Shattered Pillar that Community Patch buffed too, but with a bug about lesser wound that I corrected.

That starts to sound like "many"

Quote

I don't think there's too much power creep. There are also some nerfs, especially when it comes to stuff that otherwise is extremely powerful. Of course: if you focus on the buffed stuff and circumvent the nerfs anyways then it will be easier. But in general I think it will not be. Elric even is considering tuning down the Megabosses because they are a lot harder to beat with his mod. 

I wouldn't have said better myself. The only comment I had about the difficulty with my mod installed was that it made (megabosses) fights harder.

There are much less nerfs than buffs but they are targetted where it "hurts". Most (or even all ?) of the combinations that completed The Ultimate would not have worked with my mod.

To add a side note, don't forget that NPC, especially Kiths, often use the same abilities as players. They are buffed too, even more since their builds are much more random than experienced players. So it makes their crappy abilities much more relevant. 
When an ennemy paladin skeleton uses Glorious beacon against my clumped party, I always think "oh, I'm so proud of you, my boi".
 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Elric Galad