Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0

[Shai Hulud]

18 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

You'll be happy finding Bull's Will available for SC Ciphers then (since MC Ciphers could get it from their other class tree and stack with Iron Will... didn't seem faire).

Excellent

18 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

 

Good point about TLK usual strategy. I'll leave this out of the equation.

OK, maybe I haven't explained super well.

Shadowed Hunters is a package with :
- a 30s max invisibility
- a 30s defensive buff
- a 60s intuitive that starts only after invisibility.

(I'm taking into account base duration to simplify, but using the real duration basically add a multiplicative factor to all durations).

 

Let's say you attack right after a few positionning seconds (not significant). 30s after cast, the defensive part run out, but intuitive is still up. If you want to re-cast SH, when do you do it ?

1) You wait until intuitive runs out. This means your defensive buff won't be up.
2) You re-cast SH, meaning you waste 30s of intuitive.
3) At some point between 1) and 2) 

Having more Bond, means re-casting SH several times in a single battle more likely. Hence making the SH dilemna more annoying (minor annoyance maybe).

It is basically the only buff in the game with these different durations. I made it this way because I wanted to give something strong for the price of 3 Bonds, so I rised Intuitive duration alone a bit artificially.

 

That's why I think having all durations harmonized would be a good thing. (I can keep the Intuitive after invisibility since it is slightly more interesting gameplay wise and adds some flexibility).

 

Now that TLK is out of the equation, I could consider :

- a 45s max invisibility
- a 45s defensive buff
- a 45s intuitive that starts only after invisibility (but is likely to end about the same time as defensive part in most cases).

It would feel more or less neutral in term of balance, with still a quite long Intuitive.

I could increase healing to 12 hp per 3s tick to round things up. This would be a Robust equivalent you'll get on your road to Intuitive (granted that Bonded Fury provides the Hardy part).

Still don't see what you really "lose" it is just a strategic choice whether you want healing then or more intuitive.  But your proposal adds up to 90s also so I guess that's fine either way.

18 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

I have implemented up to +30% as reviewed by Bosmer. It seems fair.

I would still consider +20 all defense better in raw power, but :

- the damages bonus synergizes better with the acc bonus for DPS. 
- it is ideal for any hybrid melee / ranged build. Gather some charges in melee then focus on ranged DPS
- bonus damages is a more rare buff than all defenses (which is still somewhat rare). I don't remember a party buff to damages.
- bonus damages is relatively more efficient with spells (for MC Ranger / Caster). For weapons, I use the same metric as you : +X% damages bonus = +X/2% multiplicative factor (even less for Rogues). For for spell, it is close from +X% multiplicative (bar MIG and a couple other).

I was testing Hunter's Fang and noticed the +accuracy and damage don't apply when you switch weapons. You have to attack with hunter's fang again and then the bonuses apply. This is a problem for ranged weapons since you can't use hunter's fang with a ranged weapon equipped.  

Basically the ability doesn't work in this ranged/melee hybrid scenario. 

Did some additional testing, while trying to stack as much accuracy as possible noted hunter's fang doesn't seem to stack with marked prey. Maybe that's on purpose but it does make the ability less appealing, particularly since it is reset end of encounter now.

---

Also was looking back at rangers in POE1. Was my favorite class after barbarian. Both got nerfed pretty hard. But I saw for instance resilient companion and vicious companion were both nerfed. Resilient when from +3AR => +2AR, vicious went from +3pen =>+2 pen. Twinned Arrows went from an awesome modal to an ability. Had swift/vicious aim modals, both useful but especially swift. Defensive bond was stronger. Stalker's Link is the same but in POE1 only required one ability. Binding Roots lasted 30s instead of 20 and had longer range. Stunning Shots was amazing, went from a mid level ability that stuns on hit/crit to a high level ability that merely interrupts on crit.

There were some things that were overpowered, but as often happens when a class is overpowered, it gets overcorrected in sequels.

Hmm. I really want to do a POE1 ultimate run with a ranger now. Did one with barbarian. Ah, whatever happened to carnage?

Edited March 4, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Elric Galad]

5 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

 

I was testing Hunter's Fang and noticed the +accuracy and damage don't apply when you switch weapons. You have to attack with hunter's fang again and then the bonuses apply. This is a problem for ranged weapons since you can't use hunter's fang with a ranged weapon equipped.  

Basically the ability doesn't work in this ranged/melee hybrid scenario. 

Did some additional testing, while trying to stack as much accuracy as possible noted hunter's fang doesn't seem to stack with marked prey. Maybe that's on purpose but it does make the ability less appealing, particularly since it is reset end of encounter now.

That's weird but I'll check. I quickly looked at gamefiles but I've seen no filter on weapon. 

That being said, hunter's claw is an active effect, even with infinite duration. So if you have any other active effect applied (arquebus modal??) , it might get replaced. 

 

Marked Prey accuracy is actually a Passive effect (conditionned by an active status) so it should stack with everything. 

Anyone else can confirm the issue? I'm going to check on my own as soon as I can. 

5 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

---

Also was looking back at rangers in POE1. Was my favorite class after barbarian. Both got nerfed pretty hard. But I saw for instance resilient companion and vicious companion were both nerfed. Resilient when from +3AR => +2AR, vicious went from +3pen =>+2 pen. Twinned Arrows went from an awesome modal to an ability. Had swift/vicious aim modals, both useful but especially swift. Defensive bond was stronger. Stalker's Link is the same but in POE1 only required one ability. Binding Roots lasted 30s instead of 20 and had longer range. Stunning Shots was amazing, went from a mid level ability that stuns on hit/crit to a high level ability that merely interrupts on crit.

There were some things that were overpowered, but as often happens when a class is overpowered, it gets overcorrected in sequels.

Hmm. I really want to do a POE1 ultimate run with a ranger now. Did one with barbarian. Ah, whatever happened to carnage?

Mmm basically Multiclass happened. PoE1 style carnage would have led to overpowered combos probably. 

I tried to revive a bit PoE1 Carnage by adding crits (that synergizes with barb abilities) and ensuring Frenzy effects do apply, but I guess it is still not the same. 

Indeed Ranger was great in the end of PoE1. 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Shai Hulud]

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

That's weird but I'll check. I quickly looked at gamefiles but I've seen no filter on weapon. 

That being said, hunter's claw is an active effect, even with infinite duration. So if you have any other active effect applied (arquebus modal??) , it might get replaced. 

Okay so there's two separate things. First, beast's claw doesn't stack with marked prey. I have the bear standing off doing nothing in case there was something with stalker's link (there isn't).

After you cast marked prey, it shows up in the attack logs as marked prey until you land a beast's claw, then it shows two beast's claws like here. The marked prey bonus is still in effect, but it is mislabeled now.

Once the real beast's claw gets to +20, the first one that is a mislabled marked prey disappears. Here you can see there is no marked prey but it shows in Dorudugan's tooltip

So that's the first thing, beast's claw seems to replace marked prey once it gets maxed out, and recasting marked prey doesn't bring it back either.

The second thing is switching weapons removing the beast's claw effect. This one I could not reproduce in about 10 minutes of trying. But I'm 99% sure I didn't imagine it earlier, so I'd wager there's something funky with the ability. May mess with it more later see if it happens again.

Okay this is harder to show in a screenshot but I just loaded the single class ranger, started combat, cast marked prey, shadowed hunters, fired a couple arrows, switched to a generic legendary mace x 2, used hunter's fang, and it instantly went to +10, as you can see below if you squint through the log you see this is the first time I use hunter's fang.

I then tried switching to the bow and it correctly shows as +2 from the second strike of hunter's fang hitting. I can't reproduce the issue I had earlier with beast's claw / hunter's fang not transitioning on weapon switch, and the order I did things this time, marked prey still shows up even when I get to +20. Very strange...

Just to be sure I loaded the wanderer build again. I attacked several times with one weapon getting a few stacks of beast's claw, then switched to unarmed and it was gone but came back in the correct amount when I used beast's claw again. And when the stack got to 20 marked prey was gone again. Hmm. I may look into this more later but all I can really do is try various orders of doing things and seeing what happens. Definitely not working right though. 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Okay so there's two separate things. First, beast's claw doesn't stack with marked prey. I have the bear standing off doing nothing in case there was something with stalker's link (there isn't).

After you cast marked prey, it shows up in the attack logs as marked prey until you land a beast's claw, then it shows two beast's claws like here. The marked prey bonus is still in effect, but it is mislabeled now.

Once the real beast's claw gets to +20, the first one that is a mislabled marked prey disappears. Here you can see there is no marked prey but it shows in Dorudugan's tooltip

So that's the first thing, beast's claw seems to replace marked prey once it gets maxed out, and recasting marked prey doesn't bring it back either.

The second thing is switching weapons removing the beast's claw effect. This one I could not reproduce in about 10 minutes of trying. But I'm 99% sure I didn't imagine it earlier, so I'd wager there's something funky with the ability. May mess with it more later see if it happens again.

Okay this is harder to show in a screenshot but I just loaded the single class ranger, started combat, cast marked prey, shadowed hunters, fired a couple arrows, switched to a generic legendary mace x 2, used hunter's fang, and it instantly went to +10, as you can see below if you squint through the log you see this is the first time I use hunter's fang.

I then tried switching to the bow and it correctly shows as +2 from the second strike of hunter's fang hitting. I can't reproduce the issue I had earlier with beast's claw / hunter's fang not transitioning on weapon switch, and the order I did things this time, marked prey still shows up even when I get to +20. Very strange...

Just to be sure I loaded the wanderer build again. I attacked several times with one weapon getting a few stacks of beast's claw, then switched to unarmed and it was gone but came back in the correct amount when I used beast's claw again. And when the stack got to 20 marked prey was gone again. Hmm. I may look into this more later but all I can really do is try various orders of doing things and seeing what happens. Definitely not working right though. 

Excellent testing. 

Either There is something messed up in the gamedata (such as keyword reused) (EDIT : nothing obvious for the moment). Or the game has hardcoded trouble to manage mixed AllAccuracy Type bonus with conditions and stacking. 

I'll check later. I would recommand tests with Hunter's fang and some source of damages bonus (maybe that drugs that gives melee damages). 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

Basically, I'm suspecting a big mess when several accuracy bonuses are used (possibly conditional ones). Maybe there is a hard coded limit to what the game can manage. 

It seems that there is a priority rule. The latest effect applied (or refreshed) take the priority, potentially kicking out or messing up another effect (such as the mark). This could explain also why weapon swapping could mess up since weapons have their own acc bonuses. So equipping a new weapon add a new acc modifier, that kicks out Hunter's Claw until refreshed.

 

First step would be to check if stacks and mark are properly applied (as they seem to appear on UI). The count of stacks and display of mark seem right all time.
This would confirm the game messes up only with the final accuracy computing.

 

On a funny note, when I have to test something in game, I use a console-summoned dummy drawned zombie that deals basically zero damages.

You're probably the only one to test things versus Dorudugan  

Edited March 4, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

12 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Okay so there's two separate things. First, beast's claw doesn't stack with marked prey. I have the bear standing off doing nothing in case there was something with stalker's link (there isn't).

After you cast marked prey, it shows up in the attack logs as marked prey until you land a beast's claw, then it shows two beast's claws like here. The marked prey bonus is still in effect, but it is mislabeled now.

After second thought, that is not what happens. There is no mislabel, the +10 you see is Hunter's claw line inner +10 accuracy (the attack itself is a full attack with +10 accuracy, such as Blinding Strike for example).

Where the Marked prey has gone is the real question here.

12 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

 

Once the real beast's claw gets to +20, the first one that is a mislabled marked prey disappears. Here you can see there is no marked prey but it shows in Dorudugan's tooltip

So that's the first thing, beast's claw seems to replace marked prey once it gets maxed out, and recasting marked prey doesn't bring it back either.

Same here. The +10 Beast claw has gone because you aren't attacking with a +10 acc attack anymore.

Again the only question is where the Marked Prey bonus has gone. Which I can't reproduce...

12 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

The second thing is switching weapons removing the beast's claw effect. This one I could not reproduce in about 10 minutes of trying. But I'm 99% sure I didn't imagine it earlier, so I'd wager there's something funky with the ability. May mess with it more later see if it happens again.

Okay this is harder to show in a screenshot but I just loaded the single class ranger, started combat, cast marked prey, shadowed hunters, fired a couple arrows, switched to a generic legendary mace x 2, used hunter's fang, and it instantly went to +10, as you can see below if you squint through the log you see this is the first time I use hunter's fang.

Here everything is fine. This is your first attack, you have no charge from Hunter's Claw. So you get the intresic +10, as well as Marked Prey bonus.

12 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

I then tried switching to the bow and it correctly shows as +2 from the second strike of hunter's fang hitting. I can't reproduce the issue I had earlier with beast's claw / hunter's fang not transitioning on weapon switch, and the order I did things this time, marked prey still shows up even when I get to +20. Very strange...

This is normal behavior.

12 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Just to be sure I loaded the wanderer build again. I attacked several times with one weapon getting a few stacks of beast's claw, then switched to unarmed and it was gone but came back in the correct amount when I used beast's claw again. And when the stack got to 20 marked prey was gone again. Hmm. I may look into this more later but all I can really do is try various orders of doing things and seeing what happens. Definitely not working right though. 

Yep, it's weird but it seems that your Wanderer is the only one to get issues. What it means is beyond me.

And since I can't reproduce the issue, it's hard to correct. I'm not saying there's nothing. Tell me if you find some clue. 

 

EDIT : OK, I think I have a new thesis. I actually think that Marked Prey on your wanderer is not working at all.

What you considered to be a wrong label actually has nothing to do with Marked Prey, since it is the secondary effect of Hunter's Claw line. 

So you may have never spotted Marked Prey actually working on this character. You just believed you see it with a wrong label. Can you please check with this character, by just starting a battle, casting Marked Prey but no Hunter's Claw and checking the logs ? 

If Marked Prey does not work, it might be because you haven't acquired it normally by leveling. You might have consoled it to your character for test. But there are a couple of abilities in the game that work very wrong when Consoled : I think all pet passive Talents (including Pet + Ranger passive, and Marked Prey), Resonant Touch and Sworn Enemy. That's because they add passive abilities to your pet instead/in addition to your character, or a combination of active and passive. The console just add one component to your character, hence the trouble. (But there might be another cause for Marked Prey not working).

Edited March 4, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Yeah. For some abilities you need to console more than two parts. Some have a "<ability_name>_passive" component. For example One Stands Alone works like this, too (it's the part with the increased number of flankers). Took me some time to figure that out.  

[Shai Hulud]

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

After second thought, that is not what happens. There is no mislabel, the +10 you see is Hunter's claw line inner +10 accuracy (the attack itself is a full attack with +10 accuracy, such as Blinding Strike for example).

Where the Marked prey has gone is the real question here.

Same here. The +10 Beast claw has gone because you aren't attacking with a +10 acc attack anymore.

Again the only question is where the Marked Prey bonus has gone. Which I can't reproduce...

Here everything is fine. This is your first attack, you have no charge from Hunter's Claw. So you get the intresic +10, as well as Marked Prey bonus.

This is normal behavior.

Yep, it's weird but it seems that your Wanderer is the only one to get issues. What it means is beyond me.

And since I can't reproduce the issue, it's hard to correct. I'm not saying there's nothing. Tell me if you find some clue. 

 

EDIT : OK, I think I have a new thesis. I actually think that Marked Prey on your wanderer is not working at all.

What you considered to be a wrong label actually has nothing to do with Marked Prey, since it is the secondary effect of Hunter's Claw line. 

So you may have never spotted Marked Prey actually working on this character. You just believed you see it with a wrong label. Can you please check with this character, by just starting a battle, casting Marked Prey but no Hunter's Claw and checking the logs ? 

If Marked Prey does not work, it might be because you haven't acquired it normally by leveling. You might have consoled it to your character for test. But there are a couple of abilities in the game that work very wrong when Consoled : I think all pet passive Talents (including Pet + Ranger passive, and Marked Prey), Resonant Touch and Sworn Enemy. That's because they add passive abilities to your pet instead/in addition to your character, or a combination of active and passive. The console just add one component to your character, hence the trouble. (But there might be another cause for Marked Prey not working).

You're right, the wanderer's marked prey never goes into effect. It shows me casting it, says it hits, additional effects etc., shows on Dorudugan's tooltip, but I don't get the bonus accuracy. The way I created the character was with OpenCharacterCreation then AddExperience 190000, but everything else is normal. I did notice some weird stuff regarding the pet, mostly just that a few abilities he already had (resilient companion, vicious companion, one other I think) but he seemed to work normally in combat. I didn't console in marked prey though, I chose it at character creation in OpenCharacterCreation. Also tried removing it and adding it and still didn't work. But I did the same thing with the SC ranger (picked marked prey at character creation) and it works for him. I guess I should go back to a save before I made the first ranger if I make any ranger / X ? 

Is there a better way to level up characters? OpenCharacterCreation looked pretty clean.

Still, the whole reason I was even looking at the wanderer build was because I was messing around with the SC ranger (that's the one with hunter's fang not beast's claw) and the first time I tried, the hunter's fang bonuses didn't transfer to the bow, then I swapped to another melee weapon and they weren't there either but came back when I used Hunter's Fang again. When I was having trouble reproducing it I loaded the wanderer and that's when I noticed my marked prey issue, but later while testing the wanderer I did see the same thing happen with Beast's Claw, where it goes away on weapon switch and doesn't come back until you use Beast's Claw again. This Hunter's Fang / Beast's Claw issue is very hard to reproduce, though, and I have no idea why it happens some times but not others. Historically it has happened twice in about 30 minutes of testing. Next time I look into this I'll take some video so maybe I can figure that out.

[Elric Galad]

9 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

You're right, the wanderer's marked prey never goes into effect. It shows me casting it, says it hits, additional effects etc., shows on Dorudugan's tooltip, but I don't get the bonus accuracy. The way I created the character was with OpenCharacterCreation then AddExperience 190000, but everything else is normal. I did notice some weird stuff regarding the pet, mostly just that a few abilities he already had (resilient companion, vicious companion, one other I think) but he seemed to work normally in combat. I didn't console in marked prey though, I chose it at character creation in OpenCharacterCreation. Also tried removing it and adding it and still didn't work. But I did the same thing with the SC ranger (picked marked prey at character creation) and it works for him. I guess I should go back to a save before I made the first ranger if I make any ranger / X ? 

Is there a better way to level up characters? OpenCharacterCreation looked pretty clean.

Still, the whole reason I was even looking at the wanderer build was because I was messing around with the SC ranger (that's the one with hunter's fang not beast's claw) and the first time I tried, the hunter's fang bonuses didn't transfer to the bow, then I swapped to another melee weapon and they weren't there either but came back when I used Hunter's Fang again. When I was having trouble reproducing it I loaded the wanderer and that's when I noticed my marked prey issue, but later while testing the wanderer I did see the same thing happen with Beast's Claw, where it goes away on weapon switch and doesn't come back until you use Beast's Claw again. This Hunter's Fang / Beast's Claw issue is very hard to reproduce, though, and I have no idea why it happens some times but not others. Historically it has happened twice in about 30 minutes of testing. Next time I look into this I'll take some video so maybe I can figure that out.

Ok, keep me updated. Also if you spot an unpredictable bug, please check if There is an easy work around, such as swapping weapon an additional time. 

 

I don't know exactly why Marked Prey didn't work in your context. 

 

My plans for next BPM version are implemented and tested. I'm going to wait a couple more days, just in case something else is pointed, but you can expect release soon.

[thelee]

On 3/1/2023 at 1:42 PM, Elric Galad said:

Some pets count as dual wielding while some other do not, with absolutely zero justifications.

They all get 3s base attack recovery, but only Cat, Bear and Wolf counts as dual wielding

Ive been off social media for lent, so sorry for the necro, but say whaaaaat?? This is a vanilla game issue?

seems like this should also be addressed in the community patch bug fixes

[Elric Galad]

9 minutes ago, thelee said:

Ive been off social media for lent, so sorry for the necro, but say whaaaaat?? This is a vanilla game issue?

Yes

I found it by comparing the values on your gamefaqs and @Shai Huludtesting. Something was wrong so I checked the game files, spotted something weird, checked in game and compared the results with gamefile again. 

Test it for yourself to be sure. 

9 minutes ago, thelee said:

seems like this should also be addressed in the community patch bug fixes

As @MaxQuestwants. It will be include in next BPM version. He can pick the file for CP. 

[MaxQuest]

On 3/1/2023 at 11:42 PM, Elric Galad said:

Some pets count as dual wielding while some other do not, with absolutely zero justifications.

They all get 3s base attack recovery, but only Cat, Bear and Wolf counts as dual wielding 

Could the justification be that these animal companions presumably use claw attacks and thus two paws?

Meanwhile:

• boar is more adept at tripping charge and using his tusks.
• antilope uses her hooves (?)
• stag uses his hooves (?) and antlers

Although this still leaves lion, who should also get the same DW bonus as cat/wolf. 

-------

On the other hand, predators also have fangs, so there are bite attacks.

But in any case that DW bonus is not listed anywhere, so it's kinda slightly unfair as is.

Edited March 5, 2023 by MaxQuest

[Elric Galad]

26 minutes ago, MaxQuest said:

Could the justification be that these animal companions presumably use claw attacks and thus two paws?

Meanwhile:

• boar is more adept at tripping charge and using his tusks.
• antilope uses her hooves (?)
• stag uses his hooves (?) and antlers

Although this still leaves lion, who should also get the same DW bonus as cat/wolf. 

Cat is actually the lion. 

But yeah, it is probably the reason but... 

26 minutes ago, MaxQuest said:

-------

On the other hand, predators also have fangs, so there are bite attacks.

But in any case that DW bonus is not listed anywhere, so it's kinda slightly unfair as is.

This bonus is comparable to cat's special in term of power. So it should have been listed.

Or those two handed pets could have done damages more two-handedish. 

All their Attacks are aligned (bar Wolf who deals greater damages). So I'm pretty sure it is an oversight. 

[Elric Galad]

OK, now I'm turning my attention on Minor Intervention and Light of Eoathas.

I've always thought about these ones as situational but useful abilities. However, their unique trait, reducing Hostile effects duration, feels a bit weak.

-5s for a Tier 6 and -10s for a Tier 9 feel too low for their levels.

I'm thinking about doubling them to -10s for Minor Intervention (basically dispels nasty harcd Crowd Control) and -20s for Light of Eoathas (purge a bit everything including most of Disintigrate). This would feel right. I think the healing value can stay as instant heals are always good even if the value isn't that high.

 

Other topic is Single Class Paladin.

Previously, I heavily nerfed Divine Retribution (to +1 Zeal per downed ally instead of 2) because I felt that SC Paladin raw power relied too heavily on spamming summons to have them killed. I lowered a couple of Zeal costs (sacred immolation behind paid on health mostly), but now I feel that they lack a bit of Ooomph.

I propose to add a second effect (also Zeal regen) to Divine Retribution so it helps a bit Pals when they are on their own. Currently thinking about a 12s tick that gives x% chance of +1 Zeal, where x is the % of health loss :
- an almost dead Paladin would gain almost 1 Zeal every 12s
- a 50% health Paladin would gain 1 Zeal every 24s on average.
These values seem reasonable and emphasize SC Paladin playing with their own health (with all the self damages and self resurrecting stuff).

 

I'm also thinking about Light of Pure Zeal.

The ability feels balanced on its own, but I'm meditating on its role on SC Paladin builds.

I think SC Paladins really lack ability to deal non fire damages. I think the ability could use a tweak to become Shock / Cold damages instead of Shock / Burn (it isn't even keyworded, and the damages type feel a bit "magical" at the moment).

I'm also wondering about a Tier 9 ability (supposed to be the pinacle of a build) being focused on a couple of enemy types. So what about making the damages universal ? Maybe less damages vs non-spirit non vessel, with current damages vs them, or maybe just get rid of this part for the sake of simplification (also easier to balance if all targets take the same damages ; I feel it is borderline too powerful vs Vessels and Spirits at the moment, especially considering the instant cast and no friendly fire parts).

Or there could be some out of the box idea such as LoPZ affecting also Sworn targets (but on a technical side, I think it would affect all Sworn targets, including Sworn by other paladin) in addition to Spirits and Vessels.

I like LoPZ being so costly and devastating so I would like at least to keep this aspect. 

Edited March 5, 2023 by Elric Galad

[NotDumbEnough]

I think reduction of hostile effect duration is quite strong especially later on where you might have many debuffs on you at the same time (such as fampyr fights). It is not -5 seconds of one hostile effect, but potentially 3 or 4 or 5. That said a buff would not make it broken.

I do think more Zeal regen for Paladins is good. They have a tendency to draw out fights and make otherwise short encounters last a long time, and can often run out of resources.

I do think Paladin needs some non-fire damage. I also think LoPZ should really not roll vs fortitude as lots and lots of vessels (especially fampyrs) have really high fortitude. If LoPZ was shock/cold damage vs. enemy will, I would definitely pick it a lot more (I basically don't pick it right now). Would also add a niche in having a direct damage ability vs will, as most cipher abilities vs will either have low damage or are damage over time, and most other classes don't have damage rolls vs will at all.

[Shai Hulud]

8 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

OK, now I'm turning my attention on Minor Intervention and Light of Eoathas.

I've always thought about these ones as situational but useful abilities. However, their unique trait, reducing Hostile effects duration, feels a bit weak.

-5s for a Tier 6 and -10s for a Tier 9 feel too low for their levels.

I'm thinking about doubling them to -10s for Minor Intervention (basically dispels nasty harcd Crowd Control) and -20s for Light of Eoathas (purge a bit everything including most of Disintigrate). This would feel right. I think the healing value can stay as instant heals are always good even if the value isn't that high.

 

Other topic is Single Class Paladin.

Previously, I heavily nerfed Divine Retribution (to +1 Zeal per downed ally instead of 2) because I felt that SC Paladin raw power relied too heavily on spamming summons to have them killed. I lowered a couple of Zeal costs (sacred immolation behind paid on health mostly), but now I feel that they lack a bit of Ooomph.

I propose to add a second effect (also Zeal regen) to Divine Retribution so it helps a bit Pals when they are on their own. Currently thinking about a 12s tick that gives x% chance of +1 Zeal, where x is the % of health loss :
- an almost dead Paladin would gain almost 1 Zeal every 12s
- a 50% health Paladin would gain 1 Zeal every 24s on average.
These values seem reasonable and emphasize SC Paladin playing with their own health (with all the self damages and self resurrecting stuff).

 

I'm also thinking about Light of Pure Zeal.

The ability feels balanced on its own, but I'm meditating on its role on SC Paladin builds.

I think SC Paladins really lack ability to deal non fire damages. I think the ability could use a tweak to become Shock / Cold damages instead of Shock / Burn (it isn't even keyworded, and the damages type feel a bit "magical" at the moment).

I'm also wondering about a Tier 9 ability (supposed to be the pinacle of a build) being focused on a couple of enemy types. So what about making the damages universal ? Maybe less damages vs non-spirit non vessel, with current damages vs them, or maybe just get rid of this part for the sake of simplification (also easier to balance if all targets take the same damages ; I feel it is borderline too powerful vs Vessels and Spirits at the moment, especially considering the instant cast and no friendly fire parts).

Or there could be some out of the box idea such as LoPZ affecting also Sworn targets (but on a technical side, I think it would affect all Sworn targets, including Sworn by other paladin) in addition to Spirits and Vessels.

I like LoPZ being so costly and devastating so I would like at least to keep this aspect. 

I haven't played priests much but I agree I always thought Minor Intercession was pretty weak as it is basically a weaker version of restore plus a super weak suppress affliction. I mean 5 seconds is enough for like one spell. Also the spellcaster classes have no resource regen besides blood mage. I find myself rarely wanting to play druid or priest for this reason. I guess compared to other classes they have more abilities so are more likely to get through fights without running out.

---------------

Proposed paladin changes seem reasonable.  But I thought light of pure zeal was fire / frost ? Are there any enemies immune to both?

I have some additional thoughts and suggestions after reviewing and testing various abilities. Note my testing has been pretty limited compared to e.g. ranger so some of this could be off.

Paladin IMO seems too limited in its "party support" role. Would be cool if some of the exhortations could be cast on oneself. Admittedly that part is biased from someone who likes to play solo. Moving on...

First the subclasses, Darcozzi Paladini and Bleak Walkers seem especially weak, Kind Wayfarers also weak. Compared to Gilded Enmity or Steel Garrote's returned health on damage, adding a flame shield or some corrode damage to a "meh" ability is still very much "meh". 

Looking at some of the other abilities,

Hands of Light and Greater Lay On Hands seem kind of expensive at 2 zeal. You just get 15s / 10s of courageous / robust respectively. There are very few single upgrade abilities that cost more than the original, I wonder why these are an exception? Even in paladin all the other ability upgrades cost the same amount. Like Hastening Exhortation to Hastening Command goes 15s nimble => 25s nimble, 25s strong, same price, which I know you changed but seems reasonable.  Sacred Immolation => Sacred Sacrifice has quintuple duration for same price. I can't think of a good reason Hands of Light and Greater Lay on Hands cost twice as much, this doesn't happen with other heals like heal companion / hardy companion, savage defiance / savage courage, etc.

Reinforcing Exhortation duration and especially upgrades seem a bit low at 10s. 15s seems more appropriate for L8 abilities.

Glorious Beacon and upgrades duration seems low at 8s for 2 zeal. I mean chill fog lasts 15s and does damage (and is L1), sunbeam also L1 same duration but does damage. 

Liberating line seems good as is at 1 zeal with reasonable 15s durations. Reviving Line seems fine, ressurrection should be expensive. Hastening line seems good as is.

Exalted Focus / Charge / Endurance. Charge upgrade (10% hit to graze) seems a little weak compared to the other two.

Abjuration is something I'm never going to take, 3 zeal for single target damage limited to spirits and summons? Granted it destroys lower level spirits/summons but still, spirits and summons usually aren't enough of a problem to warrant spending 3+ zeal on them IMO.

Providence seems too strong. At L20 you have typically anywhere from 9 to 16 zeal (possibly even more), giving you 3 to 5 full extra lives without zeal regeneration. My char has 14 with just paladin passives, crusted swordfish and adratic glow. If you're using a Potion of Enlightenment, you can die once every 90 seconds, sustainably (except for the injuries eventually killing you on high dificulties), kind of negating the downside of sacred sacrifice. Compare to fighter's unbreakable / unrelenting, which while free is one / encounter and gives you only 100 health (and some defensive bonuses). Providence seems like it should cost more or you don't come back with full health. Or per encounter like fighter. I do have one complaint where it could be improved though, the ability not removing injuries is really annoying and means you have to chug a ton of luminous adra potions or rest a lot. 

Sacred Immolation and upgrades, seem fine except when you can't use it because of things resistant to burn. Would be cooler if did like burn/slash or something, but I understand that doesn't really fit thematically.  Also the self-damage doesn't show up in the log or above the character. Divine Immolation health upgrade doesn't scale with +health like every other ability. But the self-damage does scale with might and power level. Not sure what the justification for this is given the healing doesn't apply to the paladin. 

As you seem aware, Divine Retribution seems really busted in a party given summons count as allies. Just as example of said bustedness, if you have one or more chanters you could use divine immolation permanently, it lasts 26s with high int for 2 zeal, you could easily sustain that killing summons and probably have enough left over to heal yourself. Even not in a party charm of bones necklace is basically 10 free zeal per rest. And it isn't a very organic way to get zeal back since it forces you to artificially summon things and kill them or else kill your own party members which is generally not desirable.

A better mechanic and one that fits more with the paladin's theme of immolating himself would be similar to what you suggest, zeal every x sec per health loss, though I think it should be tied to losing health, not merely being at low health, otherwise it is easy to make builds that lose some heatlh then sit around in back lines handing out endless exhortations and healing to the party. So it could be +1 zeal per X% of health lost (probably should be near 100 but just a guess)

Light of Pure Zeal seems like it should target reflex. Nearly every fire/frost attack in the game targets reflex. 

All that said, the main thing I would like to see is hands of light / greater lay on hands reduced to 1 zeal and exhortations being self-targetable would be awesome though that is admittedly solo-biased. And I don't really like paladins much so these are just suggestions, won't endlessly debate like with ranger.

------------

I have lots of suggestions for barbarian also, let me know if/when you're ready to open that door.

 

 

[Bosmer]

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

I have lots of suggestions for barbarian also, let me know if/when you're ready to open that door.

Hahah, now I'm curious. I thought that the BPM made Barbarians very strong single-class and multi-class material. I have to agree, however, on the general notion, that Single-class paladins still feel lacking. In my current run I'd really love to see Pallegina as SC Paladin, I just don't see how it comes close to Heralgina in terms of utility, damage or party support.

Can't Divine Retribution be modified to only work on Party Members and not summons? Such as some items do iirc? This way it might still be useful for non-summon-parties?

[Shai Hulud]

  

4 hours ago, Bosmer said:

Hahah, now I'm curious. I thought that the BPM made Barbarians very strong single-class and multi-class material. I have to agree, however, on the general notion, that Single-class paladins still feel lacking. In my current run I'd really love to see Pallegina as SC Paladin, I just don't see how it comes close to Heralgina in terms of utility, damage or party support.

Can't Divine Retribution be modified to only work on Party Members and not summons? Such as some items do iirc? This way it might still be useful for non-summon-parties?

BPM did improve barbarians and they make fantastic fighters in multiclass builds, like brutes, ravagers, and savages are all really, really good, but this is mostly because of some low to mid level passives (one stands alone, blooded, bloody slaughter, interrupting blows, threatening presence, bloodlust) and just two active abilities (blood storm and stalwart defiance). These abilities allow you to do tons of damage, interrupt on crits, and with potions of enlightenment and high INT and perception / hit to crit you can keep up blood storm and stalwart defiance throughout even the longest fights. The rest of the active abilities, while some are fun (heart of fury, yay!), are pretty superfluous and don't really add anything to the class's utility (besides maybe leap if you can't get a movement power from another class). The tier 8 and tier 9s are especially "meh" and going single class doesn't really add anything to the awesome tier 1 to 7 abilities besides power level, which isn't as important for the barbarian as say a monk. And 33% resource regen on kill is not nearly enough reason to go SC, particularly when you can just take corpse eater and get +3 rage per corpse (though I generally prefer generic barbarian).

----

Got a bit of a rant here. Was playtesting a savage (generic barbarian / generic ranger).

Overall it is a ridiculously good build, can stack accuracy + defenses with ranger's beast claw (plus marked prey etc.) and stack damage, action speed, plus good healing with barbarian. Plus 50% interrupts on crit. Build had no problem with any megabosses (minus Hauni O Whe). Doesn't even need armor. 

Dorudugan was second hardest, but he goes down eventually if you can damage him fast enough while healing yourself. Anyway, I go on to fight HOW, naked because armor breaks stupid fast in that fight. I have like a 60+ roll adjustment against HOW's deflection (accuracy stacks, flanked, cap of the laughingstock) plus power of money, pes, uncanny luck etc. so I am a crit machine, and with savage hunter talent (nice improvement btw) can do decent damage even without full pen. But the pet is actually kind of a problem here because it means more symbiote procs. Killed HOW form but a massive ooze formed from symbiotes in the meantime. I kill the massive ooze and about 50 smaller ones that keep popping up. Then the two gigantic oozes, as soon as one gets to bloodied it starts merging of course, and I can crit these guys like 80% but I only interrupt half the time, either I missed the interrupt on both or one was out of range of the carnage because the bloody things insantly merged back into HOW. Hadn't really lost any resources though, blood storm only has to be cast once in this fight, so could have kept going if I had to but I rage quit. Might try it again later with a ghost heart / barbarian, or just stick the boar in the corner until there's just smaller oozes left. 50% interrupt on crit may not be good enough, even with carnage and maxed INT, which is kind of sad (would be nice if you could see the carnage effect area like in POE1). Howlers sound good theoretically (energized + carnage) but can't reliably crit things. Maybe a wildrhymer could do it with the constant energized...but wildrhymer will have more trouble with Dorudugan. Well, maybe not, that fight might be possible with legendary war bow + overdraw + energized, think that puts you at 18 pen, then use summons to protect myself. The main question is whether that can damage him fast enough. Possibly, with Sure-handed Ila.

Would be easy without abydon challenge, just use essence interrupter. Also, I recently discovered generic legendary weapons aren't subject to abydon challenge for some reason. Armor breaks down unique or not, but the generic weapons seem fine. Fists are still often the best choice but when you need ranged the generic legendary war bows are nice.

This rant does have a bit of a point. First, really like the barbarian improvements in BPM, though it could probably use a bit more. Second, Blood Storm sometimes gives way too much time for crits. Normally it gives about 3 seconds on a crit but occasionally far more. I haven't found out exactly what triggers it but I had like 20,000 seconds of Blood Storm after about 45m and just the one cast. I saw it jump by over a thousand at certain points. I think it is an interaction between interrupting blows and blood storm. Not really a problem from my POV not to have to cast Blood Storm as much but thought I'd mention it.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Elric Galad]

14 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

I haven't played priests much but I agree I always thought Minor Intercession was pretty weak as it is basically a weaker version of restore plus a super weak suppress affliction. I mean 5 seconds is enough for like one spell. Also the spellcaster classes have no resource regen besides blood mage. I find myself rarely wanting to play druid or priest for this reason. I guess compared to other classes they have more abilities so are more likely to get through fights without running out.

---------------

Proposed paladin changes seem reasonable.  But I thought light of pure zeal was fire / frost ? Are there any enemies immune to both?

I have a doubt how it works vs Fire absorbant foes. Fire Nagas have low Fire armor, so they might end up aborbing Fire instead of taking cold damages. 

14 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

I have some additional thoughts and suggestions after reviewing and testing various abilities. Note my testing has been pretty limited compared to e.g. ranger so some of this could be off.

Paladin IMO seems too limited in its "party support" role. Would be cool if some of the exhortations could be cast on oneself. Admittedly that part is biased from someone who likes to play solo. Moving on...

I get why but this is the same question as Cipher buffs. They are somehow intended to be ally only. Note that There are mods that tweak Cipher and it should be easy to do for pal. 

Just not BPM purpose. 

14 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

First the subclasses, Darcozzi Paladini

Well, their ability adds up for free, dealing about as much damages as Steel Garotte can steal. Also Outworn Buckler works better on them. 

14 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

and Bleak Walkers seem especially weak,

I think the sicken is nice. Reducing target health with a heavy hitting attack is neat. And it has great synergy with Spirit of Decay and that Void Hełm would grant them +10 acc for FoD. 

14 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Kind Wayfarers also weak.

I think it is the strongest subclass with dual wield. 28 health Aoe on top of FoD is neat. 

14 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Compared to Gilded Enmity or Steel Garrote's returned health on damage, adding a flame shield or some corrode damage to a "meh" ability is still very much "meh". 

I think pal subclasses are okay. 

14 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Looking at some of the other abilities,

Hands of Light and Greater Lay On Hands seem kind of expensive at 2 zeal. You just get 15s / 10s of courageous / robust respectively. There are very few single upgrade abilities that cost more than the original, I wonder why these are an exception? Even in paladin all the other ability upgrades cost the same amount. Like Hastening Exhortation to Hastening Command goes 15s nimble => 25s nimble, 25s strong, same price, which I know you changed but seems reasonable.  Sacred Immolation => Sacred Sacrifice has quintuple duration for same price. I can't think of a good reason Hands of Light and Greater Lay on Hands cost twice as much, this doesn't happen with other heals like heal companion / hardy companion, savage defiance / savage courage, etc.

They are not upgrades but different abilities (it can't be changed easily, so there will always be botg on the UI, which is an issue if one is strictly better). As Shadow Step for Escape. Different abilities need a drawback so extra cost is appropriate. Their power level can be questioned though (BPM already changed it) : if anything you may point that GLoH or HoL are too weak. 

BPM GLoH heals about twice as much as LoH, on top of +2 AR and some CON. It is worth the increase. 

No one complains about LoH being weak so GLoH isn't weak either IMHO. 

None of the abilities you de scribe here does something as strong as adding a Tier 3 inspiration on a 1 cost ability. That's why they are impossible to compare IMHO. 

14 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Reinforcing Exhortation duration and especially upgrades seem a bit low at 10s. 15s seems more appropriate for L8 abilities.

It is Tier 7 but I agree 

14 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Glorious Beacon and upgrades duration seems low at 8s for 2 zeal. I mean chill fog lasts 15s and does damage (and is L1), sunbeam also L1 same duration but does damage. 

Glorious beacon is indeed rather bad. The issue is that the upgrades are REALLY strong. I already rolled back from a 12s Glorious Beacon cause People complained the +40% damages upgrade was too strong. 

14 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Liberating line seems good as is at 1 zeal with reasonable 15s durations.

Upgrade might be tweaked if all other exho get better. 

14 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Reviving Line seems fine, ressurrection should be expensive. Hastening line seems good as is.

Exalted Focus / Charge / Endurance. Charge upgrade (10% hit to graze) seems a little weak compared to the other two.

I agree for charge upgrade (to 15%). 

14 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Abjuration is something I'm never going to take, 3 zeal for single target damage limited to spirits and summons? Granted it destroys lower level spirits/summons but still, spirits and summons usually aren't enough of a problem to warrant spending 3+ zeal on them IMO.

Situational ability to pick. But can't really be better. 

14 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Providence seems too strong. At L20 you have typically anywhere from 9 to 16 zeal (possibly even more), giving you 3 to 5 full extra lives without zeal regeneration. My char has 14 with just paladin passives, crusted swordfish and adratic glow. If you're using a Potion of Enlightenment, you can die once every 90 seconds, sustainably (except for the injuries eventually killing you on high dificulties), kind of negating the downside of sacred sacrifice. Compare to fighter's unbreakable / unrelenting, which while free is one / encounter and gives you only 100 health (and some defensive bonuses). Providence seems like it should cost more or you don't come back with full health. Or per encounter like fighter. I do have one complaint where it could be improved though, the ability not removing injuries is really annoying and means you have to chug a ton of luminous adra potions or rest a lot. 

Providence is a secret buff to Constitution. Sacred Sacrifice had a similar effect on vanilla and no one complained. 

3 zeal is a lot, but appropriate for a rez and the wound drawback is still here. 

Anyway it is meant to be a strong advantage of SC. 

14 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Sacred Immolation and upgrades, seem fine except when you can't use it because of things resistant to burn. Would be cooler if did like burn/slash or something, but I understand that doesn't really fit thematically.  Also the self-damage doesn't show up in the log or above the character. Divine Immolation health upgrade doesn't scale with +health like every other ability.

Not understood? +health what? 

14 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

But the self-damage does scale with might and power level. Not sure what the justification for this is given the healing doesn't apply to the paladin. 

As you seem aware, Divine Retribution seems really busted in a party given summons count as allies. Just as example of said bustedness, if you have one or more chanters you could use divine immolation permanently, it lasts 26s with high int for 2 zeal, you could easily sustain that killing summons and probably have enough left over to heal yourself.

Indeed, that is why I nerfed it to 1 zeal. Still work, but much less rewarding. 

14 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Even not in a party charm of bones necklace is basically 10 free zeal per rest. And it isn't a very organic way to get zeal back since it forces you to artificially summon things and kill them or else kill your own party members which is generally not desirable.

A better mechanic and one that fits more with the paladin's theme of immolating himself would be similar to what you suggest, zeal every x sec per health loss, though I think it should be tied to losing health, not merely being at low health, otherwise it is easy to make builds that lose some heatlh then sit around in back lines handing out endless exhortations and healing to the party. So it could be +1 zeal per X% of health lost (probably should be near 100 but just a guess)

I thought about it, but it is impossible to implement. That's why I came with health level. 

14 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Light of Pure Zeal seems like it should target reflex. Nearly every fire/frost attack in the game targets reflex. 

Sure but shining beacon is Will. Better to have different abilities target different defenses. 

14 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

All that said, the main thing I would like to see is hands of light / greater lay on hands reduced to 1 zeal and exhortations being self-targetable would be awesome though that is admittedly solo-biased. And I don't really like paladins much so these are just suggestions, won't endlessly debate like with ranger.

------------

I have lots of suggestions for barbarian also, let me know if/when you're ready to open that door.

 

 

I'll complete laterna about barb. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Elric Galad

[NotDumbEnough]

9 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

  BPM did improve barbarians and they make fantastic fighters in multiclass builds, like brutes, ravagers, and savages are all really, really good, but this is mostly because of some low to mid level passives (one stands alone, blooded, bloody slaughter, interrupting blows, threatening presence, bloodlust) and just two active abilities (blood storm and stalwart defiance). These abilities allow you to do tons of damage, interrupt on crits, and with potions of enlightenment and high INT and perception / hit to crit you can keep up blood storm and stalwart defiance throughout even the longest fights. The rest of the active abilities, while some are fun (heart of fury, yay!), are pretty superfluous and don't really add anything to the class's utility (besides maybe leap if you can't get a movement power from another class). The tier 8 and tier 9s are especially "meh" and going single class doesn't really add anything to the awesome tier 1 to 7 abilities besides power level, which isn't as important for the barbarian as say a monk. And 33% resource regen on kill is not nearly enough reason to go SC, particularly when you can just take corpse eater and get +3 rage per corpse (though I generally prefer generic barbarian).

I don't really see how SC barbarian is weak in any way. The shouts are amazing, you can literally end most fights just by shouting the enemies to death with the long range shout, or keep them permanently dazed + deal decent damage with the other one. Retaliation is also extremely strong, especially if you really dump your deflection. With heavy armor (especially Patinated Plate), Fire Godlike and the daze shout, you can keep the enemy permanently underpenetrating against your armor, even if they crit. Leap is also very good, a very fast, spammable AoE 6 second stun + damage is ridiculous for 2 resources (compare vs Gaze of the Adragan).

I get the feeling that you are looking at the classes in the context of megaboss fights which is not the right idea IMO. The game is not balanced around megaboss fights and outside of maybe Belranga they are very poorly designed due to ridiculously high boss defenses and the need for resource regeneration.

Edited March 6, 2023 by NotDumbEnough

[Shai Hulud]

9 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

They are not upgrades but different abilities (it can't be changed easily, so there will always be botg on the UI, which is an issue if one is strictly better). As Shadow Step for Escape. Different abilities need a drawback so extra cost is appropriate. Their power level can be questioned though (BPM already changed it) : if anything you may point that GLoH or HoL are too weak. 

BPM GLoH heals about twice as much as LoH, on top of +2 AR and some CON. It is worth the increase. 

No one complains about LoH being weak so GLoH isn't weak either IMHO. 

None of the abilities you de scribe here does something as strong as adding a Tier 3 inspiration on a 1 cost ability. That's why they are impossible to compare IMHO. 

I can find very few other ability trees where the upgraded ability costs more than the original (escape => shadowing beyond comes to mind), and they're all upgraded, different abilities, whatever.  You can argue the tier 3 inspirations are extra strong and deserve special consideration. I don't think so personally, though it depends on the inspiration. There are many other abilities with very strong upgrades that do not require more resources. For instance, So Singt Thy Biting Winds O Eld Nary => Eld Nary's Curse Spread Through Their Midst goes from 4 jumps to 12, making the ability far better but it costs the same. Sacred Immolation => Sacred Sacrifice has quintuple duration, for the same price. Shadowing Beyond => Enduring Shadows adds a Tier 3 and doubles duration and costs the same (in vanilla anyway). Your upgrade of strike the bell has an infinite duration upgrade, for the same price. 

But it's not even unique for a Tier 3 inspiration to cost 1 resource, even at power level 3. Just look at Disciplined Strikes. It provides 15s of intuitive and concentration for 1 discipline. I think hands of light is similar. You get a tier 3 inspiration for a short duration (you upgraded it to 15s at least), plus another effect, in this case short duration healing. Greater Lay On Hands is even worse. 10s of robust + short duration healing. And intuitive is stronger than courageous IMO given courageous is rarely much more useful than resolute and there are other ways to get immunity to interrupts (rekvu's fractured casque). Plus there are other abilities that give tier 3s cheap, like Pain Block gives 18s robust for 40 focus. It is hard to compare 40 focus to X zeal. Ciphers start with variable focus (generally 100+, so higher initial cost) but can also generate about 50 focus in one attack, so I consider pain block a very cheap cast, similar to 1 zeal. Echoing Shield is Tier 2 but gives a very long duration AOE resolute (30s) for 50 focus, PLUS removes enemy concentration, and is another cast I consider cheap for the effect. Then there are wizard and priest spells which don't directly translate but deleterious alacrity of motion gives swift AND 15% action speed instantly, no recovery, with a healing malus but it is still ridiculously good. Champion's Boon gives resolute + tenacious for 30s. The only Tier 3 that is really busted is brilliant which is super rare and you nerfed (energized kinda busted but also quite rare).  

Anyway it isn't the cost you should look at so much as duration per cost. So one could increase duration of effects for GLOH and HOL or reduce cost with similar effect (increasing duration is stronger since you don't get more recovery time from casting twice).

And *I have complained* about Lay on Hands being weak, for whatever that is worth. But that reasoning is illogical anyway. If the base ability is fine, that doesn't mean the upgrade (or separate ability that is higher up in the tree) is worth taking. There are many examples, do I need to list them?

IMO Hands of Light, GLOH should either extend duration to 20s+ or cost 1 zeal. Alternatively, Hands of Light could give the healing plus resolute for a long duration (25s to 30s IMO). Personally would rather have long duration resolute than short duration courageous. GLOH doesn't translate to tier 2 as well since hardy is much worse than robust while resolute is only slightly worse than courageous. 

There aren't many sources of either robust or courageous so buffing these abilities would make paladins more competitive. 

9 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Not understood? +health what? 

Indeed, that is why I nerfed it to 1 zeal. Still work, but much less rewarding. 

I thought about it, but it is impossible to implement. That's why I came with health level.  

Divine Immolation provides +20 health per 3 sec to allies in a 2.5 radius from caster. Unlike every other healing spell/ability I can think of, Divine Immolation healing does not scale with +healing items, buffs, might, and power level (you always get 20 per 3s), but the raw damage to self does scale with items, buffs, might, and power level. Seems like both should scale or neither. If you're taking more damage to self to fuel the immolation, it should produce more healing, right? 

9 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

I'll complete laterna about barb. 

Eh, what is laterna?

7 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I don't really see how SC barbarian is weak in any way. The shouts are amazing, you can literally end most fights just by shouting the enemies to death with the long range shout, or keep them permanently dazed + deal decent damage with the other one. Retaliation is also extremely strong, especially if you really dump your deflection. With heavy armor (especially Patinated Plate), Fire Godlike and the daze shout, you can keep the enemy permanently underpenetrating against your armor, even if they crit. Leap is also very good, a very fast, spammable AoE 6 second stun + damage is ridiculous for 2 resources (compare vs Gaze of the Adragan).

I get the feeling that you are looking at the classes in the context of megaboss fights which is not the right idea IMO. The game is not balanced around megaboss fights and outside of maybe Belranga they are very poorly designed due to ridiculously high boss defenses and the need for resource regeneration.

You're not exactly wrong, but no I'm not *just* thinking about the context of megabosses, but yes megabosses, DLC content and other bosses, splintered reef, even the lowly cave grub fight. I focus on difficult encounters because they're gating, whereas easy encounters are easy. It really doesn't matter how a build performs in easy encounters if it can't handle tougher ones. Granted you can skip the very hardest encounters (the four megabosses), but not the rest. And a build that can handle the toughest content can easily handle the rest, while the inverse is not necessarily true.

SC barbarian is not "bad" it is just worse than multiclassing barbarian. IMO Tier 8+ abilities should be really, really good to offset losing 7 tiers of abilities from another class.

Eh... I think the shouts are very meh for being L9. Lot of enemies have might resistances so you may not even get them dazed, but staggered (if you even hit with barbarian's bad accuracy), the damage is meh (more meh on the dazing one), and they cost 3 ability picks. Any character can put on patinated plate or take fire godlike. If you want to be an armor tank, a barbarian/goldpact knight adds like 8 armor with gilded enmity, stoic steel, and exalted endurance, and all you lose is the questionable tier 8+ abilities. And that's passive, doesn't require you to spam daze to debuff enemies. Blood mage also offers +5 armor plus much more. Retaliation is the only really good L8+ pick IMO, and I agree it's good but pure barbarians suffer in certain areas, mostly lacking +accuracy, hit-to-crit, and armor, and all their +damage and action speed talents are tier 7 or lower, so you can gain more by multiclassing than going SC.

That's my take anyway. I realize not everyone looks at this the same way. 

[Bosmer]

On 3/5/2023 at 11:34 PM, Elric Galad said:

I propose to add a second effect (also Zeal regen) to Divine Retribution so it helps a bit Pals when they are on their own. Currently thinking about a 12s tick that gives x% chance of +1 Zeal, where x is the % of health loss :
- an almost dead Paladin would gain almost 1 Zeal every 12s
- a 50% health Paladin would gain 1 Zeal every 24s on average.
These values seem reasonable and emphasize SC Paladin playing with their own health (with all the self damages and self resurrecting stuff).

Nice idea and I think the values seem right, but regarding the technical implementation.. why make it a 12s tick? Wouldn't it be more transparent to have a faster tick (1s or 3s) that provides accordingly lower chances, such that the exact timing of the tick becomes less relevant. It might feel a bit tedious to try to make sure that each tick lands on a low-health moment in order to maximize resource generation.

Just brainstorming here: Would it be possible to combine the two effects (since they lie both on devine retribution), such that they kind of exclude each other? Meaning: Divine Retribution providing zeal for downed ally in 5-Meter AoE and at the same time number of allies in 5-Meter AoE lowering the chances to get the on-health-lost zeal generation? By doing so you would make sure that summon-killing is not the superior (and overpowered) strategy.  

[Elric Galad]

8 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

I can find very few other ability trees where the upgraded ability costs more than the original (escape => shadowing beyond comes to mind), and they're all upgraded, different abilities, whatever.  You can argue the tier 3 inspirations are extra strong and deserve special consideration. I don't think so personally, though it depends on the inspiration. There are many other abilities with very strong upgrades that do not require more resources. For instance, So Singt Thy Biting Winds O Eld Nary => Eld Nary's Curse Spread Through Their Midst goes from 4 jumps to 12, making the ability far better but it costs the same. Sacred Immolation => Sacred Sacrifice has quintuple duration, for the same price. Shadowing Beyond => Enduring Shadows adds a Tier 3 and doubles duration and costs the same (in vanilla anyway). Your upgrade of strike the bell has an infinite duration upgrade, for the same price. 

But it's not even unique for a Tier 3 inspiration to cost 1 resource, even at power level 3. Just look at Disciplined Strikes. It provides 15s of intuitive and concentration for 1 discipline. I think hands of light is similar. You get a tier 3 inspiration for a short duration (you upgraded it to 15s at least), plus another effect, in this case short duration healing.

Concentration is much weaker than the healing from LoH. 

8 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Greater Lay On Hands is even worse. 10s of robust + short duration healing. And intuitive is stronger than courageous IMO given courageous is rarely much more useful than resolute and there are other ways to get immunity to interrupts (rekvu's fractured casque). Plus there are other abilities that give tier 3s cheap, like Pain Block gives 18s robust for 40 focus. It is hard to compare 40 focus to X zeal. Ciphers start with variable focus (generally 100+, so higher initial cost) but can also generate about 50 focus in one attack, so I consider pain block a very cheap cast, similar to 1 zeal. Echoing Shield is Tier 2 but gives a very long duration AOE resolute (30s) for 50 focus, PLUS removes enemy concentration, and is another cast I consider cheap for the effect. Then there are wizard and priest spells which don't directly translate but deleterious alacrity of motion gives swift AND 15% action speed instantly, no recovery, with a healing malus but it is still ridiculously good. Champion's Boon gives resolute + tenacious for 30s. The only Tier 3 that is really busted is brilliant which is super rare and you nerfed (energized kinda busted but also quite rare).  

Anyway it isn't the cost you should look at so much as duration per cost. So one could increase duration of effects for GLOH and HOL or reduce cost with similar effect (increasing duration is stronger since you don't get more recovery time from casting twice).

And *I have complained* about Lay on Hands being weak, for whatever that is worth.

Indeed, I remember now. That said, I don't recall anyone else complaning about it for all the years on this forum.

LoH is fine IMHO, but that doesn't prevent from questionning the upgrade indeed.

8 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

But that reasoning is illogical anyway. If the base ability is fine, that doesn't mean the upgrade (or separate ability that is higher up in the tree) is worth taking. There are many examples, do I need to list them?

IMO Hands of Light, GLOH should either extend duration to 20s+ or cost 1 zeal. Alternatively, Hands of Light could give the healing plus resolute for a long duration (25s to 30s IMO). Personally would rather have long duration resolute than short duration courageous. GLOH doesn't translate to tier 2 as well since hardy is much worse than robust while resolute is only slightly worse than courageous. 

There aren't many sources of either robust or courageous so buffing these abilities would make paladins more competitive. 

Well, I have no passion about the current HoL and GLoH values. GLoH healing twice more than LoH + Benefits and costing twice more seemed a good basis.

Anyway, I would like to hear other people opinion about this. For 2 zeals :

- Is 10s Robust on top of LoH OK for the community ?
- Is 15s Courageous on top of LoH OK for the community ?

8 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Divine Immolation provides +20 health per 3 sec to allies in a 2.5 radius from caster. Unlike every other healing spell/ability I can think of, Divine Immolation healing does not scale with +healing items, buffs, might, and power level (you always get 20 per 3s), but the raw damage to self does scale with items, buffs, might, and power level. Seems like both should scale or neither. If you're taking more damage to self to fuel the immolation, it should produce more healing, right? 

Weird. I vaguely remember a display bug for very encapsulated effect. I rember also an issue with PL scaling for encapsulated effect, but no MIG saling sounds extremely surprising. Anyway, I will check this. It is not intentional and does not sound legit.

8 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Eh, what is laterna?

It's a lantern in polish.

It's also what happen when you type "later" with a poorly set auto-correction a mobile phone bought in Poland.

8 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

You're not exactly wrong, but no I'm not *just* thinking about the context of megabosses, but yes megabosses, DLC content and other bosses, splintered reef, even the lowly cave grub fight. I focus on difficult encounters because they're gating, whereas easy encounters are easy. It really doesn't matter how a build performs in easy encounters if it can't handle tougher ones. Granted you can skip the very hardest encounters (the four megabosses), but not the rest. And a build that can handle the toughest content can easily handle the rest, while the inverse is not necessarily true.

SC barbarian is not "bad" it is just worse than multiclassing barbarian. IMO Tier 8+ abilities should be really, really good to offset losing 7 tiers of abilities from another class.

Eh... I think the shouts are very meh for being L9. Lot of enemies have might resistances so you may not even get them dazed, but staggered (if you even hit with barbarian's bad accuracy), the damage is meh (more meh on the dazing one), and they cost 3 ability picks. Any character can put on patinated plate or take fire godlike. If you want to be an armor tank, a barbarian/goldpact knight adds like 8 armor with gilded enmity, stoic steel, and exalted endurance, and all you lose is the questionable tier 8+ abilities. And that's passive, doesn't require you to spam daze to debuff enemies. Blood mage also offers +5 armor plus much more. Retaliation is the only really good L8+ pick IMO, and I agree it's good but pure barbarians suffer in certain areas, mostly lacking +accuracy, hit-to-crit, and armor, and all their +damage and action speed talents are tier 7 or lower, so you can gain more by multiclassing than going SC.

That's my take anyway. I realize not everyone looks at this the same way. 

Honnestly, you're quite unique in your view as far as I remember. SC Barb are usually described as great (in Vanilla as well), mostly because of Tier 9 shout upgrade, and a couple other feat.

Note that they do unexpectedly more damages than their description would make you believe cause they count as intresic Tier 9 (so +16 Acc and + 4 PEN) and scale with PL as if they were Tier 1 (so + 8 Acc, + 2 PEN, +40% multiplicative damages and duration at 9 PL, and more with bonus PL). Even Dazing Shout does ok damages this way (and decrease PEN vs your whole party, something Wiz can't do as well).

Driving Roar is extremely strong, cheap, fast to cast, interrupting. Cannon SC Barb is the most commonly spoken about build. Blood Thirst and Blood Surge complete the picture. 

HoF with dual mortar  is great vs pick packs of foes (such as Splintered Reef).

I guess Dazing Shout + Instruments of Boundless Rage (mostly for fast cast, prone on graze and severe damages vs single foes) could be an alternative, but AoE Daze seems mostly interesting with a party.

 

On a general note, MC are ususally better for long term passive + self buff because of the greater variety they get. So it's no surprise they fit better your playstyle.

SC being better for initial impact because of better abilities (sort of "ultimate") and better PL. Even then, SC should get a couple of great passive (retaliation plays this role here). So ultimately it's about how you value.

 

Other stuff :

- Probably going to set Abjuration to 2 Zeals for what it worths
- Thinking about tweaking Healing Chain to 2m Bounces (so you can better control where it bounces) and buff 10->12 health gain.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Hoo]

41 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Indeed, I remember now. That said, I don't recall anyone else complaning about it for all the years on this forum.

This is probably me. 

I've been using a mod that replaces the current tier 3 with actual upgraded version which requires 1 cost as previous ability.

[Elric Galad]

22 minutes ago, Hoo said:

This is probably me. 

I've been using a mod that replaces the current tier 3 with actual upgraded version which requires 1 cost as previous ability.

I was speaking about regular LoH.

Many people do complain about the pseudo-upgrades.