Bash Mechanic Question

[Mocker22]

Hey guys, just wondering how the bashing shields work. Would you take two-weapon style because it counts as an off-hand weapon or no?

[coralzombie]

You benefit from Two-Weapon style and weapon and shield style. You can take both if you choose. 

 

Shameless plug:  My mod adds 3 new shields each with the Shield Bash ability.

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, coralzombie said:

You benefit from Two-Weapon style and weapon and shield style. You can take both if you choose. 

One important thing to note about Bash Shield is that they are BAD (except Tuotilo's Palm).

The reasons are that :
- they don't benefit from weapon quality enchant, so their damages, accuracy and PEN are ultimately very bad as endgame weapons.
- Since 1/2 of your attack are made with the bashing shield, it will actually lower your DPS even with the speed increase from Dual Wielding !  

Tuotilo's Palm is the exception because it benefits from Transcendant Suffering or Monastic Unarmed Training.
Weapon + Tuotilo's Palm DPS is around half way between Sword and Board style and Dual Wielding.
That's the only bashing option to consider with the unmodded game.

Magran's Blessing and Best Defense are not worth considering IMHO.

Quote

Shameless plug:  My mod adds 3 new shields each with the Shield Bash ability.

Shameless plug to your Shameless plug : yesterday, I've tweaked Magran's Blessing and Best Defense so their DPS would be around the same as Tutotilo's Palm.

For Best Defense, I've added +16 Accuray to its roll, and attack is now 11-15 base damages with 11 PEN. 
+16 Acc ad 11 PEN are because it's supposed to be a legendary item.
To calculate "11-15" damages, I've taken the damage of a medium attack speed 1-handed, I've applied the same damage reduction factor as Tutotilo's Palm compared to Monk Fist  (x 0.55)
Then to compensate for the absence of +60% damages bonus from a legendary weapon, I've multiplied the result by 1.5 (not 1.6 because base damage increase are better than additive % damages).

For Magran's Shield, I've added +8Accuray to its roll, and attack is now 11-15 base damages with 9PEN because it's supposed to be only exceptionnal.
Since you can't upgrade it, I've let the same damage as legendary Best Defense.
I've also added Fire Keyword to the attack so it can benefit from Scion of Flame and Ring of focused flame. That's a way to compensate the absence of upgradable quality.

But Maybe you can do something cleaner since you have better knowledge than me about Items. Have a look at the files if you want.

Also I've tweaked Magran's Blessing Passive shield to +10 Accuracy and 10 PEN since it's a passive and contrary to Flame Shield abilities, it does not scale with level and was stuck at 7 PEN.

That's the only magical items I've modded because I think the way Bash Shield works is bad and tweaking it increases build possibilities.

gn.items.magran_blessing.gamedatabundle gn.items.best_defense.gamedatabundle

Edited May 3, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Haplok]

Doesn't Magran's Shield have a potentially useful enchantment that can dispel enemy buffs? 

[Boeroer]

Yes, it's good for that (and the FIre Shield) but in general not good for your damage output at a certain level/advancement. So, bashing shields are only bad because they don't scale their offensive stats properly (except Tuotilo's Palm). Would they scale they would be pretty good (again, in general). 

BUT: if you use primary attacks mostly (like Clear Out, Soul Annihilation, Force of Anguish, Knockdown and so on) they can be really good. Because you are executing those attacks with the main hand anyway but still gain the recovery bonus of Two Handed Style and the defense bonus of Weapoin & Shield Style. In this case they raise your damage output significantly while making you more sturdy. Especially Soul Annihilation and Force of Anguish are good cases because they have unlimited uses due to resource regain.

Same if you are using a ranged weapon (pistol, blunderbuss, scepter or wand) with a bashing shield (and mostly attack from afar). Weird setup but better than just a melee weapon if you only want to attack with the main hand (e.g. to maximize procs from unique weapons).

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Haplok said:

Doesn't Magran's Shield have a potentially useful enchantment that can dispel enemy buffs? 

Go with the Broom instead.

Too much a headache to use this shield even if I agree there's niche build that can work with them as Boeroer says. But you're constantly under the threat of underperformong f you don't micromanage

[Boeroer]

A few occasional suboptimal bashes won't ruin your playthrough.

If you want to use weapon and shield and use primary attacks often then bashing shields are a good pick. 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

22 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

A few occasional suboptimal bashes won't run your playthrough.
 

I'm game-mechanics-sensitive.

This mechanic is not pure.

It will ruin my playthrough.

[coralzombie]

7 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

One important thing to note about Bash Shield is that they are BAD (except Tuotilo's Palm).

The reasons are that :
- they don't benefit from weapon quality enchant, so their damages, accuracy and PEN are ultimately very bad as endgame weapons.
- Since 1/2 of your attack are made with the bashing shield, it will actually lower your DPS even with the speed increase from Dual Wielding !  

Tuotilo's Palm is the exception because it benefits from Transcendant Suffering or Monastic Unarmed Training.
Weapon + Tuotilo's Palm DPS is around half way between Sword and Board style and Dual Wielding.
That's the only bashing option to consider with the unmodded game.

Magran's Blessing and Best Defense are not worth considering IMHO.

Shameless plug to your Shameless plug : yesterday, I've tweaked Magran's Blessing and Best Defense so their DPS would be around the same as Tutotilo's Palm.

For Best Defense, I've added +16 Accuray to its roll, and attack is now 11-15 base damages with 11 PEN. 
+16 Acc ad 11 PEN are because it's supposed to be a legendary item.
To calculate "11-15" damages, I've taken the damage of a medium attack speed 1-handed, I've applied the same damage reduction factor as Tutotilo's Palm compared to Monk Fist  (x 0.55)
Then to compensate for the absence of +60% damages bonus from a legendary weapon, I've multiplied the result by 1.5 (not 1.6 because base damage increase are better than additive % damages).

For Magran's Shield, I've added +8Accuray to its roll, and attack is now 11-15 base damages with 9PEN because it's supposed to be only exceptionnal.
Since you can't upgrade it, I've let the same damage as legendary Best Defense.
I've also added Fire Keyword to the attack so it can benefit from Scion of Flame and Ring of focused flame. That's a way to compensate the absence of upgradable quality.

But Maybe you can do something cleaner since you have better knowledge than me about Items. Have a look at the files if you want.

Also I've tweaked Magran's Blessing Passive shield to +10 Accuracy and 10 PEN since it's a passive and contrary to Flame Shield abilities, it does not scale with level and was stuck at 7 PEN.

That's the only magical items I've modded because I think the way Bash Shield works is bad and tweaking it increases build possibilities.

gn.items.magran_blessing.gamedatabundle 1.33 kB · 0 downloads gn.items.best_defense.gamedatabundle 819 B · 0 downloads

 Actually after looking through everything, I only have one shield currently that counts as a off-hand weapon.  The others simply add an ability called "shield bash" that damages / pushes / stuns and enemy once per encounter and I didn't consider that the "bashing shield" feature doesn't scale which really sucks.

 

That being said after looking at what you did I think you handled it correct and especially for Best Defense. I don't see a cleaner way to do it.  Very Nice.

 If it wasn't already a Legendary Shield  and instead a "Fine Shield" it would  need a new separate attack written for each enchantment level from Fine to Legendary  with corresponding Acc and Pen values.  

 

I am going to take what you did here and apply it to the large shield I am making,  making it legendary by default, with equal  Pen  but a lower Acc value than you have used as the shield is a large model and has a few abilities already I need to consider.  This way I don't have to write in 4 to 5 separate attack levels.

 

Thank you! and looking forward to using your MOD!

 

 

[coralzombie]

6 hours ago, Boeroer said:

A few occasional suboptimal bashes won't ruin your playthrough.

If you want to use weapon and shield and use primary attacks often then bashing shields are a good pick. 

    Creating a bashing Large Shield for a tank equipped with a spear is what I am trying to accomplish so the bashing effect will be less than what Eric Galad is implementing on Best Defense and not like what Tuotilo's Palm can do in the hands of a monk but it will be better than what the game affords the player by default.   I like what he did to scale it up, seems appropriate.

 

Possibly will create a additional medium or small shield that has %/crit to  regenerate a class resource  with the shield or something for Priest / Chanter or even Cipher so even if it is sub-optimal it still has value and appeal to be used.

 

As always I am open to suggestions and will build on request if the item is within my ability to create.

Edited May 3, 2020 by coralzombie

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, coralzombie said:

 That being said after looking at what you did I think you handled it correct and especially for Best Defense. I don't see a cleaner way to do it.  Very Nice.

Yeah Magran's blessing was tricky, not only because it is exceptionnal but also because you can get it so early and for free. If not, it ould have been an exceptionnal shield with a "legendary" bash. Fortunately, using the Fire keyword opens the way for itemization, so overall I think it could find its builds.

3 hours ago, coralzombie said:

 If it wasn't already a Legendary Shield  and instead a "Fine Shield" it would  need a new separate attack written for each enchantment level from Fine to Legendary  with corresponding Acc and Pen values.  

To be honnest, only 2 levels of enchant are really needed, the initial one and the legendary one. You can skip all intermediate state and let just one (expensive) enchantment to unlock the legendary quality. Intermediate levels are not strictly needed.

3 hours ago, coralzombie said:

I am going to take what you did here and apply it to the large shield I am making,  making it legendary by default, with equal  Pen  but a lower Acc value than you have used as the shield is a large model and has a few abilities already I need to consider.  This way I don't have to write in 4 to 5 separate attack levels.

Yeah, Legendary shields are indeed less tricky.

[coralzombie]

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Yeah Magran's blessing was tricky, not only because it is exceptionnal but also because you can get it so early and for free. If not, it ould have been an exceptionnal shield with a "legendary" bash. Fortunately, using the Fire keyword opens the way for itemization, so overall I think it could find its builds.

To be honnest, only 2 levels of enchant are really needed, the initial one and the legendary one. You can skip all intermediate state and let just one (expensive) enchantment to unlock the legendary quality. Intermediate levels are not strictly needed.

Yeah, Legendary shields are indeed less tricky.

KEYWORDS!!!  I really should incorporate a few more into some of my creations.   Maybe the shield I am working with should have a plant keyword piercing retaliation attack so that it pairs with lance of the midwood stag for a druid warrior of the forest type flavor.

[Boeroer]

Or if it puts a plant-tagged effect on an enemy (like Binding Roots, Tanglefoot or such) so that you can make full use of Vion-ceth (unique hatchet). So far only Rangers or Druids (or Xoti) can make good (non-circumstancial) use of it. 

[Haplok]

Still not particularly exciting, IMO. That hatchet was far more interesting before the nerf...

Edited May 4, 2020 by Haplok

[Boeroer]

I don't remember how it was before. Now you can have +30% dmg against targets with Plant status effect (with the enchantment "Wood Bane"), can't you?
This should be nice with a Ranger/something who uses Binding Roots or a Druid/something (tested Binding Roots and it works).
30% is not fantastical but it's a solid bonus.
The rest of the enchantments are very circumstancial but can be quite useful in certain encounters - e.g. with spores of any kind.

[Haplok]

It used to be 30->100% more damage. That was really nice and probably even worth building for.

Now its 20->30% additive damage bonus on a low base damage weapon. Highly situational and usually not worth the bother IMO.

[Kaylon]

The most useful mod on Vion-ceth is the 25% chance to destroy primordials on crits. The +25 defenses vs plant attacks makes it also the ideal weapon against lurkers.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Kaylon

[Boeroer]

Additive dmg bonus: doesn't matter if the weapon has low base dmg as long as it's faster and thus has equal base dps.

Just not so nice for attack abilites that cost non-replenishable resources. 

+30% is not something I would necessarily build around though. Unless I would be using stuff like Binding Roots all the time anyways. Could be a nice tank setup with a Stalker/something: keep enemies near you with Binding Roots and kill them a bit more quickly with 30% bonus. With a bashing shield that applies stuff like Bindnig Roots that could be done even without using any Ranger.

But yeah - +100% was def. more interesting. I understand that it was nerfed - but that much was unreasonable I think. I would have reduced it to 50%, maybe 60% - not less.  

[Boeroer]

Just now, Kaylon said:

The most useful mod on Vion-ceth is the 25% chance to destroy primordials on crits. The +25 defenses vs plant attacks makes it the ideal weapon against lurkers.

Yes, the destroy is cool - but it only works against underleveled foes which is another circumstance.

[draego]

this is such a face palm . the community alerted the devs that in POE 1 bashing was bad and why and they address one part of this issue by allowing it to benefit from two weapon setups and talent then a new issue is introduced with PEN and not fixed lol 

[Elric Galad]

49 minutes ago, draego said:

this is such a face palm . the community alerted the devs that in POE 1 bashing was bad and why and they address one part of this issue by allowing it to benefit from two weapon setups and talent then a new issue is introduced with PEN and not fixed lol 

Even a facebash I would say.

[coralzombie]

7 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Additive dmg bonus: doesn't matter if the weapon has low base dmg as long as it's faster and thus has equal base dps.

Just not so nice for attack abilites that cost non-replenishable resources. 

+30% is not something I would necessarily build around though. Unless I would be using stuff like Binding Roots all the time anyways. Could be a nice tank setup with a Stalker/something: keep enemies near you with Binding Roots and kill them a bit more quickly with 30% bonus. With a bashing shield that applies stuff like Binding Roots that could be done even without using any Ranger.

But yeah - +100% was def. more interesting. I understand that it was nerfed - but that much was unreasonable I think. I would have reduced it to 50%, maybe 60% - not less.  

I think to code this shield out it is going to need a retaliation effect that puts a plant status on the enemy. While a bashing effect would be better over all since it would apply it on the enemy being damaged and not the player I just cannot get the bashing mod to work.  I suspect there is something in a unity3d file somewhere controlling whether the shield is allowed to have the bashing mod or not.    Everything I have tried to get it to work has failed.  The itemmod is attached to the weapon and  the attackmod also but it does not actually attack or show a damage value either.   Thought it might be in the global bundle but could not find anything concrete there either.

Might move this to modding forum but not sure anyone has experience with it.

Edited May 4, 2020 by coralzombie

[Elric Galad]

13 hours ago, coralzombie said:

I think to code this shield out it is going to need a retaliation effect that puts a plant status on the enemy. While a bashing effect would be better over all since it would apply it on the enemy being damaged and not the player I just cannot get the bashing mod to work.  I suspect there is something in a unity3d file somewhere controlling whether the shield is allowed to have the bashing mod or not.    Everything I have tried to get it to work has failed.  The itemmod is attached to the weapon and  the attackmod also but it does not actually attack or show a damage value either.   Thought it might be in the global bundle but could not find anything concrete there either.

Might move this to modding forum but not sure anyone has experience with it.

Bash shield should have been coded as retaliation effects, or % chance proc when attacking to begin with.

That would have avoided this headache about how it affects DPS. 

[Boeroer]

I would have done it in a completely different way (only in hindsight of course): give everybody with a shield a bash-ability (instead of engagement - why does a shield help you to engage somebody in the first place?) that can be used instead of an attack with the main weapon. Could do minor crush damage with lowish PEN but push enemies away on hit. Could be useful to push enemies away from squishies, back into an AoE or whatever. Than it would have scaled like any other offensive ability with PL. Use it or don't. It would not be used in Full Attacks.

Now you can leave it like that but give certain shields that are focused on bashing (or meant to be used offensively) special enchantments that improve or alter that bash. For example The Best Defense would give you a high(er) dmg piercing ability with higher PEN (that scales normally with PL) but it would lose the push. Some other shields could stagger on hit in addition to push - or prone on crit. 

Lots of options, individual control, not much fuss. 

Implementing it as a retaliation effect means you have to get hit. Implementing it as riposte-effect means you have to get missed. Either way you exclude a fair amount of build options then. Making it proc as randon chance effect: meh (in my opinion).

Or: I wouldn't separate shields from weapons at all but allow a smooth transition. I'd give every weapon the same offensive and defensive variables, even ranged ones. Shield: maily points in defensive stats - Quarterstaff: somewhat balanced - crossbow: high offensive stats, maybe negative definsive ones even. Stuff like that. But that's nothig you could mod into Deadfire. The first solution: I guess that would work.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Boeroer

[coralzombie]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I would have done it in a completely different way (only in hindsight of course): give everybody with a shield a bash-ability (instead of engagement - why does a shield help you to engage somebody in the first place?) that can be used instead of an attack with the main weapon. Could do minor crush damage with lowish PEN but push enemies away on hit. Could be useful to push enemies away from squishies, back into an AoE or whatever. Than it would have scaled like any other offensive ability with PL. Use it or don't. It would not be used in Full Attacks.

Now you can leave it like that but give certain shields that are focused on bashing (or meant to be used offensively) special enchantments that improve or alter that bash. For example The Best Defense would give you a high(er) dmg piercing ability with higher PEN (that scales normally with PL) but it would lose the push. Some other shields could stagger on hit in addition to push - or prone on crit. 

Lots of options, individual control, not much fuss. 

Implementing it as a retaliation effect means you have to get hit. Implementing it as riposte-effect means you have to get missed. Either way you exclude a fair amount of build options then. Making it proc as randon chance effect: meh (in my opinion).

Or: I wouldn't separate shields from weapons at all but allow a smooth transition. I'd give every weapon the same offensive and defensive variables, even ranged ones. Shield: maily points in defensive stats - Quarterstaff: somewhat balanced - crossbow: high offensive stats, maybe negative definsive ones even. Stuff like that. But that's nothig you could mod into Deadfire. The first solution: I guess that would work.

Hopefully this evening I can get back to trying  out these ideas  on a shield    something like vile-thorns ( plant keyword pierce attack 3-5 damage to attacker every time the player is hit)  maybe without sickened effect.

Frost / Electricty keyword similar idea on a different shield. 

Perhaps I can make them work when the player hits an enemy with the main hand weapon but the animation would not show the shield being used whether its a hit the enemy or hit the player proc.