Looking for help: Wizard gameplay

[Dyxx]

Hello folks,

I'm currently playing PotD all upscale.

My party consist of:

Cantor, Priest, Witch, Fighter/Rogue and Wizard.

All in all this setup up is very solid and versatile.

My party is at lvl 12 and I don't have much trouble. 

Every member does his job good, but my Wizard(Aloth) feels weak.

He has the vaporous spellbook and everything is fine, but in combat he feels so lackluster.

I pump out his spells, some dmg and some cc. But all in all I have the feeling that Aloth or a Wizard in general is replaceable. I seems to me atm that the whole gameplay would be the same with or without a Wizard and I feels bad about it.

Am I doing something wrong ? 

 

[AeonsLegend]

I think caster wizards come online very very late. I usually just build Aloth as a Fighter/Wizard now. Yes his late game spells are very strong, but I don't like waiting. I think pure Wizard prior to power level V is just a critter. It doesn't really do anything. No damage whatsoever and hardly any decent CC. Other classes are more efficient and effective. This to me, is a major downside to Wizard class. It's just incredibly, incredibly weak until late.  I wanted to play a pure wizard MC, but the fact that I will be inconsequential for a good chunk into the game prevents me from running this.

Even the Monk/Wizard Citzal build is lackluster compared to decent melee builds. When I am done buffing and casting Zitzal my party usually has cleared the encounter already. If I want to run this setup I need to nerf my party to be able to have it be effective :S.

For me if I had to choose now I would pick Fassina (Sorcerer build) over Aloth. Lot's of party buffs and healing and some decent damage spells. She's good at any level. She can replace both the Priest and the Wizard with this build. Leaving you with an open slot to choose.

 

Just to note: I cleared the Menzzago fight in 1-2 minutes without taking any significant damage on upscaled PotD with my Monk/Trickster (assassin distruptor), Aloth: Fighter/Wizard front line unkillable tank with dual wield weapons. Fassina Sorcerer backline healer/buffer and huge AoE damage with scepter/shield (Lethandria's Devotion), Maia Scout for ranged DPS and Ydwin mindstalker ranged dps/support 3rd melee option. This party is pretty much indestructable and has insane AoE cc with double Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage. In most encounters the enemy never even gets to do anything because of the constant AoE Terrify that refreshes every 3 seconds. Buff accuracy you can even Terrify the highest level enemies.

Edited April 3, 2020 by AeonsLegend

[Boeroer]

Low level spells like Chillfog, Slicken, Miasma and Combusting Wounds, Repulsive Visage and so on are so strong, I can't understand how a Wizard can feel weak at any power level. 

Like in PoE (where one of the early complaints were that Wizard are useless while in reality it's one of the strongest classes of PoE) you have to grasp how to best employ a Wizard.

Sure, the late Power Levels are especially awesome for a Wizard, but also in between there are some spells that can completely change the outcome of an encounter. 

For example: if you have several guys with AoE then Binding Web + Pull of Eora is invaluable.  If you have beams, walls and pulsing spells or multiprojectile attacks then Combusting Wounds is very good.

If you want him to be a simple nuker you'd have to make sure he's getting his ACC boosted and also his PEN. But often I find plain old damaging spells to be the least effective choice for a Wizard. Stuff like Fireball sounds and looks cool - but that one-time AoE damage usually is not a game changer. Wall of Draining or Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure on the other hand...

Edited April 3, 2020 by Boeroer

[AeonsLegend]

Chill Fog does paltry damage and the blind effect is made almost pointless if you have a Cipher on the team. in this case Cipher > Wizard.

Slicken harms your front line and it's circumstantial. I really don't like making an entire area a no go zone. If the enemy is ranged and  doesn't prone and my party doesn't have enough ranged dps, then I screwed myself. I don't like that.

Combusting wounds is ok, It does good damage, but not on it's own. You need your party to do the damage and then it triggers. Aloth has bad hit rate with this spell.

Repulsive visage yes is very strong I agree, but it's not an early level spell. It comes at PL III.

Pull of Eora is Friend or Foe as well so I hate it, plus it's a PL IV spell. A level 4 wizard is a critter. It does absolutely nothing that another class cannot do better. It deals no damage, has crappy CC that's mostly friend or foe and becomes useless when out of spells to cast.

I don't remember having any spells as a wizard that could oneshot an enemy at any level below 17. My gripe is that the wizard casts a spell that takes forever to deal some damage, maybe a lot, maybe in AoE and then waits for 4 seconds before it can do this again, while most other classes have dealt a multiplication of the same damage in that time or would have CCed enemies in more ways. The issue is not that the Wizard cannot be strong, the issue is that other classes are stronger until the wizard fully comes online.

Wizard has a lot of versatility and such in terms of spell selection. That is it's strength. but it sacrifices focus for that. It doesn't really excel in anything. Well other than self buffs. I mean people go on about how strong Minoletta's missile salvo is when empowered. Yea it's strong. Very strong. It's also PL IX. You can't claim a class is strong because of a PL IX ability if it's kinda meh for the rest of the game till you get there.

I prefer Druid over Wizard if I hád to choose. I think there's more reliable damage in that kit, plus and great party buffs. And some decent AoE cc. I also prefer Cipher if I hád to choose.

[Dyxx]

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Low level spells like Chillfog, Slicken, Miasma and Combusting Wounds, Repulsive Visage and so on are so strong, I can't understand how a Wizard can feel weak at any power level. 

Like in PoE (where one of the early complaints were that Wizard are useless while in reality it's one of the strongest classes of PoE) you have to grasp how to best employ a Wizard.

Sure, the late Power Levels are especially awesome for a Wizard, but also in between there are some spells that can completely change the outcome of an encounter. 

For example: if you have several guys with AoE then Binding Web + Pull of Eora is invaluable.  If you have beams, walls and pulsing spells or multiprojectile attacks then Combusting Wounds is very good.

If you want him to be a simple nuker you'd have to make sure he's getting his ACC boosted and also his PEN. But often I find plain old damaging spells to be the least effective choice for a Wizard. Stuff like Fireball sounds and looks cool - but that one-time AoE damage usually is not a game changer. Wall of Draining or Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure on the other hand...

Those spells are nice to have that's right and I don't say they are weak ! 

For me it just don't feels that much impactful, maybe because of my party ?

When I'm using my Wizard I usually don't play him as a dd, more as a cc or debuff like.

But often in a fight I give my party orders and those feel important/impactful/right (I don't know how to call it right).

But when it comes to my Wizard hmmm I have to think what would be the best to support my party but often enough I just let Aloth stay in the back and auto attack. Not because I'm dumb but because everything is done by my other party members.

I won't say Wizards are bad cause I know they can be strong but it just feels so unnecessary. Maybe it's just cause my party doesn't need that extra bit of CC/Debuffs ?! I don't know.

I want to let poor Aloth shine but I don't know how.

Maybe I should try more spells or play him in a different direction

 

[AeonsLegend]

If you're looking for damage or party buffs he will never shine. Not until end of the game when it comes to damage. If you're looking for versatility and some cc that requires some positioning and specific party handling then he's your man.

If you're looking for a damage dealing spellcaster you're better off with a Druid or even a Cipher.

[Haplok]

Well, Freezing Pillar is very strong. Granted, that's PL VI. 

[Livegood118]

I'd have to say I find Wizards very strong from the beginning to the end of the game. Really don't agree with some of the sentiment shared in this thread.

Versatility is power. Having the right tool for every situation is incredibly useful.

Great spells that apply almost every good CC affliction in the game for long duration (AoE Daze, Blind, Immobile, Paralyze, Petrify, Terror).

Combusting wounds + Wall of Fire melts anything not resistant / immune to fire from beginning to end.

Mass disruption for any kind of enemy through Slickens and Pull of Eora. 

Infinite Buff extension through draining wall.

Arcane Dampener. 

Biggest nukes in the game. Even low - mid level nukes remain really strong through stacking PLs. 

Make yourself invincible through buffs. Or through invisibility.

Reflect enemy spells.

Extra spells for days through grimoire of vaporous wizardry + rekvu's helm + empower restore skills (gives you 2 skills back when you do it with grimoire of vaporous wizardry). 

Edited April 3, 2020 by Livegood118

[Boeroer]

10 hours ago, AeonsLegend said:

Chill Fog does paltry damage and the blind effect is made almost pointless if you have a Cipher on the team. in this case Cipher > Wizard.

Do you mean that Eyestrike (which only does one hit roll and blinds for 12 secs) is better than than Chillfog (which reapplies a 15 sec Blind every 3 seconds AND deals significant damage (not per pulse, but overall 30-50 base dmg)? 

10 hours ago, AeonsLegend said:

Slicken harms your front line and it's circumstantial. I really don't like making an entire area a no go zone. If the enemy is ranged and  doesn't prone and my party doesn't have enough ranged dps, then I screwed myself. I don't like that.

Don't cast in on you front line I'd say. It's invaluable if you want to shut down enemy casters and ranged units. 

 

10 hours ago, AeonsLegend said:

Pull of Eora is Friend or Foe as well so I hate it, plus it's a PL IV spell. A level 4 wizard is a critter. It does absolutely nothing that another class cannot do better. It deals no damage, has crappy CC that's mostly friend or foe and becomes useless when out of spells to cast.

When combined with something like Binding Web or Mental Binding or any immobilizing effect it will cramp enemies in such a tight space that a) you can hit them all at once with even smallish AoEs and b) they can't reach you. Preferably you'd cast it from stealth after you lured the enemies to one spot with Dazzling Lights. Then shower them with Combusting Wounds + AoEs. I win most bounties way above my level with such an easy approach. Melees just intercept the occasional runner. Nobody's actually doing that much besides the Wizard.  

Level-4 Wizards have several good spells that can make all the difference, e.g. Chillfog + Combusting Wounds.

Regarding all your comments on this it seems you have that problem that I initially brought up: you don't know how to employ a Wizard. 

Your biggest issue is friendly fire. That only shows that your tactics and maybe your whole go-to party setup is not ideal for a Wizard - it doesn't mean that Wizards have no impact in general.

Also players that argue that casting takes too long: if you cast you first spell from stealth it takes no in-encounter casting time. The recovery will be almost 0 then, too (-85% recovery time). That means two impactful spells like Pull of Eora + Binding Web or Slicken in ~4 secs (usually less because Alacrity, DEX and other speed buffs).

Besides that all other casters suffer the same sluggishness, including Cipher, so that's not a thing that can be held against Wizard specifically, especially since Wizards do have a good and rel. early speed buff.

The main problem seems to be that party composition and general tactics are just not suited for a "normal" Wizard. Same reason why some players complain that Chanters are so slow while others think they are great. 

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2020 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

7 hours ago, Dyxx said:

I want to let poor Aloth shine but I don't know how.

I just guess your whole approach isn't Wizard-friendly.

Which is ok. Mine is not Rogue-friendly. I always come up with some nice Rogue or Rogue multiclass - but when it's centered around single target damage it always turns out to underperform due to the nature of my general tactics which often include heavy CC and (friendly-fire) AoE. 

Since you are playing PotD and don't seem to struggle it seems your tactics work well. If they don't blend well with Aloth then maybe it's time to swap him out. 

If your encounters are more fast-paced and maybe less controlled and you need some fast AoE CC + damage I'd add somebody like Mirke as Shadowdancer or SC gunmonk with dual mortars or something: great AoE dps and CC via Stunning Surge and Streetfighter's passive via Powder Burns. 

Edited April 4, 2020 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

It also seems that many players don't really understand the grimoire mechanics which are a great asset. Not only can you achieve an insane pool of spells for every task that may find you - but they let your wizard pick only passives or non-spell abilities (most extreme case) and still have a broad selection of spells at their disposal. Of course this is not as relevant for single class Wizards as it is for multiclass ones since SC Wizards don't have an overabundance of passives to begin with. But still the grimoire mechanic is a big plus compared to Priest and Druid. 

Edited April 4, 2020 by Boeroer

[Dyxx]

6 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I just guess your whole approach isn't Wizard-friendly.

[...]

Since you are playing PotD and don't seem to struggle it seems your tactics work well. If they don't blend well with Aloth then maybe it's time to swap him out. 

If your encounters are more fast-paced and maybe less controlled and you need some fast AoE CC + damage I'd add somebody like Mirke as Shadowdancer or SC gunmonk with dual mortars or something: great AoE dps and CC via Stunning Surge and Streetfighter's passive via Powder Burns. 

Seems like my approach isn't Wizard-friendly but like you said a Wizard has so much spells (with Grimoir switching even more), so I think Wizards must/can fit everywhere. 

That's what I want to achieve cause I like Wizards in general a lot. 

Thank you guys and especially @Boeroer for that much input.

I still learned something new, even after two years of reading here

Boeroer your approach on the bountys is very interesting, almost cheesy. 

At the beginning I used "pull of Eora" and "combusting Wounds" but then I just stopped with it. Maybe I should try it out again.

I didn't know "Chillfog"s pulses trigger "combusting Wounds", I were underwhelmed by "Chillfog", ok the blind is nice to get the ranged enemy's out off position or decrease hit chance of enemy melees but the dmg was so low and its underpenetrating always. 

That's quite some to think about and to try out, sounds promising.

My encounters are very controlled most of the time, last time I played I fought against a group of "two whiteskulled" enemy's and the fights where ok. I lost Aloth...

My Cantor does all the CC I need. The stun Invocation has such a big range and with "DoD" it hits always or crits.

I don't know the this Invocation is legit on ps4, it seems to be too OP but I can't compare to the PC-Version.

Maybe I can take a screenshot from my gameplay or record a fight and post it here.

Thanks to everyone ! Aloth will appreciate !

I will tell if Aloth starts shining. 

Edited April 4, 2020 by Dyxx

[Boeroer]

Yeah - I reckon if you already have a good CC option then Aloth may feel a bit redundant. 

Especially if you have some "preferred" chars whom you invest a bit more micromanagement on and then Aloth is just an addon. Some classes or builds don't work so well if they are supposed to work on their own mostly. 

Concerning Chillfog + Combusting Wounds: it works even better if you cast two Chillfogs over each other. Then you'll have twice the pulses for Combusting Wounds (obviously). Granted: this takes more casting time. In the early levels I try to cast Dazzling Lights to lure (will get refunded because our of combat), then engage with a frontliner or two to keep the enemies where they are while casting Chillfog out of stealth so that the tank(s) are in the foe-only zone. The second Chillfog can follow immediately because of stealth mechanics. Naturally Combusting Wounds then takes some time because of the recovery from casting the second Chillfog.

I cast CW last because of its shorter duration. 

If you have spell shaping then you can adapt to a lot more situations because sometimes there are only few hard enemies and sometimes a ton of trashy ones. 

I find it quite weird that Combusting Wounds works with Chillfog at all - since it's freeze vs. fire - but it does.

Concerning friendly fire: that's why I like tanks with lot of engagement slots, large shield + modal and resistances or immunities. I don't care about Pull of Eora if I'm wearing Upright Captain's Belt or Slicken when I'm wearing Rekvu's Fractured Casque - and so on. Also Adept Evasion is great on a Swashbuckler tank with large shield if you have a Wizard in the party (I often use Edér like that).

[thelee]

On 4/3/2020 at 7:07 AM, AeonsLegend said:

Slicken harms your front line and it's circumstantial. I really don't like making an entire area a no go zone.

oh man, by analogy i just have to quote the old BG2 sorcerers.net spell reference on zone of sweet air: "Stationary area damage is easily turned against your enemies because of your vastly superior tactical insights... Right? Be grateful when someone casts Cloudkill, do not get rid of it."

Slicken is always good. Even if you have troubles with friendly fire AoE, you don't even have to hit your front-line - just toss it at some casters in the back and remove any spellcasting support from your enemies for much of the fight. With spell-shaping, it gets even better, since against bosses (who have a large size) you can shrink the AoE so that it only affects them, even when surrounded by your own party members, with additional +1 PL to boot.

With blood mage or brilliant, honestly one of the most powerful things you can do is just spam Slicken every 6 seconds.

Edited April 4, 2020 by thelee

[AeonsLegend]

12 hours ago, thelee said:

oh man, by analogy i just have to quote the old BG2 sorcerers.net spell reference on zone of sweet air: "Stationary area damage is easily turned against your enemies because of your vastly superior tactical insights... Right? Be grateful when someone casts Cloudkill, do not get rid of it."

Slicken is always good. Even if you have troubles with friendly fire AoE, you don't even have to hit your front-line - just toss it at some casters in the back and remove any spellcasting support from your enemies for much of the fight. With spell-shaping, it gets even better, since against bosses (who have a large size) you can shrink the AoE so that it only affects them, even when surrounded by your own party members, with additional +1 PL to boot.

With blood mage or brilliant, honestly one of the most powerful things you can do is just spam Slicken every 6 seconds.

Problem is I play with about 3 melee's at least because I just love melee. That composition is harmed more by this spell. I know slicken can take out spellcasters, but it is so circumstantial in this game. I rarely have any issue with spellcasters since spells take forever to cast and are countered so easily by base stats.

[Dyxx]

So, I tried your stuff out @Boeroer and it worked well. For the first time Aloth felt really usefull. It wasn't even that much micromanaging if I'm honest.

But on the sad side I found out why I didn't had to use Aloth that much for cc, because on console (PS4) the game us so buggy, really buggy. 

As an example for bugs and why it made cc that much easier:

I play as a Cantor and I use the stun Invocation for hard CC, but Chanters get 2 Phrased back each Chant. 

The most funny part of this is that the time you get your Phrases back are not affected by combat speed. This means if I play at 0,3x Combat speed I get my Phrases filled in the same speed as I'm playing at 1,0x speed. That's hilarious and so I could stun over and over again until I noticed it. Now I feel sad about it...

 

But now as I'm avoiding this Phrase abuse I use good boy Aloth a lot more !

But is personality is annoying...

[Boeroer]

Haha - oh man that is weird stuff. No wonder you thought that Aloth was superfluous.

Under those circumstances I would use more Chanters instead of Wizards, too.

[Dyxx]

I hope stuff like this gets fixed.

There are some more nasty "gamebreaking" bugs around like lay on hands doesn't heal

I'll finish this run with my party and then start a new one after everything gets fixed. Then I can experiment with Wizard multiclass.

I wonder if it would be legit to make a "ultimate" run on PS4 right now

not that I got enough knowledge or time for this but someone may have

[Boeroer]

Isn't there a patch coming out now or what did I read recently?

[Elric Galad]

Tier I to III have a lot of very good spells (Infense Vital Essence, Mirror Image, Spirit Shield) but they are often support or self buff ability. Not the most direct effect on combat.

Funny thing is that low level Wizard has quickly good Tools to play as tank through spirit shield and Mirror Image.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Haplok]

15 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Tier I to III have a lot of very good spells (Infense Vital Essence, Mirror Image, Spirit Shield) but they are often support or self buff ability. Not the most direct effect on combat.

Funny thing is that low level Wizard has quickly good Tools to play as tank through spirit shield and Mirror Image.

 

That's why I love my new Bloodmage (Assasin Spellblade). Sure, you have all these AWESOME buffs, but normally you have so few slots, that before late game you EITHER buff or actively cast offensively. And woe on you should a spell miss and be wasted!

I always loved ciphers, but their mid-game power selection is badly lacking if you don't enjoy charming enemies (other then the best buff/debuff in the game). Admittedly they do rock late game (MC) and the Seeker's Fang rapier is just lovely for them.

Bloodmages combine the best of both worlds: unlimited resources, instant mighty buffs AND a wizard spellbook (plus grimoires). 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Haplok

[Elric Galad]

Bloodmage are great in the early game or if you rely on specific spells or spell Tier. On higher level, Wizard 2 slots per Tier (bar max Tier) + 1 if Empower Point is usually enough for every fight except Megaboss fights. For Megaboss, Blood Mage are great, but penalty to the defenses against blooded is still annoying for the later part of the fights.

Top Tier Subclass but still not strictly superior.

[Haplok]

Yeah, late game and end game he doesn't really shine that much, except against the big ones.

The thing is a lot of the actual game happens before that and it seems to me there is no contest for low to mid levels. Even moreso that most enemies have very distinct strengths and weaknesses - in 2 layers actually: strong/weak save & elements they have strong/weak Armor against.

Which often leads to pretty clear optimal spell choices to solve each encounter... and only the Bloodmage can (almost) freely spam the same, optimal spells again and again, without concern about same spell slots also occupied by buffs he would like to have and, god forbid, possibly missing. Well, there is also Brilliant, but that's tricky to activate (before Cipher PL VII, that is), often gamey and still probably slower and more limiting (as you need to strictly control the slots/resources you expand ion order to keep control over what you're getting back).

Edited April 6, 2020 by Haplok

[Dyxx]

4 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Isn't there a patch coming out now or what did I read recently?

There have been two patches for bug fixes yet

The last one is from last week, but those big somewhat gamebreaking bugs are still around.

All in all the game is excellent and I love it, for me it's a masterpiece !

But those bugs are hard and I reported every single one of them.

I guess it just takes some time before it is nearly bug free

Sometimes it feels like they ported Deadfire 1.0 added the DLCs and start from scratch with bug fixing.

Time will tell.

[Zeraphil]

On 4/3/2020 at 2:08 PM, AeonsLegend said:

For me if I had to choose now I would pick Fassina (Sorcerer build) over Aloth. Lot's of party buffs and healing and some decent damage spells. She's good at any level. She can replace both the Priest and the Wizard with this build. Leaving you with an open slot to choose.

 

Just to note: I cleared the Menzzago fight in 1-2 minutes without taking any significant damage on upscaled PotD with my Monk/Trickster (assassin distruptor), Aloth: Fighter/Wizard front line unkillable tank with dual wield weapons. Fassina Sorcerer backline healer/buffer and huge AoE damage with scepter/shield (Lethandria's Devotion), Maia Scout for ranged DPS and Ydwin mindstalker ranged dps/support 3rd melee option. This party is pretty much indestructable and has insane AoE cc with double Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage. In most encounters the enemy never even gets to do anything because of the constant AoE Terrify that refreshes every 3 seconds. Buff accuracy you can even Terrify the highest level enemies.

Interesting.

How do you build Fassina, when you run her as a Drui/Wizard? I try to make her work since release.....

 

Do you prefer Single or Multiclass Cipher? And do you run Serafen / Ydwin or do you prefer your Watcher as a Cipher?