Politics XXXIV (Politics never changes)

[Malcador]

2 hours ago, Volourn said:

Kinda like the myth that Kanada has 'free' health care.

Is that really all that prevalent ? Surprised if true.  I don't think I've ever heard anyone in my part say it is free as opposed to public. 

[Volourn]

Nazism has started to rear its ugly head in Ontario. YAY. 

[Deadly_Nightshade]

7 hours ago, Malcador said:

Is that really all that prevalent ? Surprised if true.  I don't think I've ever heard anyone in my part say it is free as opposed to public. 

I've heard a fair number of the more extreme leftists in the US claim that Canada has free healthcare for all because they've never actually looked into it.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Deadly_Nightshade

[Malcador]

5 hours ago, Volourn said:

Nazism has started to rear its ugly head in Ontario. YAY. 

What happened?

[injurai]

On 4/3/2020 at 5:51 PM, Raithe said:

So how accurate would you folks say this is?

1. America's stimulus is paid from an immediate inflation of the economy through the FED conjuring 1.5  Trillion benjis

2. Canada's stimulus is also paid off by the sweat of it's people.

Why need a stimulus at all then? It keeps the economy liquid.

How does America / Canada really side with Corporations? All the tax cuts, selective Congressional fundings of contractors, the state of banking regulation and magical evaporation of people's savings.

I'd argue the current inflation which robs people of their past labor is a more acceptable form of financial policy than what happens during the "good" 9-13 years runs between major crises. Just most people don't recognize it's in the good times when they are actually being robbed.

Leave it to those benefited by the neo-lib corporatists to constantly cheerlead for their own neo-lib team as if they are the people's watch dog's. Conservative vs Progressive is just a fight for which elite get to drink from the slush fund for the next 4 years. I believe Athletes or in this case Hollywood composers can have valid opinions, but this cat is dead wrong.

[Volourn]

Ontario police can now demand ID without cause, can arrest (which can lead to murder/violence), and heavy fines (which will likely  be suffered by the poor (you know the people who the gov't supposedly targeted with their cheques).

 

Think of this. The gov't is in the process of releasing 'non violent criminals' because of the disease yet ar enow planning to arrest non violent people and storing them where/ In prisons. The logic makes no sense.

 

Heavy handed Nazism. And, people like lambs will cheer the gov't on. PATHETIC.

[Gromnir]

 

[Skarpen]

55 minutes ago, Volourn said:

Ontario police can now demand ID without cause, can arrest (which can lead to murder/violence), and heavy fines (which will likely  be suffered by the poor (you know the people who the gov't supposedly targeted with their cheques).

Seems like pretty basic stuff. Was Ontario police not able to demand ID, arrest or fine people before? Or am I missing something?

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Trump's predictably bad response - evidently writing a letter is only something you do in literature class?   

[Guard Dog]

Captain Crozier was fired for going to the media. In the military that kind of thing just is not done. If your immediate superior is not acting in the best interests of the country, the men in your command, etc. there is a process to go around him. And around the next level also. It's called Request Mast and it works. I saw it done twice in my service and it worked. But you DO NOT go to the news media and announce to the world (China, Russia, NK, Iran, etc) that 1/7 of our Naval Force Projection and deterrent is in any way compromised. Relieving him of command was not just the right move, it was the ONLY move. 

I'd bet $1k he knew this too. He knew the outcome and did it anyway.  Caps off to him for accepting the consequences and doing what he thought was right. I would not have done the same. I would have used the chain of command. 

There are a number of vets on this board. Manifested, Shady, Gfted, 213374U, Nep, myself, and others. This is true not just of the US military but ANY military. The rules of normal society do not apply. There are rules that MUST be followed that would never be tolerated in the "real world". And by joining you are agreeing to follow them. 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Guard Dog

[Elerond]

According NYT's article Captain Crozier had repeatedly asked his superiors to make speedy action to evacuate the ship and because there was no action made to evacuate the ship he sent letter to 20-30 people in different high positions of government to ask help. Said letter was then leaked to press by somebody who received it. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/us/politics/coronavirus-brett-crozier-theodore-roosevelt.html

[Gfted1]

I didnt click you link, were those 20-30 people in the chain of command?

[Guard Dog]

2 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

I didnt click you link, were those 20-30 people in the chain of command?

They were not. They were congressmen, DOD types. Even if one of them did leak the letter the fact that he went to them is every bit as bad. I know it sounds wrong to some folks but you know as well as I do that is just not done. 

[Elerond]

1 minute ago, Gfted1 said:

I didnt click you link, were those 20-30 people in the chain of command?

It is only mentioned that help from Pentagon by sending letter to 20-30 people

[Gfted1]

6 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

I know it sounds wrong to some folks but you know as well as I do that is just not done. 

I agree but I can understand he was in a tough position. He wanted to protect his crew. But the military absolutely cannot have a breakdown of command, especially on a platform that all by itself is stronger than many countries entire military. What if next time he decides he didnt want launch an offensive because it would put his crew in danger? Pat him on the back, then launch his ass into the ocean from the number 1 catapult.

[Gromnir]

2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

They were not. They were congressmen, DOD types. Even if one of them did leak the letter the fact that he went to them is every bit as bad. I know it sounds wrong to some folks but you know as well as I do that is just not done. 

specifically were not fired for going to the press. has been stated numerous times by navy brass there is no evidence crozier went to the press.

and yeah, he went outside the chain o' command after informing those in the chain o' command produced no results in spite o' a clear and immediate danger to the lives o' his men. the captain knew he would face backlash, likely career ending, for doing what he did. 

rote recital "that is just not done" ignores asking question why the captain felt compelled to do as he did. given the command o' the roosevelt, crozier were clear being groomed for admiralty-- he knew standards and procedures at least as well as gd, no? so why take extraordinary measures?

captain crozier made a choice. weighed his career 'gainst lives o' his men?  fired may be legit, but am thinking somebody in the navy better ask more important why questions.

fact trump is fixated on the paper trail is so missing the point. leaving evidence is what bothered trump. the President is well aware that any verbal communication may be denied and/or spun. clear written evidence makes gaslighting more problematic. *chuckle* 'course given trump previous shenanigans, he can't very well claim he were leaving the matter o' crozier discipline to the navy as the admiralty would be in best position to decide appropriate discipline for going outside the chain o' command. 

oh, and "that is just not done," is not a legal actionable, even in a military court. when the first sailor bodies were being stacked in the roosevelt's freezers, crozier's career woulda' been just as over as justifiable blame woulda' been placed with him as captain. what woulda' been his defense at the inevitable court martial?  crozier took appropriate measures to inform those in his chain o' command and then followed orders? results woulda' been far worse for crozier if he had stayed quiet and just followed orders. 

navy and executive branch is not gonna wanna investigate this. too bad.

HA! Good Fun!

ps as of yesterday, 155 roosevelt sailors has tested positive with less than half the crew being tested. assume 200 actual infected as a low number. what is rate of doubling for a ship such as the roosevelt? in cities such as ny, after social distancing were implemented, rate is 3-4 days. am not an expert, but in cities where social distancing is implemented albeit poorly, doubling rate is 2 days. am thinking we can safe assume best case scenario for roosevelt doubling rate might be 2-3 days, and that is comical optimistic. wait a mere ten days from now woulda' seen +1500 infections and two weeks woulda' been near the entire ship.  wait woulda' resulted in one o' the most notorious disasters in navy history and crozier would be blamed. 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Gromnir

[Volourn]

"Seems like pretty basic stuff. Was Ontario police not able to demand ID, arrest or fine people before? Or am I missing something? "

 

Demanding ID from random people on the street was deemed unconstitutional. Getting fines and jail time for walking down the street has never been legally allowed. Espicially, since they are literally letting prisoners go 'due to the virus' yet here they are planning to throw  bunch of people in jail for walking donw the street not having ID with them. EVIL.

 

As for the army thing, this is why I would never willingly join the army though I would fight to defend my family, friends, and country. The army is defacto a Nazi organization who does not give a **** about its members. It is about power, slavery, and control. They are more worried about the 'chain of command' then what is actually right. So, because of this, they lost clearly someone respected by his soldiers AND they hurt morale. BRILLIANT.

The fact the army is  often above the law (which they laughably are designed to defend) is a joke. (this is not an attack on individual soldiers).

 

 People try to praise the army for 'defending freedom' yet the army (any army) by its very existence is anti freedom.

[Gromnir]

gonna ignore vol wackiness for the moment and make one final observation:

am ok with crozier being relieved of duty.

is not actual conflicting with what we stated 'bove. pending an investigation, captain crozier should be relieved as one o' the few certainties at this point is his mass emailing. however, if anybody is satisfied with crozier removal as the end o' the issue 'cause he done wrong, then am gonna argue forceful in dissent. got an unusual situation with extraordinary measures taken by the captain o' the roosevelt, and at first glance, crozier's actions would appear to have saved sailor lives as well as insuring the near future viability o' the roosevelt.  

HA! Good Fun!

 

[ShadySands]

I'm actually with Gromnir on this one because what do you do when the chain of command isn't working. My opinion would be different if he tried to avoid the consequences of his actions but it sounds like he's taking full responsibility.

Does Canadia require people to carry ID? 

[Gromnir]

1 minute ago, ShadySands said:

I'm actually with Gromnir on this one because what do you do when the chain of command isn't working. My opinion would be different if he tried to avoid the consequences of his actions but it sounds like he's taking full responsibility.

Does Canadia require people to carry ID? 

since 1812 it has been established law that, "no military or civil officer can command an inferior to violate the laws of his country; nor will such command excuse, much less justify the act. can it be for a moment pretended, that the general of an army, or the commander of a ship of war, can order one of his men to commit murder or felony? certainly not."-- the united states v. jones

dereliction o' duty is defined as failure through negligence or obstinacy to perform one’s legal or moral duty to a reasonable expectation. chain o' command and following orders may be evidence o' such dereliction, but ironic, it ain't a defense.

enlisted get some insulation from discipline for following orders which ain't obvious illegitimate, but is nevertheless unlawful or immoral. officers get no such benefit. the nuremberg defense, as it has been called in recent decades, may seem valid to many who have served, but it is actual not a legit defense. crozier couldn't rely on chain of command to insulate him from discipline. crozier would not be able to claim he were following orders if men under his command died unnecessarily.

HA! Good Fun!

[Malcador]

14 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

Does Canadia require people to carry ID? 

https://www.ontario.ca/page/street-checks

Of course, depends on how professional and non-scumbag the cops you are dealing with are.

[Guard Dog]

The most important thing to understand about the military is that it is a machine and you are a cog in it. When objections and protests fall on deaf ears you have two choices. You say "aye aye sir" and keep your mouth shut or you follow your conscience if it is in conflict. But do the latter knowing there will be consequences for more than just you. No one person in any chain of command knows the reasons why orders are given. That is why it is so important that they be followed. A conscious decision not to follow them will always be one made in ignorance to one degree or another. 

Look, the truth is my opinion of the US Military has changed on the long years since I turned my rifle in.  Not about the services themselves. I still find them all admirable and honorable. But about they way they are used by political leadership. I started to see it while i was in but was very fortunate never to be victimized by it. Our motto was "Semper Fidelis" Always Faithful.  I see now that fidelity only runs one way most of the time. Maybe it's not my opinion of the military that has changed so much as the nation it serves. 

In my younger years I was the quintessential "red blooded American" stereotype. USA all the way and all that. The Marines are the perfect place for a man like that. Despite everything I got out of the experience I still think joining the military is about the most unselfish decision a person can make.  Because I believed in "big" things like Country, Religion, Liberty, and Freedom. Now, I don't. Fighting for ideals,  for "big" things like that might seem important but it's actually futile. It's like an ant pushing a mountain. They will take eveything you have to give them, even your very life. They will never give anything back. Even the gravest of sacrifices are honored only for a moment if they are acknowledged at all. Maybe only small things are worth taking up arms for. I'd fight to defend my family such as it is. Two sickly dogs and a pen full of chickens. But they are mine, They depend on me and even love me after a fashion. Your country does not, can not, and never will. Abstractions are not things worth fighting for.  Maybe if I thought that way then I would not have joined the Corps. I don't know. That would have been a shame because i did get a lot out if it. 

Anyway, if you actually read through all that thanks for the indulgence. I get philosophical somewhere between my 2nd & 4th glass. 

[213374U]

Has Crozier actually been disciplined? I read he had been relieved of command. Sea commands are discretionary assignments -- if he went around the CoC, it stands to reason that he'd "lose the confidence" of the Navy to be in command of the Roosevelt. That may have career-ending ramifications, but is he facing actual charges?

Takes guts to throw your career away like that so hats off in that regard, though I'm not sure if it'll serve the intended purpose. If you're going to fall on a grenade, so to speak, make the sacrifice count and all that.

As for randomly asking for IDs, that's the norm here as well (and in most of Europe as far as I know). It's funny because while you can be fined and arrested for refusing, there's jurisprudence that you cannot be charged for not having it on you, because the law can't -or at least doesn't-  require one to have an ID on them at all times. Worst that can happen is you'll have to accompany the cops to the station so your identity can be verified, but you won't actually be under arrest unless you resist. Last time they stopped me they gave me these pissed looks and "recommended" that I don't leave the house without it. I played dumb, but I know better than to give cops lip.

Edited April 5, 2020 by 213374U
cant into grammer

[ShadySands]

As far as I know IDs are not mandatory here in the US which is why I think some people have a hard time understanding why voter ID laws exclude certain segments of the population.

Edited April 5, 2020 by ShadySands
didn't need that

[ShadySands]

57 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

The most important thing to understand about the military is that it is a machine and you are a cog in it. When objections and protests fall on deaf ears you have two choices. You say "aye aye sir" and keep your mouth shut or you follow your conscience if it is in conflict. But do the latter knowing there will be consequences for more than just you. No one person in any chain of command knows the reasons why orders are given. That is why it is so important that they be followed. A conscious decision not to follow them will always be one made in ignorance to one degree or another. 

Sorry for the double post but I had issues editing this into the previous post

I don't really disagree but I think that an O-6 has a different view of things than me as an E-6 and the guy's actions likely preserved the readiness of his ship more than harming it even if it is a bad look. I mean I don't know what the Navy does but a Navy boat is probably more than a floating musical, probably.