Politics XXXIV (Politics never changes)

[Guard Dog]

6 hours ago, Skarpen said:

Also some laws should be in place for financial institutions to not put people in spirals of debt. Don't know about US but we have a few laws that protect from those.

Banks are not kidnapping people and forcing them to sign loan contacts. People go to them and ask them for loans. Any law that limits freely transacted private business is a hard sell here. 

[Hurlshort]

You can declare bankruptcy, or you can find a company that will take a smaller profit from negotiating your debt with the credit card companies. Those are your two option when in a debt spiral.

[Skarpen]

16 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Banks are not kidnapping people and forcing them to sign loan contacts. People go to them and ask them for loans. Any law that limits freely transacted private business is a hard sell here. 

Is it free transaction if one side is purposely deceiving the other or hides the actual costs of contract?

I think not. Law should regulate such things to be illegal. If someone signs a loan that clearly states he has to pay 1000% back then so be it. But if someone sign the loan for 10% interest and it magically becomes 1000% because of some clause or fine print then it should not be allowed.

I'm all for freedom of contracts but lets not legitimize frauds.

[Skarpen]

23 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

You can declare bankruptcy, or you can find a company that will take a smaller profit from negotiating your debt with the credit card companies. Those are your two option when in a debt spiral.

Well from what I see americans are to eager to use credit cards for everything. You guys fo realise there are such thing as debit cards that are limited in spending to what you have physically on your account right?

I have never used a credit card in my life as a simple consumer credit is way better in terms of interest rates if you need quick cash.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Skarpen

[Guard Dog]

22 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

You can declare bankruptcy, or you can find a company that will take a smaller profit from negotiating your debt with the credit card companies. Those are your two option when in a debt spiral.

You can also adjust your spending accordingly. The fist step to getting out of any hole is to stop digging. 

Or, you can do what my first wife's uncle did. He got a Citi Platinum card with a really high limit. They consolidated everything on it, cashed out their savings, sold their house and bought a small RV. They defaulted on the card and fled to Cabo San Lucas and opened a coffee stand. He called it the Jimmy Buffet Debt Settlement Program.

True story! 

[Amentep]

40 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Banks are not kidnapping people and forcing them to sign loan contacts. People go to them and ask them for loans. Any law that limits freely transacted private business is a hard sell here. 

 

18 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

Is it free transaction if one side is purposely deceiving the other or hides the actual costs of contract?

I think not. Law should regulate such things to be illegal. If someone signs a loan that clearly states he has to pay 1000% back then so be it. But if someone sign the loan for 10% interest and it magically becomes 1000% because of some clause or fine print then it should not be allowed.

I'm all for freedom of contracts but lets not legitimize frauds.

There are usury laws that define the legal amount of interest that can be charged on a loan.  In the US this has typically been the jurisdiction of state law, not federal law.

[Skarpen]

7 minutes ago, Amentep said:

 

There are usury laws that define the legal amount of interest that can be charged on a loan.  In the US this has typically been the jurisdiction of state law, not federal law.

We have those to. Also all credits, loans and similar financial products have to inform about actual annual percantage rate. Don't know if I translated it correctly, but it means they have to inform about the actual cost of their product. It really helped with people taking legitimate loans and kicking frauds out of the market.

[Guard Dog]

9 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

We have those to. Also all credits, loans and similar financial products have to inform about actual annual percantage rate. Don't know if I translated it correctly, but it means they have to inform about the actual cost of their product. It really helped with people taking legitimate loans and kicking frauds out of the market.

We have that too. It's called a Truth in Lending Disclosure. When you sign a loan or on monthly credit card statements, etc. there is a break down of exact costs, interest rate, amortization schedule, etc. Basically everything the consumer needs to make an informed decision. We even have a 72 hour right of rescission where you can even back out before the 72 hours is over if you choose to do so. The problem is, especially with the interest only mortgages from a few years ago is folks didn't READ what they were signing. You can't fix that. 

[Skarpen]

1 minute ago, Guard Dog said:

We have that too. It's called a Truth in Lending Disclosure. When you sign a loan or on monthly credit card statements, etc. there is a break down of exact costs, interest rate, amortization schedule, etc. Basically everything the consumer needs to make an informed decision. We even have a 72 hour right of rescission where you can even back out before the 72 hours is over if you choose to do so. The problem is, especially with the interest only mortgages from a few years ago is folks didn't READ what they were signing. You can't fix that. 

That's true. If people have all the information and fully aware sign the contract then it's on them.

[213374U]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

We have that too. It's called a Truth in Lending Disclosure. When you sign a loan or on monthly credit card statements, etc. there is a break down of exact costs, interest rate, amortization schedule, etc. Basically everything the consumer needs to make an informed decision. We even have a 72 hour right of rescission where you can even back out before the 72 hours is over if you choose to do so. The problem is, especially with the interest only mortgages from a few years ago is folks didn't READ what they were signing. You can't fix that. 

So what you're saying is you'd need an education to fully understand the terms of the loan you're getting to... get an education.

[Guard Dog]

11 minutes ago, 213374U said:

So what you're saying is you'd need an education to fully understand the terms of the loan you're getting to... get an education.

We had a saying in the Marine Corps. USMC = U Signed the Motherf'n Contract.

Edit: Besides, if an education is required to know not to sign something you don't understand we're in trouble. And if you do understand it don't be surprised when everything the contract says will happen, happens. v

Edited March 9, 2020 by Guard Dog

[Hurlshort]

I'd assume most people know that it is a bad idea to rack up credit card debt. But for me personally, it usually comes down to a difficult decision. Do I want to allow my daughter to take the expensive dance classes she wants, or do I want to live debt-free? Our budget is already pretty tight simply paying rent, utilities, and groceries.

I like the Cabo San Lucas plan. When the kids are gone, that might be a good choice.

[Gfted1]

11 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

We had a saying in the Marine Corps. USMC = U Signed the Motherf'n Contract.

NAVY = Never Again Volunteer Yourself

[Gromnir]

34 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

We had a saying in the Marine Corps. USMC = U Signed the Motherf'n Contract.

Edit: Besides, if an education is required to know not to sign something you don't understand we're in trouble. And if you do understand it don't be surprised when everything the contract says will happen, happens. v

the number o' "contracts" most people sign every year w/o first getting a lawyer to explain the boilerplate is gonna be in the dozens, whether you realize or not. heck, purchase an iphone involves a contract... not the service but the phone itself. and did you honest read every line o' the terms and conditions for posting on this board when you first registered? you checked the box, yes?

yeah student loans is different in magnitude than your netflix contract, but chances are most folks ask for the loan officer to explain and then take on faith that if the loan were genuine predatory, it wouldn't be legal, right? is literal hundreds o' thousands o' other people signing same document, so how could it be manifest unfair? dumb assumptions? yeah, but such ordinary dumbness literal happens many times every day.  you says we are in trouble if people is doing such? well, guess what? what you describe happens all the time, every day and everywhere in the US, and tech has made even easier as you can do your stoopid on-line 90% o' the time by means o' a box check and an electronic signature.

oh, and am thinking gd much undervalues point and worth o' a liberal arts degree in something otherwise impractical. get a four-year degree, statistic, means you is more likely to be more financial successful in life with more money, a better house and a higher chance o' getting your own kids educated. right or wrong, many employers want you to have a college degree and they is less concerned with what is printed on the diploma as 'posed to simple fact the applicant obtained the degree. keep in mind Gromnir has beat the drum soundly regarding the underutilization o' trade school options and the excessive fixation on college degrees. nevertheless, is a fact that many employers continue to make a college degree a prerequisite for hire. 

*descends from soap box*

HA! Good Fun!

[Amentep]

I can't tell you the number of times I've asked people to read what I was handing them before they signed it and they ignored my pleas and started to sign it right after I handed it to them. 

[Guard Dog]

33 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

the number o' "contracts" most people sign every year w/o first getting a lawyer to explain the boilerplate is gonna be in the dozens, whether you realize or not. heck, purchase an iphone involves a contract... not the service but the phone itself. and did you honest read every line o' the terms and conditions for posting on this board when you first registered? you checked the box, yes?

yeah student loans is different in magnitude than your netflix contract, but chances are most folks ask for the loan officer to explain and then take on faith that if the loan were genuine predatory, it wouldn't be legal, right? is literal hundreds o' thousands o' other people signing same document, so how could it be manifest unfair? dumb assumptions? yeah, but such ordinary dumbness literal happens many times every day.  you says we are in trouble if people is doing such? well, guess what? what you describe happens all the time, every day and everywhere in the US, and tech has made even easier as you can do your stoopid on-line 90% o' the time by means o' a box check and an electronic signature.

oh, and am thinking gd much undervalues point and worth o' a liberal arts degree in something otherwise impractical. get a four-year degree, statistic, means you is more likely to be more financial successful in life with more money, a better house and a higher chance o' getting your own kids educated. right or wrong, many employers want you to have a college degree and they is less concerned with what is printed on the diploma as 'posed to simple fact the applicant obtained the degree. keep in mind Gromnir has beat the drum soundly regarding the underutilization o' trade school options and the excessive fixation on college degrees. nevertheless, is a fact that many employers continue to make a college degree a prerequisite for hire. 

*descends from soap box*

HA! Good Fun!

People sign things they don't read and don't understand. How can this be fixed? I have no suggestions. They are, by definition, adults. Otherwise the contract is already void. 

On the subject of higher education I think an excellent way to lower the costs for students is to eliminate the "liberal arts" aspects of undergrad study. Of the 128 credits I earned for my BSEE about 30 of them, at $78 per credit hour not counting books and misc had nothing to do with my field of study. State Universities should take a page from Trade and Vocational schools on that count. Never happen of course for several reasons. The mistaken notion that a well rounded education is important... in case you get on Jeopardy some day.   Also state universities are in the business of selling credit hours. They won't be happy selling fewer.

[Guard Dog]

1 minute ago, Amentep said:

I can't tell you the number of times I've asked people to read what I was handing them before they signed it and they ignored my pleas and started to sign it right after I handed it to them. 

That's how you end up like this:

[Amentep]

14 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

People sign things they don't read and don't understand. How can this be fixed? I have no suggestions. They are, by definition, adults. Otherwise the contract is already void. 

On the subject of higher education I think an excellent way to lower the costs for students is to eliminate the "liberal arts" aspects of undergrad study. Of the 128 credits I earned for my BSEE about 30 of them, at $78 per credit hour not counting books and misc had nothing to do with my field of study. State Universities should take a page from Trade and Vocational schools on that count. Never happen of course for several reasons. The mistaken notion that a well rounded education is important... in case you get on Jeopardy some day.   Also state universities are in the business of selling credit hours. They won't be happy selling fewer.

So...state universities should stop doing the thing they do well to do a thing they're not equipped to do and which there are already state schools in most states doing?

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

As someone with both a Bachelor's degree and certified by TDLR as a journeyman electrician and a RAIL, that meme is stupid. Working 40 hours a week I am making half of what Robert does (as do most of my similarly qualified peers) and have never meet a Phillipe because most folks I went to school with did so with a career in mind, usually something in business. The problem isn't meme degrees being useless irl, Gromnir has already pointed out how employers care about a degree more than what's on it for many careers, it's that the jobs people get coming out of college aren't paying enough to pay off their debt and live with rents and other expenses necessary to function in modern society.

[Guard Dog]

1 minute ago, Amentep said:

So...state universities should stop doing the thing they do well to do a thing they're not equipped to do and which there are already state schools in most states doing?

 

No, Vo-Tech schools are not equipped to train Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, etc. But spending four months and $400 learning about Pre Renaissance European literature (example) will not make any of those better in their field. And requiring them to do so strikes me as a pointless money grab.

[Amentep]

Ah, I kind of misread what you were saying.

That said, typically a literature course isn't so much about the literature (even though it paradoxically also is for specific majors) but about being able to critically read text, to do research and to begin to form that research into a cognizant form.  That's usually why schools have tonnes of literature courses so that students can choose the literature that they're most likely to read so that the faculty can then work with the student in building the skills they want them to leave the course with.

There are a lot of moves to revise or re-frame the liberal arts program and to find alternative ways to progress students through the learning outcomes (basically courses or course areas are expected to teach students broad skills beyond the course content that would be transferable to other courses or to their out-of-school life) with either less classes before getting to classes oriented to the major, or with more flexibility for the student through the same rough credit hours required for a degree (most accrediting bodies put it around 120 for ba/bs) to tailor classes to their interests.  How to maintain the concept and integrety of a liberal arts education while also assisting students with degree progression, completion and job matching is a big issue in Higher Ed at the moment.

 

[Raithe]

 

Proposed Tennessee Bill threatens librarians with fines or jail time

Well, that's such a great way to go in a democracy.

HB 2721/SB 2896, also known as the Parental Oversight of Public Libraries Act, would establish a five-person review board for every public library in Tennessee. These oversight groups would be separate from library boards and would have the final say over which materials and programs are acceptable for children and teens; libraries would be banned from providing what these boards deem “age-inappropriate sexual material” to minors. Any library defying the oversight group’s restrictions faces the loss of state funding—and its staff could be fined or jailed.

 

[Gfted1]

Just like they do with the sales of tobacco and alcohol to minors. WHEN WILL BIG GOV GET OUT OF OUR LIVES111ONE!!

[BruceVC]

3 hours ago, 213374U said:

So what you're saying is you'd need an education to fully understand the terms of the loan you're getting to... get an education.

Lets not blame the banks for people not taking responsibility for unnecessary credit and not understanding how a loan works, its insulting to the intelligence to the millions of people who do understand these things and use sometimes but pay them off correctly

It would be like not accepting austerity  years ago in the EU zone when you nowadays  see how well a country like...oh I dont know, lets say Spain is doing....oh wait 

 

[Gfted1]

We wont get Yang and now I see Sanders is losing by double digits. Hes the last candidate this cycle that was going to fill up my pockets with free stuff and now it looks like Ima have to keep working. Qq.