Project for a Balance Mod

[Elric Galad]

Hi everyone,

I have just started working on my own mod which will aim at making the game more balanced. The balance between various classes is currently quite good, but most players would agree that there are currently "good" and "bad" abilities.
(Please note that this mod is designed for RtwP. Some of the changes should work for TB but I haven't tested them.)

My main objectives are the following :
- Make most abilities worth including in a build,
- Ensure that Tier VIII and Tier IX are interesting enough to go Single Class,
- Ensure diversity of possible builds for each classes,
- Correct a couple of weird mechanics to make them more consistent with generic rules.

The Community Patch really did a good job toward these objectives. ( https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/335 )  
Therefore, I don't want to override most of what they already did, so I will start from this basis. (there are a couple of changes that I will override though, for various reasons explained in this thread) 

Please note that there would be a couple of nerfs included in the mod. As this is a Single Player game, people may not like this, so I will deliver them in a separate package (some abilities with major rework will also be part of this separate package). These changes are in red below.
As I fear powercreeping, I think the mod would feel more "legit" with these nerfs.

The first part of my mod is about Fighters, Paladins and Chanters.
All the changes below have already been implemented and quickly tested to ensure their technical feasibility. However, I really wished I could get other people opinions before "officially" releasing the mod.

 

A) Fighter

A common problem with Martial Classes is that the raw power per ressource  of their abilities scales poorly. Abilities that cost 2+ more ressources often don't bring that much compared to 1 ressource ones. This is even more true for Tier VIII and Tier IX abilities that are intended to be Single Class specialities, but are often less efficient than low level ones.
The problem is not so relevant for fighters though, so I only had to buff a couple of their abilities.

Inspired Discipline : 
3  Discipline -> 2  Discipline
(this is intended to be a bit of a reward buff for Fighters going Single Class)

Power Strike & Inspired Strike :
4  Discipline -> 3  Discipline
6s Stun -> 8s Stun
6s Staggered -> 8s Staggered
Inspired Discipline 10s Acute & Swift -> 15s (this is intended to be a bit of a reward buff for Fighters going Single Class)

Take the Hit :
4s Recovery -> 0s  Recovery
(A Tier IX ability that only redirect damages feels a bit weak if it also takes time to use)

Into the Fray & Upgrades :
2  Discipline -> 1 Discipline
10 – 14 damages -> 5 – 10 damages
(This is meant to make this ability more focus on the tactical pull part. Damages are tuned down to avoid instant damage spamming)

Mule Kick :
Most upgrades use the PL of the original ability. A PL 3 upgrade of a PL 1 ability used by a PL5 character will for example get a scaling of +4.
There was a glitch that counted Mule Kick as PL3 instead of PL1, so I corrected it for ruleset consistency. This basically gives Mule Kick +2 PL.

 

B) Paladin

According to what I've read, people tend to consider Paladins get most of their goodies at low level. Mid to High level abilities are often mediocre, which is especially bad for Single Class.
I especially find that Commands needed a bit of rework (bar the rez command) : I love the idea of a Paladin yelling its (instacast) commands in the middle of the battleground. However, their high ressource cost (2 zeal) make them not very flexible. That's why I changed them to 1 zeal. I had to tune down a bit their duration as a consequence, but I really think this new version would make them more appealing to use.

Light of Pure Zeal :
5 Zeal -> 4 Zeal

Exorcism :
4 Zeal -> 3 Zeal

Healing Chain (complete rework) :
2 Zeal
Range 5m + 4m Jump
Friendly Target + 50 Bounce (yes, 50)
Heal 10 health per bounce (no reduction per bounce)
Can bounce several time on the same target (0,3s delay)Why I changed this ability :

Spoiler

 

Healing Chain was a pretty uninteresting ability in my opinion. It was basically a Party Heal, with mediocre stats (50 base health, decreasing per bounce, for 3 Zeal). Its stats were far inferior to Light of Pure Zeal, even for cost efficiency, so it felt pretty redundant as well as weak. It doesn't even use the potentially interesting Bounce Mechanic : while many offensive Bounce Spell are extremely efficient against few targets, Healing Chain can't even bounce twice on the same one !

I had the idea to change it into an healing over time effect that works better on a small "group". This version basically heals for 500+ health over around 30s, split between potential targets (equivalent to a 30s Moonlight on 5 targets, which is optimistic since Moonlight is 1,5 base radius. However, Moonlight is Tier II, but here we are speaking about a Tier VIII ability so it's normal if it is a bit better). 

I reduced the jump distance so you can cast it on the front row without wasting heal jumps on your safe backrow (or the contrary if needed). I think this can make positionning more interesting with this spell.

Why so many Bounces ? Because Bounces are randomly choosen between eligible targets. High number of jumps is used to mitigate randomness.

Maximum efficiency is reach when only 2 targets stand together (which also negates random jumps).
The spell doesn't work well with only 1 target though...

 

Hastening Exhortation & Upgrades :
2 Zeal -> 1 Zeal
30s Duration -> 20s

Liberating Exhortation & Upgrades :
2 Zeal -> 1 Zeal
20s Duration -> 10s
(This ability didn't receive a big boost compared to other commands, but hostile effect requiring it rarely needs more than 10s suspension, especially with INT and PL scaling. I think the ability now fits better its main objective)

Reinforcing Exhortation & Upgrades :
2 Zeal -> 1 Zeal
12s Duration -> 10s

Glorious beacon & Upgrades :
3s/4s Cast -> 0,5s/4,5s Cast
1,5m AoE -> 2,5m AoE
8s Duration -> 12s Duration
(unupgraded is now comparable in power with Cipher's Eyestrike, a mere Tier I ability. However, Glorious beacon upgrades are very good)

Sacred immolation & Upgrades :
4 Zeal -> 3 Zeal
32 raw damages per tick -> 20 damages
(I wanted to align the AoE of all Paladins Point Blank abilities. That's why I didn't use the 3,5m radius from Community Patch)

Wrath of the Fives Suns (Pallegina special ability) :
Penetration : 7->12 (tribute to PoE1 DR Bypass)
Penetration properly scale with PL (currently it does not)
Damages : 5-7 -> 5->15 (x5 Projectiles)
EDIT : 2 Zeal -> 1 Zeal
(Yes, it is powerful, but properly not more than the 2x14 AoE heal that Wayfarers gain with their FoD...)

C) Chanter

Chanters don't have many "true" problems. However, there were many weird stuff with their abilities.
For example, a couple of upgrades that cost more than the original ability. IMHO, upgrades should always be strictly better. I really think this is something the devs completely forgot after correcting a few of them, because the only ones left don't really feel that much better than their unupgraded version.
Then, I wanted to boost a bit Single Summons, that felt a bit less appealing than their numerous counterparts, especially Ancient Weapons.
Finally, I wanted to boost their Ressource reloading Invocation to give an alternative to Cipher for replenishing ressource pools. This was also meant to give Single Class Chanter an additional and convincing role.

Oh, and I also implemented a Troubadour Nerf (following a @Boeroer recommandation from a couple of months ago) because the subclass is just too good compared to other ones.

Troubadour :
Brisk Recitation phrase take 4s instead of 3s.

...and Their Screams Reached The Heavens (Wurms Summon upgrade) :
4 Phrases -> 3 Phrases (as unupgraded version)

Set to Their Purpose, They All Knew Their Part :
6 Phrases -> 5 Phrases (as unupgraded version)
(this was justified when it provided Brillant...)

Far from Defeated, His Heart Filled with Joy :
6 Phrases -> 5 Phrases (as unupgraded version)
+3 Phrases -> +2 Phrases
Far from Defeated, His Heart Filled with Joy and Their Companion Braved the Horde Alone are considered Offensive instead of Non-Offensive
(I really thought that this ability was too aligned with Skald style of play and "feeling" to ignore. Therefore, I choosed to boost it for Skald instead of boosting it for other Chanters.)

Drake, Spore and Dragon summons (and their Upgrades) :
25s duration -> 35s

His Hunt for Revenge, Eternal (Ghost summon upgrades) :
25s duration -> 45s

...Each Kill Fed His Fury :
Contrary to the ability it is upgraded from, this ability provides mere +5 stats boost instead of inspirations.
As it seemed really random, I replaced the stat boost by actual Strong, Fit and Steadfast Inspirations.

Boil Their Flesh From Skin to Bone & Upgrade :
Secondary Cones replaced by simple 2,5m radius AoE. This enables the Acid Explosion to be properly centered on the victim.
(Thanks to @thelee Gamefaq, I learned that the secondary Cones originated from the caster instead of from the actual victim. This seems to be because the game isn't able to manage secondary cones (probably because the code can't get the orientation of the cone...))

His Laughter Rang Through the Halls :
8s Daze -> 20s
Interrupt on Hit -> Interrupt on Graze

His Heart Did Fill With the Light of the Dawn :
+1 Ressource -> +2 Ressources
Does not affect the caster anymore.

 

If you want to give it a try, feel free to use the "Beta" files below.
(However please note that all the Ability Descriptions in-game may not have been properly updated and that the current version of the files may conflict with other mods.)

BalancePolishingModBuffs.zip

BalancePolishingModNerfs.zip

How to install :

Spoiler

Download the mods archive.
Open <Pillars of Eternity II>/PillarsOfEternityII_Data/ folder.
Find the /override subfolder. If it's missing - create it.
The correct file path would be: <Pillars of Eternity II>/PillarsOfEternityII_Data/override/
Extract the archive into your override directory, such that you get <Pillars of Eternity II>/PillarsOfEternityII_Data/override/BalancePolishingModBuffs and <Pillars of Eternity II>/PillarsOfEternityII_Data/override/BalancePolishingModNerfs
Launch the game,
Check the mod menu. The files should be loaded after the ones from Community Patch, so they have to be lower on the list,
If you don't want the Nerfs, de-select them from mod menu (or just don't install them).

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Mule Kick: what you said about PL is only true if the upgrade replaces the base ability afaik? Doesn't Mule Kick give you an additional ability and you keep Knockdown?

[Elric Galad]

12 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Mule Kick: what you said about PL is only true if the upgrade replaces the base ability afaik? Doesn't Mule Kick give you an additional ability and you keep Knockdown?

It used to be the case, but not anymore.

I think this is the reason behind this small Glitch : they haven't properly added to Upgraded From tag when they changed it.

[omgFIREBALLS]

I want to make a case for the paladin Lay on Hands upgrades. Originally, they also cost 1 zeal, and I took Greater Lay on Hands everywhere. Since they made it cost 2 zeal, I don't take it at all. I just do not find 8 seconds of Robust being worth paying twice the price. Of course we can't make it cost 1.25 zeal, but I needed to say it...

Something I would really like is if an upgrade could make you ignore recovery and cast LoH. I don't mean cast a LoH with 0 recovery, I mean cast a LoH even though you are in recovery. I would pay 2 zeal for that.

Oh also, Hastening Exhortation is a pale shadow of its Pillars 1 counterpart. Are you sure you need to lower its duration?

Edited January 25, 2020 by omgFIREBALLS

[Boeroer]

The more I look at resource pools and -cost the more I think the game should have used numbers like 10 (ability cost) and 100 (resource pool) instead of 1 and 10. That way you could easily fine-tune the cost of abilities without changing its mechanics at all. Now if you cut the cost in half from 2 to 1 you have to rebalance the whole ability even if it's basically working well.

Of course higher numbers don't look as pretty and would not work with the current UI I guess.

I agree that Greater Lay on Hands doesn't have twice the power of LoH. Except in situation where you desperately want to counter a CON affliction. 

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, omgFIREBALLS said:

I want to make a case for the paladin Lay on Hands upgrades. Originally, they also cost 1 zeal, and I took Greater Lay on Hands everywhere. Since they made it cost 2 zeal, I don't take it at all. I just do not find 8 seconds of Robust being worth paying twice the price. Of course we can't make it cost 1.25 zeal, but I needed to say it...

Something I would really like is if an upgrade could make you ignore recovery and cast LoH. I don't mean cast a LoH with 0 recovery, I mean cast a LoH even though you are in recovery. I would pay 2 zeal for that.

Well, 0 Recovery is a bit quirky to balance. 1 Zeal would be too less.

What can be reasonable is to set Courageous/Robust duration to 12s.

I usually "benchmark" single target 1 ressource instant buff with Disciplined Strikes (GLoH don't add cast time so and cost +1 Zeal so it is in this category).
Disciplined Strikes upgrade provide a Tier 3 Inspiration, last 15s, is Tier 1, isn't part of another ability and add Concentration but is Self Target only so I would say they would feel balanced.

1 hour ago, omgFIREBALLS said:

Oh also, Hastening Exhortation is a pale shadow of its Pillars 1 counterpart. Are you sure you need to lower its duration?

To quote myself from another thread : there's a recurring problem with Tier VII or below abilities that have a Tier VIII or Tier IX upgrade. They have to be good enough for MC, but should not become OP when upgraded. The upgrade itself has to be significant because it costs a High Level ability point. Tricky equation.
Hastening Exho upgrades are neat for 1 Zeal. Nimble is a very poweful tactical tool, and Quick + Strong would fit a backrow DPS character that doesn't have access to these inspiration. I think 20s is strong enough for them, I would even say powerful.

The unupgraded version would still be situationnally useful on said on a Backrow character (especially Cipher and Druid), but you'll have to go Single Class to get the full benefit.

[Elric Galad]

On 1/25/2020 at 8:13 AM, omgFIREBALLS said:

I want to make a case for the paladin Lay on Hands upgrades. Originally, they also cost 1 zeal, and I took Greater Lay on Hands everywhere. Since they made it cost 2 zeal, I don't take it at all. I just do not find 8 seconds of Robust being worth paying twice the price. Of course we can't make it cost 1.25 zeal, but I needed to say it...

 

On 1/25/2020 at 10:24 AM, Elric Galad said:

What can be reasonable is to set Courageous/Robust duration to 12s.

I changed a bit my mind about this. All Tier 3 Inspirations are not equal. Robust sounds really better than Courageous that doesn't upgrade that much compared to Tier 2 Resolve

Finally, I changed Robust from Greater Lay on Hand to 10s. This isn't exactly twice the effect of Lay on Hand due to initial tick and worse PL scaling (Greater Lay on Hand is a Tier III ability), but I think it's good enough considering Robust also comes with AR and CON buff.

Hands of Light is buffed to 15s. It might not be as universally useful, but still good enough if you want to prevent a frontliner from being interrupted. It is still the only ability of the game that does this.

 

Apart for this, I didn't make much changes, but I had to take time to clean up what I previously did. The Mod files are now much lighter, in order to avoid conflict with other mods. I also corrected the description, but in english only... I don't plan to make a multi-languages mod for the moment. Even if I do, I can only do it for French, Spanish, Polish and Russian by my own means.

I had to re-test everything, so I think I will avoid dirty programming next time. It ultimately costs time !

BalancePolishingModBuffs.zip

 

BalancePolishingModNerfs.zip

Edited February 9, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Noqn]

Ciphers

This might be off-topic since single class Ciphers are already insanely gratifying to play, but something needs to be done about Haunting Chains.

It's a spell that fills no purpose; it costs 3x as much Focus as Secret Horrors, which is far more effective at breaking down enemy defenses since late game Ciphers will only target Will and Fortitude, and is an AoE.

If you want to single out a specific enemy from far away, you have Puppet Master, another spell with ⅓ of Haunting Chains' focus cost except a far more potent affliction.
The only scenario where Haunting Chains is better is if you face a big target that's immune to Intellect Afflictions but not Resolve Afflictions... but if a single enemy bothers you that much you might as well just put Disintegration + Stasis on them.

I personally have no clue what to do about it other than decreasing its Power Level (lol). But I think that would cause issues for ongoing playthroughs. It's just such a fundamentally ****ty spell for its power level, anyone got any ideas?

 

Speaking of Ciphers, I noticed Mind Plague and Time Parasite bounces has NoRepeatTargets set to false, which I think is disadventageous since you want to hit as many different targets as possible with affliction spells. Though the current behavior gives you a chance to roll higher on old targets, of course. What's everyone's opinion on this?

[Noqn]

Forgot to write it but this is a great initiative, Elric Galad !

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Noqn said:

Ciphers

This might be off-topic since single class Ciphers are already insanely gratifying to play, but something needs to be done about Haunting Chains.

Classes are already pretty balanced in the original game, and Community Patch already helped a bit too. So now it's about caring about abilities themselves, emphasizes some aspects of the classes that aren't as nice as they could be (such as Paladin's commands). A couple of subclasses also need a little "care" (I already "cared" about Troubadour).

Cipher is not my priority for the reasons you mentionned, but I already have a short list of abilities that I plan to change or buff. Haunting Chain is indeed among them. My current plan :
- Tenuous grasp -> set to 2.0s recovery, to be used as a chep enabler (eat that quick -20 Will).
- Fractured Volition -> Change Weakened for Enfeebled. Enfeebled is a pretty rare Affliction, and I think it would work well as a Single Target Debuff
- Haunting Chain -> Duration 20s to 40s (?). It would be an extremely potent Single Target CC. Note that even a Resolve Resistant boss would suffer from it cause Frightened is very strong debuff on its own. Frightened is also easier to actually use in battle than Charmed.
- Soul Ignition : this one is basically poor man's disintegrate. Probably going to change target defense to Will for variety, and might tweak it for an extremely long DoT with  rather low damages to differentiate with Disintegrate.

EDIT : Oh and I forgot to mention I also plan to tweak Wild Mind to something actually usable.
Basically turning Miscast into foe-only (nice for Witch builds) but greatly reducing its damages.


Not sure Mind Plague or Time Parasite are that much in need of a fix, but it's good to know anyway.

Edited February 9, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

D) Rangers

The main direction of change to Ranger Class were the following :
- Improve their pet support abilities (which doesn't prevent them from feeling slightly redundant, but at least each one is viable on its own)
- Improve Single Class Rangers. Many changes are about reducing the ressource cost of their high Tier ability, but I also wanted to guarantee that pet would always be more an asset than a burden for them. That's why I buffed Bonded Fury for when one wanst a strong pet, and Vengeful Grief for when one doesn't want to care.

 

I also buffed Sharpshooter :
+20% Range with all ranged weapons
I always found that Sharpshooter does get heavy disavantages compared to their specialization, so I wanted to give them some distinctive advantage which isn't merely raw power

 

Hobbling Shot :
Hobbled for 10s->15s (aligned with comparable Rogue Debuff)

 

Heal Companion & Upgrade :
2 Bonds -> 1 Bond
Cast time : 3s/4s -> 0,5s/4,5s
Range 4m -> 10m
Tailored to be comparable to Lay on Hands (slightly longer, can only target pet but has more range and an upgrade that doesn't increase the casting cost)
Note : I didn't follow Community Patch change for this one, because I thought Heal Companion should be more spammable than Revive Companion or Play Dead so it should costs 1 Bond. 

 

Revive Companion & Upgrade :
Revive with 50 health -> 100 health
Vengeful Revival : +20% damage -> +30% (so the upgrade worth it)

 

Deadly Surprise :
+100% damage -> +300% (so the upgrade worth it. It's only 1 attack with low base damages after a 10s of incapacitation so it isn't that much)

 

Bonded Fury :
3 Bonds -> 2 Bonds
Cast time : 0,5s/4s -> 0,5s/0s
(aligned with my version of Inspired Discipline : the buff is stronger, but affect the pet instead of a "full-time" character)

 

Twinned Shot :
2 Bonds -> 1 Bond
(The reason for this is that Accurate Wounding Shot already does similar damages due to lash mechanics and PL scaling plus super high Accuracy. Not to mention it is a full attack. Twinned Shot has an edge with weapons with on-hit effects, but that doesn't deserve 2 Bonds IMHO. Even in this case, it's normal that a Single Class Ranger gets some slightly stronger ability compared to Multi Class)

 

Vengeful Grief :
Duration 15s -> Infinite (note that DEX and MIG affliction still dispell the Inspirations you get)
(Just to be sure that pet is always an asset. This basically makes Single Class Ranger Immune to Bonded Grief)

 

Heart Seeker :
4 Bonds -> 3 Bonds

 

Shadowed Hunters :
3 Bonds -> 2 Bonds

 

Distracting Training :
6s -> 15s
(I initially planned to make it 10s, then I realized the Pet's Intellect is used to determine the actual duration. Base 15s actually results in a ~10s debuff)

 

Feel free to comment anything that feels missing or overpowered.

Updated files : 

BalancePolishingModBuffs.zip

BalancePolishingModNerfs.zip

Edited February 13, 2020 by Elric Galad

[thelee]

On 1/24/2020 at 2:46 PM, Elric Galad said:

Hastening Exhortation & Upgrades :
2 Zeal -> 1 Zeal
30s Duration -> 20s

Liberating Exhortation & Upgrades :
2 Zeal -> 1 Zeal
20s Duration -> 10s
(This ability didn't receive a big boost compared to other commands, but hostile effect requiring it rarely needs more than 10s suspension, especially with INT and PL scaling. I think the ability now fits better its main objective)

these stood out to me as changes i don't particularly like.

to be clear - debuffs don't lose duration while they're suspended, so I don't know what "rarely needs more than 10s suspension" means. In practical terms, the 20s duration makes it actually very good, especially with intellect boost. Priest Suppress Affliction suffers because a base 10s suspension means those dangerous stuns or petrifies come back pretty quickly.

in addition, a 10s duration buff from the upgrades is real wee. maybe that's more appropriate for a 1 zeal ability, but it makes the ability much less interesting IMO

 

edit - holy thread necro batman! sorry i responded to the OP without recognizing the age of the post, so sorry if these are irrelevant critiques.

Edited February 13, 2020 by thelee

[Myrtillo]

4 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

D) Rangers

Shadowed Hunters :
3 Bonds -> 2 Bonds

 

Ok so I've been thinking about this one a lot lately, because I really want to like Shadowed Hunters.

I think there is much better to be done with a pl9 ability, and the only pl9 active melee rangers can use. The thing is, there isn't any real offensive use for invisibility in the ranger's kit, and sure it's good for repositionning and a little healing, but you can always use play dead and evasive roll, getting about the same "get to safety"result with extra damage on top.

I think that to live up to it's name, "shadowed hunters" must have an offensive component, to get the feel of "we stalk, hunting our prey". And something more exciting than +acc, +%dmg or dots, the ranger has plenty in his kit.

My suggestion: Drop cost to 2 bonds, keep the invisibility and healing, and add a 100% graze to hit on the next attack for both the character and the AC.

 

Thoughts ?

 

[Boeroer]

So no Accuracy bonus - but graze to hit? 

I think that's redundant because a decently build Ranger at PL 9 doesn't graze much.

 

 

[Elric Galad]

7 hours ago, Myrtillo said:

Ok so I've been thinking about this one a lot lately, because I really want to like Shadowed Hunters.

I think there is much better to be done with a pl9 ability, and the only pl9 active melee rangers can use. The thing is, there isn't any real offensive use for invisibility in the ranger's kit, and sure it's good for repositionning and a little healing, but you can always use play dead and evasive roll, getting about the same "get to safety"result with extra damage on top.

I think that to live up to it's name, "shadowed hunters" must have an offensive component, to get the feel of "we stalk, hunting our prey". And something more exciting than +acc, +%dmg or dots, the ranger has plenty in his kit.

My suggestion: Drop cost to 2 bonds, keep the invisibility and healing, and add a 100% graze to hit on the next attack for both the character and the AC.

 

Thoughts ?

 

Yeah, I wondered about Shadowed Hunters too, but I went the lazy way. I think 2 Bonds is enough to make the ability "balanced" as a Deluxe panic button that purge everything over time, but it doesn't make it interesting.
It also feels quite redundant with play dead, which is basically an untargetable + full heal, even if it applies only to the pet.

A brainstorm on this one is needed. My opinions :

What shall be kept from current design :
- Appllied to both ranger & Pet
- Invisibility
Everything else can be removed if necessary to balance the ability. If going a more offensive route, I don't mind removing the heal and hostile effects reduction.

What shall be avoided :
- Making it too similar to a Rogue ability. This is vague, but basically it means that it shouldn't be another backstab.

What could be done (open list) :
- Add somehow a bleeding effect, which goes well with Ranger thematic and with the "hunters that follow your blood from the dark while you're getting weaker". But I'm not sure of the details.
- Add a "combo" effect, if ranger and pet Attack the same target from invisibility.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Myrtillo]

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Yeah, I wondered about Shadowed Hunters too, but I went the lazy way. I think 2 Bonds is enough to make the ability "balanced" as a Deluxe panic button that purge everything over time, but it doesn't make it interesting.
It also feels quite redundant with play dead, which is basically an untargetable + full heal, even if it applies only to the pet.

A brainstorm on this one is needed. My opinions :

What shall be kept from current design :
- Appllied to both ranger & Pet
- Invisibility
Everything else can be removed if necessary to balance the ability. If going a more offensive route, I don't mind removing the heal and hostile effects reduction.

What shall be avoided :
- Making it too similar to a Rogue ability. This is vague, but basically it means that it shouldn't be another backstab.

What could be done (open list) :
- Add somehow a bleeding effect, which goes well with Ranger thematic and with the "hunters that follow your blood from the dark while you're getting weaker". But I'm not sure of the details.
- Add a "combo" effect, if ranger and pet Attack the same target from invisibility.

I don't think another dot would be so exciting, ranger have plenty.

And I think the defensive applications should be maintained. I think it would work well as a multi purpose tool to turn a bad situation around: heal, repositioning, debuff reduction, and it's just missing an offensive incentive. Something cool for both characters, that may be combined with takedown combo and other ranger abilities if the player wants to.

Maybe an empower refund like sasha's singing scimitar ? Graze to hit and hit to crit ? (but ranger acc is sky high). Or maybe keep it at 3 bond and refund 1 bond on crit (from ranger or pet so max 2 bonds) if you attack while invisible ?

Edited February 14, 2020 by Myrtillo

[Myrtillo]

7 hours ago, Boeroer said:

So no Accuracy bonus - but graze to hit? 

I think that's redundant because a decently build Ranger at PL 9 doesn't graze much.

 

 

Yeah I specifically wrote this with takedown combo in mind. The AC grazes quite often even with Mark and Stalker link.

And I didn't want it to be a 4th/5th acc buff

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, Myrtillo said:

I don't think another dot would be so exciting, ranger have plenty.

And I think the defensive applications should be maintained. I think it would work well as a multi purpose tool to turn a bad situation around: heal, repositioning, debuff reduction, and it's just missing an offensive incentive. Something cool for both characters, that may be combined with takedown combo and other ranger abilities if the player wants to.

Maybe an empower refund like sasha's singing scimitar ? Graze to hit and hit to crit ? (but ranger acc is sky high). Or maybe keep it at 3 bond and refund 1 bond on crit (from ranger or pet so max 2 bonds) if you attack while invisible ?

Well, rangers only get 2 DoT... But it's true that it is the 2 main attack abilities of melee rangers so...

I don't specifically want to remove heal and purge effects. It is justthat I am suspicious about abilities that try to do too many things at the same time and ends up too unfocused to be good. So if I end up with something convincing, I might consider removing them.

For now, I just got a new Idea : what about an attack bonus (which one is debattable. EDIT : raw damages, as for backstab ?) that increases while invisible, so the attacks from stealth would be more efficient if ranger/pet stayed in the shadows longer. In my opinion, it would fit the "prepared hunters" theme and is quite original. It goes well with the healing over Time effect, so I could keep it.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Elric Galad

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I think something like Assassinate would be fine as it fits the ambush theme of shadowed hunters and works well within the Rangers wheelhouse.

[omgFIREBALLS]

On 2/9/2020 at 4:24 PM, Elric Galad said:

and might tweak it for an extremely long DoT with  rather low damages to differentiate with Disintegrate.

Jussayin': This makes it  a lot like Brand Enemy.

[Elric Galad]

 

30 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

I think something like Assassinate would be fine as it fits the ambush theme of shadowed hunters and works well within the Rangers wheelhouse.

Sure sure, but I don't want to make it work exactly the same way.
That's why I'm suggesting a bonus that grows while ranger/pet is waiting in shadows, preparing themselves and regenerating. Assassins are fast killers, Rangers should be... careful killers ?

24 minutes ago, omgFIREBALLS said:

Jussayin': This makes it  a lot like Brand Enemy.

Yes, but is it that bad ? Brand enemy has an Auto-Hit and inifinite duration that I won't give to Soul Ignition, but Soul Ignition would deal more damages per tick. The 2 won't be abilities from the same class anyway. It's hard to make 100% original abilities from a simple DoT (and it's not really my purpose either : just want to make them "different enough" within a given class)

[omgFIREBALLS]

I just wish they weren't both fire damage, but given the "fantasy" behind the abilities that's pretty hard to get away from

[Elric Galad]

23 hours ago, thelee said:

these stood out to me as changes i don't particularly like.

to be clear - debuffs don't lose duration while they're suspended, so I don't know what "rarely needs more than 10s suspension" means. In practical terms, the 20s duration makes it actually very good, especially with intellect boost. Priest Suppress Affliction suffers because a base 10s suspension means those dangerous stuns or petrifies come back pretty quickly.

in addition, a 10s duration buff from the upgrades is real wee. maybe that's more appropriate for a 1 zeal ability, but it makes the ability much less interesting IMO

Yeah, you're right I probably got confused with what I remind of PoE1 Suspension effect. Thank you for pointing it.

I really really want Commands to cost 1 zeal (except reviving) for maximum flexibility.

The fact that they are nearly instant cast makes casting twice a command with half duration and cost not so significant, but it requires more micromanagement and that the Paladin is available to cast again when the first command ellapse. So, in short I agree with you that 20s/2 Zeal -> 10s/1 Zeal sounds like a small nerf.

I can put it back to 20s or maybe 15s, but then it would compared too favorably to Hastening Command for Multiclassed Paladin. So should I set back Hastening command to 30s too, but then 30s Nimble, or even 30s Strong+Quick for 1 Zeal would feel slightly too strong.

So maybe 15s for Liberating Command & Upgrade ? (1 Zeal)
And also 15s for Hastening command & Upgrade, but adding an extra +15% action speed to Hastening Command too ? (1 Zeal)

EDIT : Or just give Nimble for 15s to Hastening command,
           Nimble + Strong to 1st upgrade
           Swift to 2nd upgrade
Nimble is just fun tactically that I think it would fit Paladin perfectly.

 

Quote

edit - holy thread necro batman! sorry i responded to the OP without recognizing the age of the post, so sorry if these are irrelevant critiques.

Very polite way to tell me that I'm not working fast enough, thx 

More seriously, I always try to state if I change something, but not being able to state it in the original post.
it's a bit annoying that it is not possible to edit old posts, that would be very convenient for this kind of thread.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, omgFIREBALLS said:

I just wish they weren't both fire damage, but given the "fantasy" behind the abilities that's pretty hard to get away from

For sure.

Or maybe I can add a small AoE to soul ignition ? (and balance stats accordingly)

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

8 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

 

Sure sure, but I don't want to make it work exactly the same way.
That's why I'm suggesting a bonus that grows while ranger/pet is waiting in shadows, preparing themselves and regenerating. Assassins are fast killers, Rangers should be... careful killers ?

Well yeah, I think a copycat would be lame and that giving incentive to wait the duration is good. I think both are careful killers, but I the Assassin is setup to fish for a crit while the Ranger using Shadowed Hunters would work with a plain damage bonus and/or something like the effect of Takedown Combo but maybe with reduced defenses instead of bonus damage like the Ranger or companions is opening up the target for the other to hit.