Politics First Contact

[Raithe]

7 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

It's not going to happen. Between Schiff and his antics, the lawyer for the whistleblower and their antics, the closed door hearings that kicked all this off, the partisan preferences that have colored the testimony of those who have already testified, the loose use of words like "resistance" and "coup" before the call to Zelensky even happened, and the media feeding frenzy there is more than enough impropriety for the Senate to hide behind. The fact that Trump actually did what they say he did isn't even relevant now that the waters are so muddy. 

If anyone is going to "get rid" of Trump it's going to have to be the voters. But if the Democrats are stupid enough to nominate Warren or Sanders even that won't likely happen. Sanders is a fanatic and Warren is Hillary Clinton II (personality wise) with no grasp of economics. That won't play well. 

Well, I'm not voting for him. But I'm sure as hall not voting for a Democrat unless Gabbard or Bullock somehow get nominated. 

 

Isn't that kind of how you ended up with Trump in the White House in the first place?

[Gromnir]

3 hours ago, ShadySands said:

They made some dumb comment some time ago and now everything is about that instead of anything of substance. At least on right leaning sites anyways

gd concerns is baffling to us, but it is the narrative being presented at fox and conservative radio outlets. whatever "antics" gd references, they is wholly irrelevant to whether or not the trump admin attempted to block a whistleblower complaint from reaching Congress and the question o' whether the administration were leveraging military aid and presidential meetings to bring about wholly political motivated investigations o' a political rival. 

the whole "closed door hearings" nonsense is utter bs and am not certain how it gets so much mileage. investigations at almost any level is having a level o' secrecy. for chrissakes, could you imagine how stoopid it would be if cops investigating murder had to let their primary suspect see all the information the cops were gathering? even as to investigations o' the chief executive, mueller and starr investigations were not public affairs. the nixon investigation didn't start public. difference in 2019 is 'cause o' desire to move forward fast, Congress is not utilizing a special prosecutor or fbi to do the investigation.

the due process arguments made by trump defenders is utter bs, not only 'cause impeachment ain't a criminal proceeding, but 'cause impeachment is analogous to an indictment, and the investigations which precede the indictment tends to be secret for obvious reasons. due process stuff being raised and echoed by gd is applicable IF there is impeachment. 

the only thing we can see worthy o' criticism thus far insofar as the inquiry is schiff not being honest that the whistleblower had contacted the committee before the IG went public with his concerns 'bout the WH's wholly unlawful attempts to impede the delivery o' a credible and urgent whistleblower complaint to Congress, but even then, the whistleblower complaint has been corroborated by multiple first hand sources. even if schiff authored the complaint himself, o' which there is no evidence and a strong denial from whistleblower's attorney, the complaint itself has already been validated by multiple offers o; testimony from firsthand witnesses. however, schiff were untruthful, and we woulda' thought better o' the process if he recused self. regardless, that singular act o' dishonesty or "alternative facts" by schiff is the only meaningful critique we have for process thus far. 

is just another example o' "read the transcript" t-shirts mentality. facts and reality not matter. conservative narrative ignores reality in favor o' what should be comical transparent gaslighting.

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

gd concerns is baffling to us, but it is the narrative being presented at fox and conservative radio outlets. whatever "antics" gd references, they is wholly irrelevant to whether or not the trump admin attempted to block a whistleblower complaint from reaching Congress and the question o' whether the administration were leveraging military aid and presidential meetings to bring about wholly political motivated investigations o' a political rival. 

the whole "closed door hearings" nonsense is utter bs and am not certain how it gets so much mileage. investigations at almost any level is having a level o' secrecy. for chrissakes, could you imagine how stoopid it would be if cops investigating murder had to let their primary suspect see all the information the cops were gathering? even as to investigations o' the chief executive, mueller and starr investigations were not public affairs. the nixon investigation didn't start public. difference in 2019 is 'cause o' desire to move forward fast, Congress is not utilizing a special prosecutor or fbi to do the investigation.

the due process arguments made by trump defenders is utter bs, not only 'cause impeachment ain't a criminal proceeding, but 'cause impeachment is analogous to an indictment, and the investigations which precede the indictment tends to be secret for obvious reasons. due process stuff being raised and echoed by gd is applicable IF there is impeachment. 

the only thing we can see worthy o' criticism thus far insofar as the inquiry is schiff not being honest that the whistleblower had contacted the committee before the IG went public with his concerns 'bout the WH's wholly unlawful attempts to impede the delivery o' a credible and urgent whistleblower complaint to Congress, but even then, the whistleblower complaint has been corroborated by multiple first hand sources. even if schiff authored the complaint himself, o' which there is no evidence and a strong denial from whistleblower's attorney, the complaint itself has already been validated by multiple offers o; testimony from firsthand witnesses. however, schiff were untruthful, and we woulda' thought better o' the process if he recused self. regardless, that singular act o' dishonesty or "alternative facts" by schiff is the only meaningful critique we have for process thus far. 

is just another example o' "read the transcript" t-shirts mentality. facts and reality not matter. conservative narrative ignores reality in favor o' what should be comical transparent gaslighting.

HA! Good Fun!

I spend almost no time watching cable news. Especially since I don't have DirectTv any more. Or any other service. So what they are talking about with respect to this I don't know. This is just an observation on my part. The Republicans in the Senate do not want to remove him. If they are presented clear evidence unethical and borderline illegal conduct has happened (and hell they have all but admitted he did what he did) then the Senators will have a hard time not removing  him. But if the people upon whose testimony the entire case rests don't have clean hands, if they have a partisan axe to grind, if the democrats like Schiff have behaved poorly (he has) that changes everything. That gives the senate republicans a fig leaf to hide behind. It casts even a small shadow of illegitimacy on the whole mess. It gives them an out and an out the desperately want and they are going to take. And makes the whole exercise pointless.   

But, maybe I just don't know enough about adventures. 

[Guard Dog]

2 hours ago, Raithe said:

 

Isn't that kind of how you ended up with Trump in the White House in the first place?

Voting for the lesser evil only elects evil. My vote is only going to go to people worthy of it. To quote John Quincy Adams "Always vote for principle though you vote alone". 

[Guard Dog]

7 hours ago, Malcador said:

Why not ? Considering what played well last time, never know!

Clinton lost. It didn't play well. 

[Gromnir]

the idea that because the democrats are partisan the impeachment investigation is inherent flawed is bordering on asinine. is irrelevant given the testimony. is red herring. so what if schiff is a democrat? so what if the whistleblower voted democrat? you are buying into the partisan narrative if you think such stuff is at all important. 

that the wh prevented the whistleblower complaint from reaching Congress is NOT a partisan observation-- is a fact. delivery o' military aid and a meeting between the Presidents o' the US and the ukraine being contingent 'pon ukraine investigation o' 2016 election conspiracy theories has been described by multiple trump administration officials and career bureaucrats. again, fact. label facts as somehow partisan and then excuse dismissal o' such facts is one o' the hurdles we, as a nation, need get past if we are gonna put this self-destructive polarization behind us. 

'course the obstruction of justice events (multiple and egregious )and entanglement with the russians stuff from the mueller report were also facts and somehow folks nevertheless described in terms of "witch hunt." 

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Skarpen]

18 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

the idea that because the democrats are partisan the impeachment investigation is inherent flawed

It's not partisan issue. Impeachment investigation is inherently flawed because it's democrats. They are evil and want to enslave people. 

 

[Guard Dog]

31 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

the idea that because the democrats are partisan the impeachment investigation is inherent flawed is bordering on asinine. is irrelevant given the testimony. is red herring. so what if schiff is a democrat? so what if the whistleblower voted democrat? you are buying into the partisan narrative if you think such stuff is at all important. 

that the wh prevented the whistleblower complaint from reaching Congress is NOT a partisan observation-- is a fact. delivery o' military aid and a meeting between the Presidents o' the US and the ukraine being contingent 'pon ukraine investigation o' 2016 election conspiracy theories has been described by multiple trump administration officials and career bureaucrats. again, fact. label facts as somehow partisan and then excuse dismissal o' such facts is one o' the hurdles we, as a nation, need get past if we are gonna put this self-destructive polarization behind us. 

'course the obstruction of justice events (multiple and egregious )and entanglement with the russians stuff from the mueller report were also facts and somehow folks nevertheless described in terms of "witch hunt." 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I agree. The partisan preferences of the actors in the little play do no change what is. But they are going to be used as an excuse not to remove him. You have a majority of in the senate who wants nothing more than to maintain the status quo. Doing so is a lot less uncomfortable when they believe they have a justification to do so. They are going to take this one. If you were hoping for ethical actions in the pursuit of justice and the preservation of the Republic you’ve come to the wrong shop. That is not what the federal government is all about. You might get a taste of that next November. But only if this election does not turn out to be another contest to crown the lesser evil. Not looking good so far.

[Gromnir]

3 hours ago, Skarpen said:

It's not partisan issue. Impeachment investigation is inherently flawed because it's democrats. They are evil and want to enslave people. 

 

funny. no, what you wrote is hardly humorous, but occurred to us the post you made sounded like the typical @HoonDing drive-by, but meaning would be complete reversed in such a case.

HA! Good Fun!

[Bartimaeus]

Yeah, if HoonDing posted that, I'd be having a hoot - instead, I'm not even able to read it until someone else quotes it. What a shame.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Bartimaeus

[Skarpen]

5 hours ago, Gromnir said:

funny. no, what you wrote is hardly humorous, but occurred to us the post you made sounded like the typical @HoonDing drive-by, but meaning would be complete reversed in such a case.

HA! Good Fun!

It's funny because it's true. The thing is no one cares about the facts and truth. Both sides demonizes the other and will stop at nothing to get them no matter what.

[Guard Dog]

Since Michael Bloomberg entered the race, or says he was entering, he and Trump have traded barbs. That in itself is proof US politics is akin to professional wrestling.  The trash talk, rivalries, and a great deal of the actual contest are staged. Bloomberg and Trump have been associates and even friends after a fashion for years. Trump even called Bloomberg for advice a number of times while putting his administration together. According to what Bloomberg told his biographer Elanor Randolph, it's advice Trump hasn't always followed. 

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Guard Dog

[Gromnir]

6 hours ago, Skarpen said:

It's funny because it's true. The thing is no one cares about the facts and truth. Both sides demonizes the other and will stop at nothing to get them no matter what.

first you claim the democrats are "evil and want to enslave people."  nevertheless, you then see a problem in both sides attempting to demonize the other.

...

hoonding does purposeful. you do by accident. funny v. sad.

HA! Good Fun!

[Skarpen]

2 hours ago, Gromnir said:

first you claim the democrats are "evil and want to enslave people."  nevertheless, you then see a problem in both sides attempting to demonize the other.

Did I? Or maybe once again you pulled a Gromnir and missed the point completely.

[Hurlshort]

1 hour ago, Skarpen said:

Did I? Or maybe once again you pulled a Gromnir and missed the point completely.

Pretty sure a few of us missed your point. You demonize democrats to point out how both sides demonize each other? So you are saying you don't believe democrats are evil and want to enslave people? It is hard to track your tone.

[Skarpen]

5 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

Pretty sure a few of us missed your point. You demonize democrats to point out how both sides demonize each other? So you are saying you don't believe democrats are evil and want to enslave people? It is hard to track your tone.

I'm sure it would be easier for some to understand basic figures of speech if they would just drop their biases towards interlocutors.

[ComradeYellow]

Most Democrats are extremely pro-capitalist and big tech-o-philes so enslaving people with their corporate filth may not be too far off the mark.

But then again the far right thinks that Democrats and Communists/Socialists/Greens are the same thing so people like that are a generally a waste of time and oxygen and certainly need to be 1865'd and 1945'd all over again.

[smjjames]

Just now, ComradeMaster said:

Most Democrats are extremely pro-capitalist and big tech-o-philes

So are most Republicans you know. Maybe a little less tech-o-phile though, but I'm sure they'd embrace the tech industry just as hard as the Big AG and fossil fuel industries if it were mostly rural.

Anyways, Trump may release an April transcript of phone call from Zelensky later in the week. Not sure why 'they' (the House, I'm assuming) are requesting it and despite what Trump thinks, if nothing actually happened during the April one, it changes nothing for the one in July. Also, public impeachment hearings start this week on Wednesday.

[ComradeYellow]

I feel bad for Zelensky.  The Ukrainian people voted in anti-war pro-peace Jew who wasn't towing the "Putin/Russia EVAL" line common amongst western elites yet the Ukraine has its own "Deep State" mostly consisting of Neo Nazi filth.

[smjjames]

And I'm sure it's the neo-nazi deep state that made Zelensky do it?

In any case, the impeachment isn't over Trump wanting to enforce the 'Putin/Russia EVAL' line and yeah, Zelensky got sucked into a basically lose-lose situation.

[Zoraptor]

Ukrainian deep state mostly consists of kleptocrat billionaires. Zelensky himself was bankrolled by one who IIRC is also jewish, more or less neutral when it comes to Russia and just wants everything to go back to normal so he can go back to skimming hundreds of millions of dollars per year from his coal mines and port. The whole series of Ukrainian revolutions is just billionaires swapping around the deck chairs of government and who gets to siphon off the most money; whether they're pro Russian or pro West.

The Poroshenko side of the east/ west equation did rather love to use Right Sector/ Azow Brigade/ Banderans against the other, but that was not because they agreed with them or they had much power or appeal but for more or less the same reason Turkey uses jihadis in Syria- they're motivated, no one cares if they get killed off, they're deniable(ish) and can be crushed later if needed or if they go too far, and they hate the other side.

[smjjames]

I thought it was the media mogul who just happens to own the channel that Zelensky's show ran on that had allegedly bankrolled/backed Zelensky, not a coal mogul. Whether that media mogul is jewish or not, I don't know, but it doesn't matter whether they're jewish or not.

Edited November 10, 2019 by smjjames

[Zoraptor]

Yeah, the coal mines is actually Akhmetov rather than Kolomoisky I think. Jewishness is only really relevant in the context that neither would be prone to liking neo nazis.

[BruceVC]

https://fareedzakaria.com/columns/2019/11/7/in-defense-of-mark-zuckerberg

Excellent read about how blaming the likes of Facebook is unfair for much of the divisive and concerning  societal comments and some outcomes we see 

[Hurlshort]

17 hours ago, Skarpen said:

I'm sure it would be easier for some to understand basic figures of speech if they would just drop their biases towards interlocutors.

It is ok to take a step back and try to explain yourself better though. We all have moments when we aren't getting our points across clearly, particularly with the lack of tone on a message board. You've been here talking with us for awhile now and not everything needs to be an argument. I really was hoping you would clarify your stance on demonizing people.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Hurlshot
Changed my tone, no reason to be snippity all the time. :p