Politics: The Undiscovered Country

[Captain Corcoran]

Has anyone done one of those message board polls to find out where this community stands on the candidates?  I find the democratic primary truly interesting this year.  I find the dynamic is yielding a lot of spice, even more than the previous cycle on the Republican side.  Biden is probably the best bet against Trump, but I believe any one of them *could* win, although Sanders and Warren appear less likely to win.  I don't buy for a moment that anything but the most minute fringe will not mobilize against Trump in the general no matter how angry they are at the establishment for putting Biden on the ballot.  In truth, it's not the establishment.  The Democratic electorate isn't nearly as far left as the field would suggest.  Biden is probably the best bet to put up against Trump, but he's a terrible campaigner.  Warren has a lot of baggage, but she'd undoubtedly be the best on the campaign trail.

[smjjames]

I'd say it's way too early to do a poll like that, not everybody would have their choice set in stone at this point, I certainly don't.

[Captain Corcoran]

That's fair enough, but polls aren't meant to limit or confine people.  They're meant to give an idea of the state of being at any particular point in [measure of change].  Where you will end isn't as important as where you are right now.  That said, I do respect the idea that things are too fluid for you to make a definitive statement.  Not that it matters to me.  I'm a Republican.  Trump might be an obnoxious bastard, but I don't see any alternative from my perspective at the moment, so my views on the Democratic primary are more or less academic.  My one and only caveat is that Trump could win this upcoming election.  If the Democrats bring nothing more than Trump-hate, they are far less likely to win.  I made the very same prediction last presidential cycle.

[Zoraptor]

So, Parliament in the UK is getting suspended until after the Brexit deadline, so there's one week of sitting left. Will there be a no confidence vote? Will Liz refuse to suspend parliament? One thing is for sure, lots of heads will be excitedly talking about it on BBC and ITV.

[smjjames]

Wuh? Johnson is seriously going through with that? https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49493632 yeeep.....

i thought some had said it’d be political suicide for Johnson to go through with it, plus it’d throw it right into the Queens lap which is the last thing she’d like to happen. 

And, the Queen accepts the prorogue, why did I think she might put up a fight when she ain't gonna change her ways? *facedesks*

Edited August 28, 2019 by smjjames

[Captain Corcoran]

There's no real reason for Queen Elizabeth to deny the request.  If it weren't for the timing, there would be no controversy.  Yes, it's a nakedly jaded maneuver, but it's the sort of play that politicians make all the time.  It's not extraconstitutional.  It's not even remarkable but for the issue of Brexit.

By approving the suspension, the Queen has chosen a less dangerous path.  Sure, if things completely collapse, history will probably at the very least note her approval and judge her for it.  However, if she denied it and things went down the crapper, she'd be similarly judged.  My guess is that the outrage will be fleeting.  I personally find it astounding that the politicians in Britain (since we can't properly call them statesmen) are attempting to thwart the will of the people.  It was all good when the assumption was that Brexit was going to fail grandly.  Then the bitter tears and screaming at the sky began.

At this point, it's better if the Brits leave the EU.  It's simply less calamitous than if they follow the plebiscite lest they give lie to the very idea of self-rule.

 

EDIT:  Hey, I can post without approval!  That whole waiting for the post to post was weird, but I hold no grudge over it.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Captain Corcoran

[ShadySands]

And Gillibrand is out of the race

[Captain Corcoran]

*shrug*  Dems, inasmuch as they notice her departure, should enjoy a hearty good riddance to Gillibrand.  I'd say they're lucky that she didn't win, but the bulk of the Democratic electorate was never going to be stupid enough  to make her their nominee.  Plus, if she promises to behave, there's still the outside chance one of the other candidates might be foolish enough to make her his or her running mate.  Frankly, being a white woman, she might have some appeal to that block in the general, and that particular block is probably vital to the general election.  I have my doubts she would pull in white women and she certainly wouldn't help any of the candidates in the primary.  Call me a purist, but the nomination should be secured before the candidate announces a running mate.

Sorry about spamming the politics folder.  I'm always willing to discuss politics in real life, but most folks don't want to talk much about it.  It's actually upsetting to a lot of people these days.  Out there, I'm a boor for pushing political discussions.  Here, I'm just another anonymous message board cowboy shooting up the place with bullets that neither wound nor kill.

[Bartimaeus]

Why am I all of a sudden struck by frightful visions of a certain hedgehog of the spellcasting variety...

[Hurlshort]

9 hours ago, Captain Corcoran said:

 

Sorry about spamming the politics folder.  I'm always willing to discuss politics in real life, but most folks don't want to talk much about it.  It's actually upsetting to a lot of people these days.  Out there, I'm a boor for pushing political discussions.  Here, I'm just another anonymous message board cowboy shooting up the place with bullets that neither wound nor kill.

That's kind of the beauty of these forums. I don't recommend talking about this stuff with family, friends, work colleagues unless you have a certain type of relationship. Even with my wife, I tend to exercise as much tact as possible, and I tell her everything. Here we all let loose a bit and that's fine. Sometimes it gets pretty cyclical, but it's still been neat over the last decade watching all of us get older and slowly shift to being old and cantankerous.

[Agiel]

A piece from the Atlantic on Mattis leaving the Trump administration.

 

The Man Who Couldn’t Take It Anymore, by Jeffrey Goldberg.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Agiel

[ShadySands]

4 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

That's kind of the beauty of these forums. I don't recommend talking about this stuff with family, friends, work colleagues unless you have a certain type of relationship. Even with my wife, I tend to exercise as much tact as possible, and I tell her everything. Here we all let loose a bit and that's fine. Sometimes it gets pretty cyclical, but it's still been neat over the last decade watching all of us get older and slowly shift to being old and cantankerous.

It's also great because if I don't want to hear about politics then I can just skip the politics thread. Or if it's a poster who's opinion is sure to annoy and frustrate then I can just skip their post

In other news, finger guns are illegal?

Edited August 29, 2019 by ShadySands

[Gromnir]

18 minutes ago, Agiel said:

The Man Who Couldn’t Take It Anymore, by Jeffrey Goldberg.

am suspecting we need wait for the end of the trump Presidency to get a full accounting from mattis and mcmaster. both has expressed views 'bout their duty to not undermine the current commander in chief, which is complete different from there being a duty to remain silent 'bout trump. 

not that a full accounting from mattis and mcmaster today would bring 'bout any meaningful change. tillerson warnings and observations has fallen on the collective deaf ears o' trump loyalists, so am doubtful the generals speaking truth would change hearts and minds.

HA! Good Fun!

[Captain Corcoran]

6 hours ago, Gromnir said:

not that a full accounting from mattis and mcmaster today would bring 'bout any meaningful change. tillerson warnings and observations has fallen on the collective deaf ears o' trump loyalists, so am doubtful the generals speaking truth would change hearts and minds.

HA! Good Fun!

EDIT:  tl;dr I'm a great guy and you should vote for me!

When I first saw one of your posts, I was confused by the syntax, but the ideas seemed cogent.  I guess that doesn't really matter, but it made me reluctant to enter a discussion.  I guess I got over that.  Anyhow, I want to take a bite at this statement.  Not with angry fingers, mind you.  I don't dispute that Donald Trump loyalists would forgive just about everything at this point.  I am just one such loyalist, but perhaps in a way that people don't typically mean.  Some see loyalists as people who will defend everything the president does.  These can range from, "He did it on purpose because he's a genius tactician and it's all part of a grand plan;" to "He did it on purpose because he's the most morally fit president we've ever had;" to "He didn't actually do that [thing which he's on tape doing]."  There are other loyalists, a group in which I must be a member.  At first, when the 2016 primaries were underway, I had my own choice.  He completely imploded.  My next choice likewise strapped on the suicide vest and went after our ginger haired friend.  I had serious doubts about Trump.  I remain unsure of his methods, motives, and mental status.  Sometimes I honestly do feel like he's a kind of evil genius.  Other times, I'm convinced that he's nothing more than a capricious blowhard.  The reality is, whatever he is, we've hitched our wagon to him.  ...And there's more at stake than the name of the president for the next four years.  It's not even about policy, although the Democratic policy positions are absolutely bone-chillingly awful.  It's about the idea of whether or not the woke left can destroy all opponents using nothing more than hate.  Here's the short answer:  they can't.  The movement will eventually butt up against growing resistance.  People who make claims about changing demographics and the inevitability of where things will go based on the previous 200 years haven't been paying attention to the past few thousand.  So, if I believe that, why would I continue to support someone so disturbing as Trump?  In my mind, Trump is about the most odious candidate we can put forward.  He's got a history of unsavory things which no rational person can honestly defend.  Absent his own statements, his presidency has not been bad, but that doesn't matter.  He's a toad.  The left is throwing everything at Trump they can.  Ironically, their hate is far more profound and enduring than his.  Trump is like Pan.  He's random and whimsical, wild and mad-eyed.  The left is determined and desperate with a hate that burns both hot and cold.  If Trump should prevail, we'll have four more years of his evil genius/random capriciousness (take your pick).  If the left prevails, it will embolden the woke left.  Hey, I'm a conservative.  If my side ends up losing, I'll just go into the woodwork while living my life.  If the leftists win, they will turn on each other with a vengeance.  Useful leftists out there should keep in mind what's going to happen when they've outlived their usefulness.  Then after they've completely mucked things up, we'll eventually have a return to sanity.  Not Trump's sanity, but a moderation.  Whatever another four years of the current administration would mean to me personally, it would be the best thing for a longer-term rational leftist agenda.  I, of course, mean no malice.

I appreciate your thoughts, Hurlshot, but I actually get along with political opponents pretty well.  Partly because I'm not a politician.  Partly because I try my best to be generous and charitable.  Partly because I genuinely believe that being wrong doesn't equate to being evil.  That said, I'd rather discuss the Democratic primary than Trump or the Republicans.  That's where things are more interesting at the moment.

...But what the hell do I know?  I'm still trying to figure out which candidate is a spellcasting hedgehog.  :wry grin:

To be candid, I thought this place would be busier with the upcoming release of the Outer Worlds, but it seems kind of slow here.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Captain Corcoran

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

22 hours ago, ShadySands said:

And Gillibrand is out of the race

Who?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

20 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Why am I all of a sudden struck by frightful visions of a certain hedgehog of the spellcasting variety...

At this point I can barely differentiate between the trolls that have graced this forum. 

[213374U]

26 minutes ago, Captain Corcoran said:

To be candid, I thought this place would be busier with the upcoming release of the Outer Worlds, but it seems kind of slow here.

I kind of like it that way. If I wanted a more fast-moving and energetic experience I would log on something like Discord, which is where most communities are created and reside nowadays.

Message boards, much like isometric CRPGs, are a niche for a handful of stubborn enthusiasts of outdated things...

[Hurlshort]

It will get suitably inundated by strange new people on release date, and clear out after about a month. Some of us have been here since the dawn of time.

[Captain Corcoran]

1 hour ago, Hurlshot said:

It will get suitably inundated by strange new [trolls], and clear out after about a month.

EDIT:  I edited people to trolls in Hurlshot's post.  I was just being silly, but I don't want anyone to think I did it trying to pretend he actually said troll. Hell, I don't know that he thinks I *am* one.  Still, I've seen people get pretty angry on boards like this and so I don't *really* want to end up trawling folks.

I'm getting subtext that I'm a new breed of troll?  :rueful grin:  I say with all honesty, I have been entirely honest about my views in this discussion.  ...But I *do* have two characteristics of trolls:

1.  I have a thick skin, which is the only way trolls can survive without going crazy.  On the other hand, they often pretend to be angry or hurt, but it becomes clear they're not.

2.  I'm trying to elicit a response.  To be fair, if that makes me a troll, that makes anyone who tries to strike up a conversation a troll.

3.  Something else?  I don't know.

Summation:  I'm probably a troll, but a very patient and friendly one!  I'll even buy everyone a round of brew just to prove no hard feelings!

Edited August 30, 2019 by Captain Corcoran

[Agiel]

8 hours ago, Gromnir said:

 

not that a full accounting from mattis and mcmaster today would bring 'bout any meaningful change. tillerson warnings and observations has fallen on the collective deaf ears o' trump loyalists, so am doubtful the generals speaking truth would change hearts and minds.

HA! Good Fun!

My conclusion is that Mattis and McMaster hold to the maxim that in a democracy "the people get the government they deserve," an outlook that bears a troubling resemblance to a certain malediction oft-attributed to be of Chinese providence "May you live in interesting times." Freedom of choice after all includes the freedom to fail, and I suppose if soybean farmers still vote for Trump in 2020, then evidently they think the prospect of financial ruin is worth having the a president who "fights"... well... black athletes who kneel during the national anthem at NFL games.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Agiel

[Guard Dog]

9 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

It will get suitably inundated by strange new people on release date, and clear out after about a month. Some of us have been here since the dawn of time.

Or at least since the sunset of BIS

[Guard Dog]

11 hours ago, Captain Corcoran said:

EDIT:  tl;dr I'm a great guy and you should vote for me!

When I first saw one of your posts, I was confused by the syntax, but the ideas seemed cogent.  I guess that doesn't really matter, but it made me reluctant to enter a discussion.  I guess I got over that.  Anyhow, I want to take a bite at this statement.  Not with angry fingers, mind you.  I don't dispute that Donald Trump loyalists would forgive just about everything at this point.  I am just one such loyalist, but perhaps in a way that people don't typically mean.  Some see loyalists as people who will defend everything the president does.  These can range from, "He did it on purpose because he's a genius tactician and it's all part of a grand plan;" to "He did it on purpose because he's the most morally fit president we've ever had;" to "He didn't actually do that [thing which he's on tape doing]."  There are other loyalists, a group in which I must be a member.  At first, when the 2016 primaries were underway, I had my own choice.  He completely imploded.  My next choice likewise strapped on the suicide vest and went after our ginger haired friend.  I had serious doubts about Trump.  I remain unsure of his methods, motives, and mental status.  Sometimes I honestly do feel like he's a kind of evil genius.  Other times, I'm convinced that he's nothing more than a capricious blowhard.  The reality is, whatever he is, we've hitched our wagon to him.  ...And there's more at stake than the name of the president for the next four years.  It's not even about policy, although the Democratic policy positions are absolutely bone-chillingly awful.  It's about the idea of whether or not the woke left can destroy all opponents using nothing more than hate.  Here's the short answer:  they can't.  The movement will eventually butt up against growing resistance.  People who make claims about changing demographics and the inevitability of where things will go based on the previous 200 years haven't been paying attention to the past few thousand.  So, if I believe that, why would I continue to support someone so disturbing as Trump?  In my mind, Trump is about the most odious candidate we can put forward.  He's got a history of unsavory things which no rational person can honestly defend.  Absent his own statements, his presidency has not been bad, but that doesn't matter.  He's a toad.  The left is throwing everything at Trump they can.  Ironically, their hate is far more profound and enduring than his.  Trump is like Pan.  He's random and whimsical, wild and mad-eyed.  The left is determined and desperate with a hate that burns both hot and cold.  If Trump should prevail, we'll have four more years of his evil genius/random capriciousness (take your pick).  If the left prevails, it will embolden the woke left.  Hey, I'm a conservative.  If my side ends up losing, I'll just go into the woodwork while living my life.  If the leftists win, they will turn on each other with a vengeance.  Useful leftists out there should keep in mind what's going to happen when they've outlived their usefulness.  Then after they've completely mucked things up, we'll eventually have a return to sanity.  Not Trump's sanity, but a moderation.  Whatever another four years of the current administration would mean to me personally, it would be the best thing for a longer-term rational leftist agenda.  I, of course, mean no malice.

I appreciate your thoughts, Hurlshot, but I actually get along with political opponents pretty well.  Partly because I'm not a politician.  Partly because I try my best to be generous and charitable.  Partly because I genuinely believe that being wrong doesn't equate to being evil.  That said, I'd rather discuss the Democratic primary than Trump or the Republicans.  That's where things are more interesting at the moment.

...But what the hell do I know?  I'm still trying to figure out which candidate is a spellcasting hedgehog.  :wry grin:

To be candid, I thought this place would be busier with the upcoming release of the Outer Worlds, but it seems kind of slow here.

I have one word for you CC: Paragraphs! Jeez that is a wall of text. 

To understand Gromnir you must play Baldur's Gate II, TOB. Just remember Gromnir was Gromnir before Gromnir was Gromnir. Hang around long enough, play that game and that will make sense.

Last it's perfectly logical that hating the Democrats does not mean loving the Republicans. I've been hating them equally since 1996. Voting really has become an exercise in choosing the least appalling candidate. Unless you vote third party. It won't change anything but at least you won't feel like you need to take a shower after voting. 

[Pidesco]

Hey Guard Dog, I don't recall seeing anything by you on the subject, so I'll ask here. How do you see the internal skitstorm that is affecting the NRA of late? They seem to be steadfastly digging their own graves.

[Guard Dog]

18 minutes ago, Pidesco said:

Hey Guard Dog, I don't recall seeing anything by you on the subject, so I'll ask here. How do you see the internal skitstorm that is affecting the NRA of late? They seem to be steafastly digging their own graves.

Big time. Pretty disgusting actually since I'm a lifetime member and have already donated a lot of money. Didn't realize I was paying for posh homes and lavish vacations for NRA bigwigs. Particularly LaPierre who has done far more harm than good for the cause. Well, they have gotten their last dime from me. 

[Hurlshort]

12 hours ago, Captain Corcoran said:

I'm getting subtext that I'm a new breed of troll?  :rueful grin:  I say with all honesty, I have been entirely honest about my views in this discussion.  ...But I *do* have two characteristics of trolls:

 

It's probably just a self defense mechanism we've all built, since we get our share of people using alt accounts and people possibly being paid by the Russians.

I mean, I haven't seen you and Bruce in the same room at the same time, so there is always the chance...