Tuoatilo's Palm

[make]

So, this is seems to be very interesting item and Id like to build a character around it. Tried googling few hours for optimal build, but cant find any. I mainly think of doing solo run and the build should be potd viable.

As a HEMA nerd and sword and buckler lover, i've been thinking of pairing it with sword/sabre/dagger.

 

Any ideas ?

[Wotcha]

It is the best of the bashing shields because it benefits from monk fist scaling, unlike the other bashing shields which I believe do not scale at all.  This makes for a punishing loss of both accuracy, damage, and most importantly, Penetration, by the endgame for the other shields.

However, there are some caveats:

1) You still are pinned to either Transcendental Suffering scaling (which is fine for SC monk, but only decent for MC monk), or Monastic Unarmed Training (which is not that great).  So yes, it scales, but probably not as much as you'd like.  If you metagame +PL stuff, you can help beef up your scaling a bit, but that only goes so far, and you'll be sacrificing opportunities to do that.

2) The base damage is very low, so even with scaling it doesn't hit very hard.

So all-in, you benefit from the defensive aspect of the shield (particularly with Weapon and Shield Style), and you benefit from the base dual-wield speedup (and potentially also Two Weapon Style further speedup), but you're losing a lot from your "second weapon" damage being very low.  And you'll be mixing damage types with the weapon types you're wanting to pick, which means that for hard targets, one or the other weapon is likely to have poor penetratation.   

[Jayd]

I did a playthrough with a single class Forbidden Fist using it. The idea was that FF wants max RES, so let's see about making a deflection build with it. FF's health regen on hostile effect expiration is also surprisingly clutch for survivability. Overall the character felt very strong. With all that deflection and Crucible of Suffering constantly active (because FF), he was very hard to hit with any attack. When he got WotW he was doing great damage, too, even though it wasn't as good as other monks can manage because of TP's low base damage. This mixture of offense and defense made him quite satisfying to play. I didn't play solo, though, but I understand SC monk is great for solo. I remember I messed up the Nemnok fight and he was left to solo Nemnok plus a couple minions after the rest of the team died. Took a while (I hadn't planned for it) but he did manage to facetank Nemnok for what must've been 15-20 minutes and whittle him down.

 

And before anyone says anything, Wound generation is NOT a problem on FF. It was easy enough to maintain my wounds throughout the game, and when I got Imagined Pain I had more wounds than I knew what to do with. At that point you can also build for disengagement defense and just run through enemies to build wounds.

[Boeroer]

It's especially good if you 

a) use Transcendent Suffering or Monastic Unarmed Training (which is decent if you stack enough Power Level)

b) fight unarmed (use fist)

c) use a lot of Full Attacks that apply afflictions

d) want to profit from both Weapon and Shield Style and Two Weapon Style (both apply).

That allows for several classes and multiclasses, but I guess the most effective are single class Monk and Monk multiclasses (e.g. Monk/Rogue, Monk/Fighter and so on).

Edited August 12, 2019 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

2 minutes ago, Jayd said:

I did a playthrough with a single class Forbidden Fist using it. The idea was that FF wants max RES, so let's see about making a deflection build with it. FF's health regen on hostile effect expiration is also surprisingly clutch for survivability. Overall the character felt very strong. With all that deflection and Crucible of Suffering constantly active (because FF), he was very hard to hit with any attack. When he got WotW he was doing great damage, too, even though it wasn't as good as other monks can manage because of TP's low base damage. This mixture of offense and defense made him quite satisfying to play. I didn't play solo, though, but I understand SC monk is great for solo. I remember I messed up the Nemnok fight and he was left to solo Nemnok plus a couple minions after the rest of the team died. Took a while (I hadn't planned for it) but he did manage to facetank Nemnok for what must've been 15-20 minutes and whittle him down.

 

And before anyone says anything, Wound generation is NOT a problem on FF. It was easy enough to maintain my wounds throughout the game, and when I got Imagined Pain I had more wounds than I knew what to do with. At that point you can also build for disengagement defense and just run through enemies to build wounds.

SC Forbidden Fist with Imagined Pain is great. Such a nice combo of CC, damage and staying power. 

[Vonbek]

50 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

d) want to profit from both Weapon and Shield Style and Two Weapon Style (both apply).

Might be my game Glitched but I'm not getting it to register it as being a weapon for 2WS.

4 hours ago, make said:

As a HEMA nerd and sword and buckler lover, i've been thinking of pairing it with sword/sabre/dagger.

 

Any ideas ?

Helwalker/Trickster Deflect.

Of all things Gladiator Sword ( for Skrim ) and Tui Shield. Then the early plus def spells from Trickster, any deflect or bonuses, the +def per wound from tui ( balanced Shield ), riposte etc etc etc

Level 8 and no quality enchants done yet, 17 resolve total, Sword and Board style not picked up yet (  concentrated on getting Gouging Strike and Swift Flurry first ), 67 deflect before combat bonuses already, between Sword and Shield all 3 types covered ( slash / pierce / crush )

Edited August 12, 2019 by Vonbek
hadn't noticed something while writing...

[Vonbek]

@Boeroer, any idea if MI and LDI stack? More so I can fine tune this AI for the idea I'm trying which is similar to this

[Boeroer]

No. Mirrored Image and Llengrath's Displaced Image do not stack their deflection buffs.

What does stack with buffs that raise one or two defenses (Mirrored Image, Arcane Veil, Llengrath's DI and so on) are buffs that raise ALL defenses (Vigorous Defense or Llengrath's Safeguard for example). But MI will not stack with LDI or Arcane Veil - and Llengraht's Safeguard will not stack with Vigorous Defense.

Speaking only about active abilites here. Defense buffs from items and passives should always stack. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Boeroer

[make]

2 hours ago, Vonbek said:

Might be my game Glitched but I'm not getting it to register it as being a weapon for 2WS.

Helwalker/Trickster Deflect.

Of all things Gladiator Sword ( for Skrim ) and Tui Shield. Then the early plus def spells from Trickster, any deflect or bonuses, the +def per wound from tui ( balanced Shield ), riposte etc etc etc

Level 8 and no quality enchants done yet, 17 resolve total, Sword and Board style not picked up yet (  concentrated on getting Gouging Strike and Swift Flurry first ), 67 deflect before combat bonuses already, between Sword and Shield all 3 types covered ( slash / pierce / crush )

Wow so much helpful info here. Thank you for everyone. This build sees just what i've been looking.. Anymore tips for starting it?

[Ophiuchus]

I had a lot of fun with a Trickster/Skald (Harbinger) wielding Sasha's Singing Scimitar and the Palm; with Sword and Shield, Two-Weapon Style, and Monastic Unarmed Training. MUT isn't that great as stated above but I used the shield more for its style, crit potential for Invocations, and full attacks, translating to another chance to score a Crippling Strike, interrupt, and concentration removal. Trickster adds some solid defense and utility (free sparkcrackers) while Skald brings stuff that works well with Rogue: weakness, concentration denial, paralyze, AR reduction, etc. It served well as a jack-of-all trades kinda Watcher.

[Vonbek]

17 hours ago, make said:

Wow so much helpful info here. Thank you for everyone. This build sees just what i've been looking.. Anymore tips for starting it?

Just booting up game now.

 

I based it off a build I saw for an Unbroken/Trickster Deflection Riposte Tank I saw, his idea was basically to use Fighter obviously the engagement and passives plus the Strike Buffs and the Trickster for Mirror Image, Gouging Strike etc.

 

Like @Ophiuchus he used MUT to boost Palm, S&S and 2WS for buffs, and like me Gladiator Sword for Skrim ( +10% Melee Damage when wielded with a shield, +5 Deflection when wielded with a shield ). Pretty soon between Skrim and S&S you'll be hitting high Deflection and then with other items ( personal choice ) like the Con/Hit to Graze and Hit to Miss items between Nat rolls and converts you should be activating riposte.

 

I took that and then thought about Monk, and specifically HW monk due to the twin buff from wounds mid game. 

Monk gives you access to Blade Turning and other nice tricks along with on-crit fun and HW gives you both the normal Wheel tricks but also a STR boost for wounds on top ( I think I worked out that I needed 13 base str to be able to max out at 35 in combat with simply Gift from the Machine, Effigy boost, Gloves and food ( skewers for +2 MIG and +1 PL ) plus one from Background  once you apply Heartbeat and 10 wound boost from HW class perk ) so you can be running Lash and Int Boost while not a hard fight or Con boost for tougher fights as needed, Rogue and specifically Trickster gives you access to Mirror Image ( large Defelction boost ) and riposte and a pile of deflect/crit boosters plus also escape ( I use it to actually enter combat  ) and Gouging for DoT effect to power Sneak and Deathblows.

 

Need to Jump to Shops for dinner, but I'll post the build and what I'm using so far as Equipment once I'm back. @Boeroer and @Waski should be able to decide if it's solo possible, definitely surviving fine so far even without Mind/Body on POTD now it has Blade Turning even when it has multiple Engagers on it and not the tank. 

[make]

Super! Very helpful and much appreciated.

[Vonbek]

Right... I'm playing with a few Mods this run so exact levels won't be possible for when to take stuff and my totals might be out, @make

Weird but has a reason starting Weapon Choices : Sword, Dagger

Reason : Dagger until you have Palm for the Parrying Blade modal to allow you to still have the AS buff from Dual Weapons but buff Deflection, Sword because it'll mean you can run Sword/Dagger early if wanted or just go Fist/ Dagger OH.

Rogue :

starting pick :

• Escape

Early Game : 

• Blinding and then Gouging Strike, Dirty Fighting

Late Game : 

• Riposte, Persistent Distraction, Adept Evasion, Deathblows

Honourable Mentions ?

• Deep Wounds

Your other main abilities you will use all from Rogue all come on PL increase as auto gains. These are :

• Mirrored Image : +30 Deflection for 60 sec, -5 Deflection per hit. More AI has a conditional of "Class:Wizard:Mirrored Image is active" which you can then set to (not) to have it recast automatically on expiry via AI. Cost : 1 Guile
• Repulsive Visage . Cost : 1 guile. Manual cast Terror spell, handy to push back mobs if swarmed
• Arkemyr's Wondrous Torment . Up to you if you want to have it up continually or on manual. 30s base duration AOE debuff. Cost : 2 Guile ( because it hits both Resolve and Perception it does double work by making your foes easier to hit, while making them more likely to miss... which ties in with Riposte  )

Monk :

Starting Pick : 

• Swift Strikes ( unless someone can make a valid case for it, I can't see a place for Force in this build )

Early Game : ( you'll be taking Monk Picks usually at start )

• Lesser Wounds ( No Brainer as Wounds = Buffs ), Mortification of the Soul ( at first you might not want to have it on AI, but later probably have it set to trigger at Wounds<10 + Health<75%(not) ), Graceful Retreat ( because +12 Def to everything on Disengage is a fair amount ), *Blade Turning* !

Late Game : 

• Duality, Turning Wheel ( offensive as grants Int plus Lash ), Iron Wheel ( defensive as grants Con plus 0.3 Armour per Wound held )

The build generates fast and holds for effect, this isn't a Wound Spender build but a holder since HW gets so much from holding.

• Thunderous Blows ( this along with HW buff allows us to quite easily reach 35 MIG cap ), Enervating Blows ( remember we're also building for Crit ), Heartbeat Drumming ( again... crit = attack = corpses )

Honourable Mentions ? 

• Parting Sorrow

Mutual Picks :

• Improved Crit!, Uncanny Luck!, Tough, 2WS, S&S

The Build basically aims to get Deflection up high, have ability to either Blitz ( Turning plus crits ) or Grind if needed ( Iron plus monk renewables ).

It doesn't want Instruments of Pain as while it's using melee items, it also wants to be taking damage every so often. There's a few others I avoided that while nice would have taken either a passive defence pick or crit pick away from the options.

Beyond that It's not a massive lot of abilities as it is built to do "One Job", which is Crit as much and as fast as possible ( my early version on Vet had something like 6489 total hits ( 4986 crit out of that )) while having a solid Defelction etc and decent Armour Rating and punish anyone missing them in melee.

Mines Currently built for Party Use so you could easily swap the maxed int I have for either more Con or Resolve but is currently AR :11  ( DoC maxed out at Legendary ), Defl 105

 

Suggested Equipment : ! = required

• Helm : Blackened Plate Helm / Fair Favour / None ( if going Nature Godlike ( because you will pretty much always have an Inspiration up ))
• Amulet : Eothasian Charm / personally I run Claim/Refusal for the DPS/Def buff
• Cape : Shroud of the Phantasm / Hakori's Refuge / Greater Deflection / probably Falling Star if solo
• Gloves : Ogre ! / Woedicas Strangling Grasp !
• Rings : Greater Regen ! / Chameleon or Entonia Signet
• Ahu Taka or Pathfinder
• Belt : Undying Burden ( +2 Con, 2nd use of Second Wind ) !
• Trinket : Waidwen's Sundail
• Weapons : Gladiator Sword / Tuoatilo's Palm, Magran's Favour / Slayers' Claw, Kapana Taga / Shattered Vengeance  ,Willbreaker ( but specifically Sword/Palm when dealing with anything tough )
• Armor : Easiest to get : Devil of Caroc ( Devil's Due ! / Mech Mind ) . Other Options but a bit more work needed : Casità Samelia's Legacy ( focus Intimidate ! ), Gipon Prudensco ( Paranoid !, No Fool I ! )

Unity Console used to Spawn up Items and boost to level 20 on a Hearth Orlan to check stats?

• Equipment : Glad / Palm, DOC, WSG, Burden, C/R, Plate Helm, Hakoris, Greater Regen / CT, Ahu Taka, Pet : Nalvi
• Might : 13 Base, +2 Beraths Blessing, +2 WSG, +1 Gift of the Machine, +1 Sac : Maneha, -1 Orlan, +2 Skewers : 20, 35 with 10 wounds and Thunderous Blows
• Con : 8 base, +2 Beraths Blessing, +2 Burden : 12, 22 with Iron Wheel active and 10 wounds
• Dex : 4 base, +2 Beraths Blessing, +2 Chameleons Touch, +2 Ahu : 10, 15 with Swift Strikes/Flurry
• Per :  18 base,, +2 Beraths Blessing, +2 Orlan, +1 WTW ( background ), +1 Blackened Helm : 24
• Int : 17 base, +2 Beraths Blessing, +1 Blackened Helm : 20, 30 with Turning Wheel ( feel free to juggle points into other stats, I just like it there for getting good duration out of MI )
• Res : 15 base, +2 Berath Blessing, +1 Orlan, +1 Nalvi : 19

Deflection ( with shield upgraded etc ) : 111, 151 with MI and 10 Wounds powering Balanced enhance on Palm

If no achievement points for Beraths Blessing : Bonus Attributes, then you could probably get away with stripping INT and also 2 from strength and use Mohara Wraps for +4 instead to keep others up high.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Vonbek
combat value now gained

[Kaylon]

Tuoutilo's Palm is the best bashing shield because it uses Transcendent Suffering/Monastic Unarmed Training penetration and accuracy, but don't expect a dps increase from it if you just auto attack (even with full attacks the dps increase is probably minor). 

Bashing shields are interesting for characters able to spam main hand abilities - it this case you attack with the speed of a dual wielder, with no damage penalty, while benefiting from the shield's bonuses at the same time. The potential candidates are monk: (Efficient Anguish is easily sustainable with the damage taken), soul blade (Soul Annihilation with Sun and Moon refuels focus with the second hit) and tactician (Knock Down generates discipline on interrupts).

[Vonbek]

1 hour ago, Kaylon said:

The potential candidates are monk: (Efficient Anguish is easily sustainable with the damage taken

Is the Interrupt reliable on it? Might Try and work it in if so.

[Wotcha]

39 minutes ago, Vonbek said:

Is the Interrupt reliable on it? Might Try and work it in if so.

It interrupts on graze, so it’s as reliable as it gets, short of Thrust of Tattered Veils. 

[Kaylon]

5 hours ago, Vonbek said:

Is the Interrupt reliable on it? Might Try and work it in if so.

Yes,  but you have to hit them during their attack phase (not during their recovery)

[Boeroer]

Interrupts in general are more easy to utilize (to full effect) if you use them on enemies who are using abilities with long(ish) execution times (mostly spells). Those usually have a big impact on the encounter (think of Arcane Dampener). It's better to spare some interrupt capability for such situations when you see that an enemy starts casting stuff. Good examples: Neriscyrlas casts Llengrath's Safeguard, Concelhaut casts Arcane Cleanse and so on. Interrupting a quickly executed attack ability is usually very difficult to time  and not worth the effort. If you want to prevent enemies from using their offensive abilities a frightening or terrifying effect is great. Those are pretty easy to come by (see Wizard) and they often work really well with AoE Will debuffs (Miasma of Dull-Mindedness and/or an AoE strike with clubs + modal). The enemy won't lose the ability costs though like they do with an interrupt.

The good thing about Full Attack with Tuotilo's Palm is just that you have two chances to apply any effect (like afflictions). Due to the -35% dmg loss of Full Attacks and the low dmg of the bash I also guess you won't see a substantial damage increase. But stuff like Stunning Surge is better if you have two chances to apply stun or even crit with it (regaining resources). I mean better than with a normal shield. 

For me the best part of Tuotilo's Palm is the enhancements that boosts unarmed attacks, mostly the accuracy enhancement. It also applies to the shield itself by the way. But or course that's only a viable option if you really use your fists (primarily) and not another weapon.

Great point about Primary Attacks (like Force of Anguish) + bashing shields. Often overlooked I guess. 

 

[Vonbek]

10 hours ago, Wotcha said:

It interrupts on graze, so it’s as reliable as it gets, short of Thrust of Tattered Veils. 

 

4 hours ago, Kaylon said:

Yes,  but you have to hit them during their attack phase (not during their recovery)

Cheers Guys, looks like I need to pop something out to try and fit Force at a minimum in.

Attacks are down about the 0.5A/2.0R mark so should hopefully be able to proc off a simple "is spellcaster>Attack:is casting" condition properly like I use for Tranq Shot.

[Elric Galad]

Doesn't Best Defense benefit from Legendary weapon enhancement ? It should be as good as Tuotilo's for non-monk (and does not require specific talent)

[Boeroer]

All bashing shields profit from quality enchantments, but usually only the defensive capabilities scale, not the bashing ones. Might be different with the Best Defense shield, but I doubt it. Tuotilo's Palm also doesn't scale its offensive capabilities with quality but only its defensive ones. It's special because it is considered an "unarmed" weapon and thus scales with Transcendent Suffering/Monastic UT.

[Vonbek]

2 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Doesn't Best Defense benefit from Legendary weapon enhancement ? It should be as good as Tuotilo's for non-monk (and does not require specific talent)

You can still get Palm to Legendary/Myhtic.

 

I'd also argue that the possible Enhancements on Palm even before the Monk Exclusive are better than Best Defense since you can grab Damage / Acc / Riposte without even needing MUT never mind Monk class., and you can also get Palm a lot quicker than BD.

 

Also not sure if it's a Wiki issue but BD doesn't seem to to have the ability to scale with Monk/MUT so is just a generic "weapon" in relation to Modal/Passive effects outside of the Binding Block?

[Boeroer]

Just checked: Best Defense comes legendary and its bashing stats (dmg, PEN, ACC) don't scale with legendary. They stay basic (0% dmg bonus, +0 PEN, +0 ACC ). Like all other bashing shields it only scales its shield deflection from +4 to +8 with the ledendary enchantment. It does not profit from Transcendent Sufferung or Monastic UT. you can enchant the bash seperately with +2 PEN OR +25% dmg. Which is laughable. I guess this mechanic of bashing is an oversight. It seems Obsidian can't get bashing right (exept Tuotilo's Palm which is an edge case).

[Vonbek]

Yeah, I'd take the Scaling and Acc/Dam plus the Riposte or Deflection ( monk ) options over the choice of +2 or +25% every time then.

[Boeroer]

Given how late you get that shield an increase of 25% additive dmg for such low base damage (7-10) as an enchantment that requires serious investment is a slap in the face in my opinion.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Boeroer