How do you rank or compare the other popular cRPGS?

[uuuhhii]

deadfire is the completion of obsidian's attempt to improve dnd formula for pc games

but the problem is that people want dnd on pc are mostly people play dnd

so they don't care much about how dnd never fit into pc game

for people looking for plot and story it is as impenetrable as any other complicate fantasy setting

require hours of investment to begin to understand what is going on

[daven]

I think i'm a little burned out on isometric party based games, i wouldn't mind another NWN style rpg. Has the 'feel' of these older games but full 3d and by yourself(maybe henchman).

[Winterheart]

With most of the major issues Pathfinder had at launch being resolved I would say it has quickly become my favorite.

[xzar_monty]

2 hours ago, Winterheart said:

With most of the major issues Pathfinder had at launch being resolved I would say it has quickly become my favorite.

 

It's a good game, and I'm enjoying it, too. I think there are two big things in the game that can be a problem if you don't happen to like them:

1) The writing is really quite cheesy -- there is no subtlety or depth at all, and the dialogue choices are very basic.

2) The game doesn't care for your well-being or even survival, and it doesn't hesitate to wipe you out. Plenty or merciless encounters.

 

For me, #1 is a bit of a concern, because I do appreciate good storytelling, but despite that, I'm still enjoying the game a lot. As for #2, I actually quite like the "very harsh/cruel but fair" approach.

[Winterheart]

15 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

 

It's a good game, and I'm enjoying it, too. I think there are two big things in the game that can be a problem if you don't happen to like them:

1) The writing is really quite cheesy -- there is no subtlety or depth at all, and the dialogue choices are very basic.

2) The game doesn't care for your well-being or even survival, and it doesn't hesitate to wipe you out. Plenty or merciless encounters.

 

For me, #1 is a bit of a concern, because I do appreciate good storytelling, but despite that, I'm still enjoying the game a lot. As for #2, I actually quite like the "very harsh/cruel but fair" approach.

The writing is very similar to what you would commonly get in DnD books and games, its very true to the genre in that regard. The dialogue choice may be basic, but you very often get choices that align with any alignment you'd wish to play. Its one of the few games where I've felt that playing a evil character did not outright punish you through dialogues.

And I do agree with you on 2. I see this as one of the things that I really enjoy with the game, but it is not for everyone. At least the game came with a easy mode!

Edited July 10, 2019 by Winterheart

[mychal26]

For recent cRPGs I'd rank as:

Pathfinder > Tyranny > POE I >> Wasteland II > POE II >>> Torment

[xzar_monty]

Wow. That's fascinating. I thought Tyranny was wholly uninteresting, and Deadfire is so obivously better than PoE that it's clear as day.

Please be aware that my intention is simply to highlight the differences in taste.

Could you tell me why you prefer Pathfinder over all the others?

[daven]

Apparently Torment isn't even an RPG is it? Some kind of visual novel. I haven't played it so no idea.

[Elric Galad]

18 hours ago, daven said:

Apparently Torment isn't even an RPG is it? Some kind of visual novel. I haven't played it so no idea.

It is mostly a Gamebook 90% of the time.

However, the combat (and character building) is somehow a bit complex and I can't say I totally hated it. 
The best word to qualify it is "unfinished". They have put a lot of effort and rules into something that is only a minor part of the game and doesn't feel good. 

And as I said before some of the main (unavoidable) encounters that were meant to be epic are actually very very very very bad.

[Wormerine]

6 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

They have put a lot of effort and rules into something that is only a minor part of the game and doesn't feel good. 

Pretty much this.

The whole crisist system is there (it's clunky) but I remember maybe two instances it was utilized.

I enjoyed reading through the game, but the whole thing felt a bit too disjointed to be satisfying.

[daven]

They made a big point of the word count as if that number actually means something. It's likely to scare off a lot of potential customers and surely the quality of the writing is what matters not the quantity.

[Wormerine]

Well, why not. Here is my list:

1) PoE: Deadfire - in spite of my gripes: Deadfire represents what RPGs I like, and it does so many things, so very well. My main issues are when the game doesn't so as well, what the original did, but judging on its own, it's a pretty stellar RPG.

2) Shadowrun: Dragonfall - really good time with a limited scale. Replatibility isn't great as it's a very directed experience, but I played it twice and had great time both times. 

3) Divinity Original Sin - very subjective. I played a big chunk of it with my friend and had a grant time. Still, finished it single player and it was brief enough to still be enjoyable.

4) PoE1 - mid game just wasn't interesting enough, but destiny was well worth the journey. 

5) Tyranny - I liked the setting, characters and opening chapter, but there just was too much combat, and combat was too shallow to not drag it down.

6) Wasteland 2 - I would need to replay it, as it's been a while. And it was the first one I played in a long time, so my memories might be a bit too positive. 

BREAKING POINT Me do not like:

7) Pathfinder Kingmaker - game in early stages (finishing opening chapter I think) so it might change. So far it's alright - the system gives me some Nwn2 nostalgia. But it has so many problems. Combat can be tedious, balance seems out of wack, pacing is real bad, enemy composition dull. Writing is not done great - I don't have an issue with the light tone, but how unnatural, unlikable and awkward it feels.

Divinity Original Sin2 - a big *I need to try it with a friend (preferably THE friend from D:OS1). Single player experience was really bad for me. Really tedious, too much time spend managing trash equipment, quests were so undefined and freeform it felt more like cleaning a map, then doing anything specific. 

9) Shadowrun: Hong Kong - quite disappointed in this one. On paper it is a bigger and better Dragonfall - but nothing really worked for me here - didnt care for companions, areas felt large and empty, and Hong Kong made for a surprisingly dull setting.

10) Torment: Tides of Numenera - meh

11) Shadowrun Returns - really meh

[daven]

I played Dragonfall when it first came out, I should really replay it again with the directors cut version. Is there much difference?

Also, do we count Dragon Age with the 'modern CRPGs' or whatever? I didn't like that much the first time round but I played again a couple of years ago and it's a pretty good game. It's basically KOTOR but in a fantasy world.

Also, did you play Shadowrun Returns when it first came out? It didn't even have save points or anything, felt like a really cheap game but luckioly the music in it is really good.

Edited July 12, 2019 by daven

[draego]

7 hours ago, daven said:

I played Dragonfall when it first came out, I should really replay it again with the directors cut version. Is there much difference?

Yes they added 5 more mission i believe companion related missions and plus other general game improvements to skills and combat

[mychal26]

On 7/11/2019 at 8:11 AM, xzar_monty said:

Wow. That's fascinating. I thought Tyranny was wholly uninteresting, and Deadfire is so obivously better than PoE that it's clear as day.

Please be aware that my intention is simply to highlight the differences in taste.

Could you tell me why you prefer Pathfinder over all the others?

I very much don't like Deadfire as the main story is severely lacking - there is really no point to the main quest line. Comparatively, the story in PoE I was new and fresh, with interesting world building. The narrative isn't near as gripping in the second game, in fact I'd say it was boring. Gameplay wise I prefer the first as well as everything feels as if it's been toned down in the second game. It's almost as if all the balancing has led to a stale gameplay experience. The art direction, visual effects, etc are definitely improved in the second game though.

I prefer PF over the other games I mentioned as it feels like a true spiritual successor to BG II. The lore is very interesting, and I very much like the main story. I liked how the story was deep and involved in PF, with a great amount of reactivity throughout the game based on your decisions, especially in the main quest line. Compare to PoE II where there is barely any main story, which can be finished in less than 10 hours - just not much meat on the bones and barely any reactivity. Furthermore, I hated the companion interactions in PoE II as you could max our their relationship in a few hours. In PF you slowly build your relationship with your companions over the entire game and it does not feel 2D like PoE II. Gameplay wise, PF plays like a classic cRPG, but with a new coat of paint; it's very similar to NWN 2 with all the build options which makes getting out of the character creator a challenge in itself. I also like the large number of spells, feats, etc as the gameplay never gets boring as there are so many options to try. That said, there are some aspects of PF that I don't like, such as single level dips and the OP sneak mechanic.

That's not to say PF is my favorite cRPG though (that would be either BG II or DA Origins), but it is a really good. Honestly, PoE II just doesn't come close, especially with all of the updates to PF:KM.

[uuuhhii]

On 7/9/2019 at 10:07 PM, xzar_monty said:

 

It's a good game, and I'm enjoying it, too. I think there are two big things in the game that can be a problem if you don't happen to like them:

1) The writing is really quite cheesy -- there is no subtlety or depth at all, and the dialogue choices are very basic.

2) The game doesn't care for your well-being or even survival, and it doesn't hesitate to wipe you out. Plenty or merciless encounters.

 

For me, #1 is a bit of a concern, because I do appreciate good storytelling, but despite that, I'm still enjoying the game a lot. As for #2, I actually quite like the "very harsh/cruel but fair" approach.

overwhelming quantity of fantasy cliche was the point of pathfinder

everything have a piece in it so player can start a game in whatever setting they want

and it was also the setting's most obvious weakness

as for roleplay as a more consistent character

it was not very well constructed

worst part are the dialogue option block by alignment

the game play system are so ancient even compare to poe and wasteland2

it just doesn't work at all

the strength of pfk certainly didn't penetrate it's many flaws

player have to fight every single one of it to get to the good stuff

usually the short story piece together by items scatter around

Edited July 13, 2019 by uuuhhii

[Wormerine]

13 hours ago, daven said:

I played Dragonfall when it first came out, I should really replay it again with the directors cut version. Is there much difference?

Yes! There are some minor overall improvements to combat and UI, but most of all, there are additional story missions! Two I can recall on top of my head were related to companions (Gloria and the decker guy). Good stuff, and they make the most out of systems available in dragon fall. It is well worth the 2nd playthrough I think.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Torment was not a very good game and an ok visual novel. The system was confusing and while you could go hours without combat being randomly dropped in was unpleasant. 

Shadowrun is really cool but there doesn't seem to be much depth to combat so I usually only finish once. It's still a great time though.

I didn't like Wasteland 2. No idea why, I just didn't get into it and never finished it.

DOS was one hell of a time, played it with Epic Encounters + 6 man party and it's even better.

DOS2 is better than the first, but I think while the premade characters are a great idea none of them felt like what I'd want to roll with and I liked them better as companions.

Tyranny is hard for me to get into and I don't like the skill and leveling system or the limited customization at character creation. 

I haven't played Kingmaker yet and will probably get it in the winter sale hoping it's not a broken mess.

[kanisatha]

Don't think I can provide a meaningful rank-ordering, but among recent cRPGs: I love PoE1, PoE2, and P:K. I like T:ToN. I hate the D:OS games. Among modern ARPGs, I love DA:O, DA:I, and Witcher 3, like DA2 and Oblivion, and hate Skyrim.

[xzar_monty]

I'm enjoying P:K rather a lot, but one thing that bugs me is that the game so obviously and blatantly cheats. In my view, that's simply a cheap choice from the developers. There are so many things you cannot prepare for and that couldn't really happen within the rules -- rules that you have to follow but the game doesn't. Bad call.

 

Still, a good game.

[bringingyouthefuture]

I'm playing Dragon Quest XI, I know its terrible and you can't really discuss it in the same realm as these other games, but I can't help it, and it is pretty fun for a JRPG - it is kind of like the PG13 version of DOS and DOS2 lol.

As for PK - I am really interested in trying out the turn-based mod I keep reading about in the other forum.  If the turn-based mod plays well I think it could solve one of my biggest gripes about the game - it is a mod though so a little skeptical.  There is so much right with PK, but also so many things that drive me nuts about it ...

Edited July 16, 2019 by bringingyouthefuture
sp

[xzar_monty]

So what's one of your biggest gripes, then? I have no need for the turn-based mod, but then, I never even tried turn-based in Deadfire.

 

For me, the biggest gripe in P:K is the cheating, because I think it's just really tasteless. The cheesiness of the writing is a bit poor at times, but I can deal with that.

[bringingyouthefuture]

My gripes, I get really annoyed with positioning, the sprites are too big.  Graphically there is a lot of redundancy.  The combat abilities that don't always work in RtWP but I want to use them as they seem awesome.  The arms race to get the highest AC.  The obsessive need for haste spells (this is every D&D game on computer I have ever played).  The lack of take 10 or take 20 options for chests and such.

There is so many good things and I really liked the game, totally hope they do a part two!  Many people have mentioned the best parts, the biggest for me is the story is pretty fantastic!!! 

Edited July 16, 2019 by bringingyouthefuture
spelling

[xzar_monty]

I totally agree that the sprites are too big. Frankly, I'm astonished that a problem like this can exist in a game of this kind. It beggars belief that directing characters in a battle can be difficult because the sprites are too big.

I also agree on the haste thing. It is a built-in problem in the D&D world that casting a combination of haste on your own group and slow on your enemies is too effective.

Hey, what about the "slow mode activating at random" thing? Does that bother you? That's another thing that frankly astonishes me -- I think it's nice that there's a slow movement mode in the game (although I never use it myself), but it's basically inexcusable that it tends to activate almost at will in battles simply because you occasionally press pause. I mean, there's no justification for that.

Despite all that, I also enjoy the game a great deal. I think there's a lot of wonderful stuff in it, and I wouldn't want to be drawn to discussing which one's better, P:K or Deadfire. I mean, they're both really good if you're into games like this.

 

As for the cheating that I mentioned, what I mean is something like this. I'm sure you remember the nymph encounter that you have to do alone -- right? I believe the location is called Verdant Chambers, or something pretty close to that, anyway. Well, once you enter the courtyard and sort of trigger the encounter, several things happen that are just blatant cheating and a definite no-no in my book. Traps appear in places that you walked over fifteen seconds ago, traps that definitely weren't there and you absolutely couldn't spot. A monster also appears outside the courtyard, just like that. You could argue that somebody teleports the monster there, but even that is a stretch, and there's just no justification for the sudden appearance of the traps. That's cheating.

This is not the only example. There are spots where you walk in consecutive spaces or rooms, let's call them ABCD (so you start in a corridor or a sequence of rooms from spot A and travel into D; they're all connected to each other). When you travel from A to B, B is empty, but once you get to C, monsters appear in B, and there are also monsters in D, so you're attacked from both sides at once. And in most instances like these, there can be no outside agency that teleports the monsters there.

I think this is a blemish on the game. I like challenges, even tough ones, but I also think that the game should play fair. Traps and monsters shouldn't appear out of nowhere in places you just checked and confirmed were safe.

[Stefan89]

Torment: Tides of Numenara was massively disappointing. The original was philosophical, bizarre, and intelligently-written. It made great use of a setting where beliefs shape the world around you.

ToN is just lots of words and weird stuff for the sake of it. It's shallow. Like it was written by people who aren't that smart. It's really sad. And the combat is awful. I spent £80 on the collection edition of that game and I ended up throwing it away when I moved house because I have no desire to play it again whatsoever.

Deadfire is light years ahead in every category.