How good is Enervating Blows really?

[Jayd]

I'm not sure what to make of Enervating Blows. It sounds nice, but I find it hard to imagine how much it will really help me kill things.

 

Lowered healing is nice, but I very rarely notice enemies being healed significantly.

 

Countering constitution inspirations is nice but how often are you up against them?

 

Most importantly: what effect does a constitution affliction have on time-to-kill (assuming no healing), if any? A point of constitution is a 5% modifier on HP. So the affliction must lower max HP. But does it lower remaining HP when it's not full? Like if an enemy's hp is at 100 from a max of 200, and say the affliction lowers max health by 50 (=150), does the remaining health scale down to 75 so it's proportional? 

If not, the affliction would only affect TTK if the enemy is being healed, benefiting from constitution inspirations, or is at/very near max health at the time of application (there's also the accuracy vs fortitude situations, but we're putting that aside). There is use in that, but I'm really not sure how impactful it is. Then you have the fact that it's only consistently in play so long as you're critting very often...

 

Can anyone report whether their character felt any stronger after picking Enervating Blows? Besides comboing with fortitude-targeting abilities; I get that.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Jayd

[Kaylon]

If you don't expect to crit often and don't have some sort of synergy (strong fortitude attacks, sneak attack, etc) it's pretty worthless. 

[dunehunter]

The sweet thing about Constitution Affliction is it reduces enemies's max health when u damage them, and when the affliction expired, u actually deal more damage then u expected.

 

For example, if your enemy has 100 HP and 10 Constitution, you did 20 damage and cause Constitution Affliction, then affliction expired, enemy's left HP = (100 x (1 - 5*0.03) - 20) / (1 - 5*0.03) = 76, so we found that u actually did 4 extra damage than u really did.

 

If u are confused by the math, the 5*3% is the impact of con affliction on enemy health.

Edited April 10, 2019 by dunehunter

[Boeroer]

I'd also say that in general the health reduction is the best part. Especially against enemies with big health pools but lowish deflection.

 

Of course it's best if you have some synergy like Kaylon said: fortitude attacks and/or Sneak Attack or being a Steel Garrote or Beguiler and so on.

 

Especially if you want to attack fortitude anyway and have access to any MIG affliction ability as well. Then CON affliction and MIG afflicition stack their defense debuffs to -20.

Let's say Monk/Barb: Staggered + Weakened = -20 fortitude. Add Body Blows: -45. Add Brute Force. Lowering a defense for your buddies and critting all over the place with nearly no extra micro and resources: Not bad, not bad at all. 

[MaxQuest]

Let's say Monk/Barb: Staggered + Weakened = -20 fortitude. Add Body Blows: -45.

It feels a bit askew that it's possible to lower enemy fortitude by 45. While reflex can be lowered by 55; deflection by ~80; and will by 88.

Provided that fortitude is usually the highest defense.

 

P.S. Those values are not counting general maluses, like -10 from Shining Beacon, and ~-10 from Hunter of Hunters (Ngati's Tusk) that apply to more than one defense.

Edited April 10, 2019 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Yes, but often those debuffs are actives that need quite some resources. Evervating Blows' weakening costs nothing (once you took it).

 

Also the most effective abilites in the game seem to target fortitude. No wonder why it's the highest and most difficult to lower.

[Waski]

Question: when I hit with Stunning Surge (two rolls, 1st vs Def and 2nd vs fortitude to actually stunt) and crit vs Def, does roll against fortitude is made at - 10 (weakened from enervating blows)?

[Boeroer]

Don't know which roll (Weakened against Fortitude or Stunned against Fortitude) comes first - but both lower Fortitude by 10.

[Waski]

I was thinking more in the line: weakened ->easier to stunned(-10DEF)->easier to crit->profit(swift flurry, heartbeat drumming)

[Boeroer]

Did a quick test:

 

first comes the stunning roll against the full fortitude, then stunning gets applied (-10 fortitude).

 

The weakening doesn't seem to roll against defenses at all. Once you land a crit it gets applied no matter what - but in this case it's the last effect that will get applied. It doesn't show up in the combat log, but it pops up after stunning (over the enemy's head).

 

After both got applied the enemy will be stunned and weakened for the same base duration. Deflection -10, fortitude -20 and so on.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Boeroer

[Jayd]

The sweet thing about Constitution Affliction is it reduces enemies's max health when u damage them, and when the affliction expired, u actually deal more damage then u expected.

 

For example, if your enemy has 100 HP and 10 Constitution, you did 20 damage and cause Constitution Affliction, then affliction expired, enemy's left HP = (100 x (1 - 5*0.03) - 20) / (1 - 5*0.03) = 76, so we found that u actually did 4 extra damage than u really did.

 

If u are confused by the math, the 5*3% is the impact of con affliction on enemy health.

This is exactly what I was looking for; thank you.That looks like a ~20% increase to final damage under con afflictions, which is way better than I would have thought.

 

I would like it if someone would explicitly confirm that con afflictions, when applied, modify remaining hp along with max hp, as I mentioned in the OP. If not, this math only applies if the con affliction was applied when the target was at full health.

[Boeroer]

Did another test:

Hit my party member with Forbidden Fist (applies Enfeebled - same thing in this case) who has 133/133 health:

• 133/133
• deal 32 crush + enfeebled
• --> 72/104
• enfeebled expires
• --> 101/133
• = 32 less health
• deal 34 crush + enfeebled
• --> 44/104
• enfeebled expires
• --> 62/133
• = 71 less health

I caused 71 less health which is the same as dealing 71 dmg - although I only hit for 32+34 = 66 crush damage.

 

As you can see when I hit him the second time: the current remaining health went down from 101 to 44 (= 67 difference!) although I only hit for 34 dmg. The difference is even more obvious if you hit high health enemies. Then a CON affliction is worth several hits. If you manage to reduce health to zero while a CON affliction is in the works then it is a very strong effect in my opinion - but even if it expires before the kill: it's still a good effect as you can see. 

Edited April 10, 2019 by Boeroer

[thelee]

Did another test:

 

Hit my party member with Forbidden Fist (applies Enfeebled - same thing in this case) who has 133/133 health:

• 133/133
• deal 32 crush + enfeebled
• --> 72/104
• enfeebled expires
• --> 101/133
• = 32 less health
• deal 34 crush + enfeebled
• --> 44/104
• enfeebled expires
• --> 62/133
• = 71 less health

I caused 71 less health which is the same as dealing 71 dmg - although I only hit for 32+34 = 66 crush damage.

 

As you can see when I hit him the second time: the current remaining health went down from 101 to 44 (= 67 difference!) although I only hit for 34 dmg. If you manage to reduce health to zero while a CON affliction is in the works then it is a very strong effect in my opinion - but even if it expires before the kill: it's still a good effect as you can see. 

 

i'm not sure i'm understanding how the math is being done in-game, based on what you and dunehunter are saying. how much con does this character have?

 

dunehunter's equation implies that enemies with high con (s.t. they still have a bonus even after the affliction) which actually take less damage than stated

[Jayd]

dunehunter's equation implies that enemies with high con (s.t. they still have a bonus even after the affliction) which actually take less damage than stated

 

Could you elaborate? 

[thelee]

 

dunehunter's equation implies that enemies with high con (s.t. they still have a bonus even after the affliction) which actually take less damage than stated

Could you elaborate?

 

actually I don't know how to make sense of dunehunter's equation. also it's slightly wrong: constitution grants 5% health/point, not 3%.

 

boeroer's in-game example just raises questions that I don't know how to answer with just a few minutes of thinking. Judging from boeroer's empirical example, what appears to be happening is that when you lose CON the game reduces your current health by the ratio of your new max health to your old max health. But when you gain CON, the game is doing something else; it works correctly after the first hit (giving boeroer's char 29 current health, the exact amount of max health being restored), but does something weird after the second hit (only giving him 18 current health).

 

there must be some arithmetic error somewhere in-game where the health gain you get from CON gains is not being calculated correctly at lower health levels.

 

this has important ramifications for con inspirations, which up to this point I had thought could make for potentially semi-decent instant heals late game (since the "healing" scales with your base health, which goes up every level), because if you're getting less than you're owed at lower health then it screws that over.

 

maybe if i knew how much con boeroer's health had that could clarify some things.

Edited April 10, 2019 by thelee

[dunehunter]

 

 

dunehunter's equation implies that enemies with high con (s.t. they still have a bonus even after the affliction) which actually take less damage than stated

Could you elaborate?

 

actually I don't know how to make sense of dunehunter's equation. also it's slightly wrong: constitution grants 5% health/point, not 3%.

 

Yes sorry you are right, it's 5% not 3%, it has been too long for me to touch the game so I forget the detailed number

[Boeroer]

 

Did another test:

 

[...]

 

[...]how much con does this character have?

[...]

 

 

maybe if i knew how much con boeroer's health had that could clarify some things.

Oh yeah sorry, I forgot to mention the char's CON. It was 10.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Did another test:

Hit my same party member who now has 192/192 health (set CON from 10 to 20) with Forbidden Fist:

• 192/192
• deal 40 crush + enfeebled
• --> 123/163
• enfeebled expires
• --> 151/192
• = 41 less health (note: 41 and not 40)
• deal 41 crush + enfeebled
• --> 87/163
• enfeebled expires
• --> 106/192
• = 86 less health
• deal 41 crush + enfeebled
• --> 49/163
• enfeebled expires
• --> 60/192
• = 132 less health

I caused 132 less health - although I only hit for 40+41+41 = 122 crush damage. While enfeebled lasted after the third hit (49 left) I actually caused 143 "temporary" dmg although only applied 122 crush damage. If you can keep up the CON-Affliction until the enemy's dead - that's pretty good. And as i said: even if you cannot - it's not bad.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Boeroer

[Jayd]

Dope.  Also makes Plague of Insects even more appealing, and upgraded White Worms (which I stopped using because it stopped working; hope they fix that).Upgraded What Rou Naka Found Down In The Deep (have to type full phrase for the best one) also sickens until combat ends when the spore dies.

[dunehunter]

Did another test:

 

Hit my same party member who now has 192/192 health (set CON from 10 to 20) with Forbidden Fist:

• 192/192
• deal 40 crush + enfeebled
• --> 123/163
• enfeebled expires
• --> 151/192
• = 41 less health (note: 41 and not 40)
• deal 41 crush + enfeebled
• --> 87/163
• enfeebled expires
• --> 106/192
• = 86 less health
• deal 41 crush + enfeebled
• --> 49/163
• enfeebled expires
• --> 60/192
• = 132 less health

I caused 132 less health - although I only hit for 40+41+41 = 122 crush damage. While enfeebled lasted after the third hit (49 left) I actually caused 143 "temporary" dmg although only applied 122 crush damage. If you can keep up the CON-Affliction until the enemy's dead - that's pretty good. And as i said: even if you cannot - it's not bad.

 

That's why Bleakwalker + Assassin is very strong in early game Con affliction + massive single attack can maximize the effect of constitution affliction.

[MaxQuest]

Imagine a monk tank with 3 CON, and 130hp.

 

With +10 CON from Duality, that's 13 CON and 230hp.

 

He takes 115 damage and is at 115/230.

 

He switches Duality, and is now at 65/130.

 

Now he can heal-up for 65 and switch Duality again to get to 230/230.

 

TL.DR. It's better to take damage while having CON inspiration/bonus. And vice-versa: it's better to deal damage while enemy is affected by CON affliction/malus.

Edited April 11, 2019 by MaxQuest

[heldred]

Experiential data suggests: 1) Enervating blows is good if you can fit it into a build, but you won't miss it, 2) Max is correct, yet another reason Duality is one of the stronger skills in the game, and 3) I tend to take it, since inflicting enemies with any debuff is fun.  

[thelee]

Imagine a monk tank with 3 CON, and 130hp.

 

With +10 CON from Duality, that's 13 CON and 230hp.

 

He takes 115 damage and is at 115/230.

 

He switches Duality, and is now at 65/130.

 

Now he can heal-up for 65 and switch Duality again to get to 230/230.

 

TL.DR. It's better to take damage while having CON inspiration/bonus. And vice-versa: it's better to deal damage while enemy is affected by CON affliction/malus.

you're implying that your current health is set to equal whatever is the same relative % health level as before the health adjustment (that would be a logical thing to do), but boeroer's data shows that that is not the case.

 

(boeroer - i have to assume that you have something that grants you +15 health and that you are a cipher or wizard at level 10 because that's the main way i can make sense that you have an odd amount of health at 10 con)

 

i still can't really make sense of the data (and haven't had time to do tests myself) because boeroer is getting back the full +29 health that a +5 CON boost implies the first time the con affliction wears off (i think there's some rounding involved), despite being at less than full health. At some point he starts getting back less and less.

 

edit - the only thing i can really figure out is that the lower your current health, the lower your health back. but it's not in a way that keeps your current health % at the same proportional level, as maxquest implies. example - when enfeeble wears off the first time in boeroer's first post, current health goes from 72/104 to 101/133 - if it was purely proportional it should be 92/133 (i tried permuting the implied +15 health in some way but can't get a satisfactory equation). my best guess is that there's some linear relationship between current health to max health and how much of the maximum health gain you get to your current health, and there's a threshold where you still get the full max health, and a minimum where you always get a small amount of current health gain.

Edited April 11, 2019 by thelee

[Boeroer]

boeroer - i have to assume that you have something that grants you +15 health and that you are a cipher or wizard at level 10 because that's the main way i can make sense that you have an odd amount of health at 10 con

Very good. It's a Devoted/Skald with an amulet of health.

 

By the way I made sure that no healing was applied during testing (e.g. I let Constant Recovery run out before hitting).

Edited April 11, 2019 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

you're implying that your current health is set to equal whatever is the same relative % health level as before the health adjustment (that would be a logical thing to do), but boeroer's data shows that that is not the case.

Yeah, I was expecting it to be proportional. With the only exception of +flat modifiers.

 

(boeroer - i have to assume that you have something that grants you +15 health and that you are a cipher or wizard at level 10 because that's the main way i can make sense that you have an odd amount of health at 10 con)

There is definitely some +15hp in his case, if he has 133 hp at 10 CON and 192 at 20 CON.

 

Very good. It's a Devoted/Skald with an amulet of health.

For some reason I was thinking your character is lvl 10, and the numbers didn't match.

With new info:

 

Fighter has 42hp + 12 per level.

Chanter has 40hp + 10 per level.

And a fighter/chanter would have 41hp + 11 per level.

 

So he's level 8, right? 41 + 7 * 11 + 15 = 118 + 15 = 133.

 

Anyway, regarding those numbers:

--> 72/104 (@5 CON)

enfeebled expires

--> 101/133 (@10 CON)

 

max_hp: (104 - 15) * (1 / 0.75) + 15 = 89 * 1.(3) + 15 = 133

 

But for current hp change, I can come only with the following numbers:

 

current_hp: (72 + 15) * (1 / 0.75) - 15 = 87 * 1.(3) - 15 = 101

 

Which is odd, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited April 11, 2019 by MaxQuest