[4.1.2] Confounding blind and Supressed Deflection...

[theBalthazar]

Hello,

 

I have found a semi-bug.

 

There is a malus of 3 of deflection when the target is blinded. (With confounding blind)

 

But there is already a problem : Flanked give -10 deflection. (Flanked is a PART of blinded)

 

So this additive -3 is always supressed until -12 (4 hits).

 

Except that an affliction (or an inspiration) is a complete "box". If you have thing inside, it is not possible to have a conflict of suppression.

 

MORE^^, 95 % of the fights of the game, I never seen this effect activated. Why ? Because in 4 hits (to exceed 10), all ennemies are already die.

 

And in fact, after 9, you have only 12, 15, so what a max of -5 after 5 hits !?

 

And only for 15s. So in fact i'm not sure the bonus appear to increase more than that. We hardly benefit.

 

More, in fact, I spend ONE ability point, to have no differences the 4 first hit ?

 

More again, all the effects of active-attacks (FoD accuracy/damages etc.) give a true stackable bonus. Not the case here.

 

Clearly, need to stack with the rest, even with a nerf at 2 ! (3 hits : -6 deflection) If not, increase the value at 4 (With a max of 7 ; 4x7 =28), at least, to exceed more quickly the supression.

 

Because actually, this upgrade (confounding blind) is totally useless.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2019 by theBalthazar

[MaxQuest]

Confounding Blind is not totally useless because those -3 deflection stack up to 10 times (which is good vs bosses; or vs enemies you multi-hit or focus-fire)

 

But yeah, I do agree that it is unpleasant that it doesn't stack with -10 Deflection from Flanked because... I would think that Flanked is a passive.

Turns out it's not.

 

 

P.S. I like your general idea of speeding-up the deflection penalty accumulation.

I.e. going from -3 Deflection per hit (for up to 10 times) to at least -5 Deflection per hit (for up to 6 times)

Edited March 4, 2019 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Yeah that's a bit counterintuitive - and also frustrating to use as well as to test. You won't guess how many times I thought "wtf - this doesn't do anything" until I used a dw blunderbuss quickswitcher (Black Jacket/Streetfighter) and found out that you have to overcome the malus from flanked first. 

[theBalthazar]

Yes only against bosses.

 

After what I think all the afflictions must stack. If not, create a "box with effects" named affliction have no sense.

Flanked is a different affliction than blinded (affliction perception level 3)

 

The malus of confounding blind seems to be an upgrade of this affliction, so this is strange...

 

EDIT :

 

Yes, the idea of progressive increasing is good.

 

Like start slow, and growth stronger :

 

Hit 1 : -1 deflection (Stack)

Hit 2 : -2 deflection (Stack)

Hit 3 : -3 deflection (Stack)

Hit 4 : -4 deflection

Hit 5 : -5 deflection

Hit 6 : -5 deflection

Hit 7 : -5 deflection

Hit 8 MAX : -5 deflection

Total : -30 deflection in 8 hits.

 

Actually :

 

Hit 1 : -3 deflection (Not stack)

Hit 2 : -3 deflection (Not stack)

Hit 3 : -3 deflection (Not stack)

Hit 4 : -3 deflection

Hit 5 : -3 deflection

Hit 5 : -3 deflection

Hit 6 : -3 deflection

Hit 7 : -3 deflection

Hit 8 : -3 deflection

Hit 9 : -3 deflection

Hit 10 MAX : -3 deflection

Total : -30 deflection in 10 hits.

Edited March 4, 2019 by theBalthazar

[thelee]

One thing to keep in mind is that a) characters can (rarely) lose flanked but still have a perception affliction [though this itself is likely a buggy handling of flanked] and b) even on enemies that are able to be rid of the perception affliction, you'll still have the confounding blind effect.

 

so it's not "wasted" though it may still be a design error.

 

though there are several effects in the game that seem redundant, and it is (to my reading) an intentional way of making an effect "sticky." For example, Wild Sprint (barbarian) gives you nimble and immunity to engagement which at first blush is weird because swift would do the exact same thing, but making them separate effects means that your dex inspiration can be countered (or ineffective) but you'll still have the immunity to engagement. Similarly, Writ of Engagement does stagger and cannot engage, which is redundant with stagger, but it means even if stagger doesn't work (might resistance or dispelling a might inspiration) the "cannot engage" component still does.

 

i'm not sure if this is much comfort - I just remember that in any given run I find the Bridge Ablaze really challenging because even with scrolls of blessing in tow, the fact that every burned archer uses confounding blind on your party members is extremely punishing.

 

there are also other bugs with confounding blind, i'm not sure if they've ever been addressed: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/104987-bugconfounding-blind-duration/

[theBalthazar]

Bump !

[Phenomenum]

Bump, Heheh...

As always, all further information was precisely tested and verified.

First of all, no offence to @theBalthazar, but his topic full of wrong information, based on his own speculations and conclusions, but no proper testing. No offence, i say.
The only truth, is that Flanked Deflection penalty don't stack with CB Deflection penalty. But...

1. CB ability apply additional -3 Deflection penalty on FIRST attack landing. In fact we have not -3*10 penalty, but -3*11 penalty. Maximum value: -33.

2. CB Deflection penalty triggers 'On Damaged'. That means it will trigger not only from physical weapon damage, but from most damage sources from ALL party members. You can use Wall of Flames, Ray of Fire, all Cipher's ray spells and so on. Player can very fast apply Maximum penalty value to target, just attacking it from various sources.

3. Efficiency of CB ability Attack highly depends of used weapons and number of it's projectiles, because after CB effect applied, each additional attack (or projectile) triggers -3 Deflection penalty. Even your Secondary attack when using CB ability with DW. And all projectiles of Blunderbuss. And all this triggers applied INSTANTLY, when you Graze/Hit/Crit by an attack.

I had a huge test session, but also i looked in status effect data to be sure about my implications. The final results are here. Read carefully, feel free to ask questions if you don't understand something. My test subject's Deflection value was 61.

 

Currently @MaxQuest and i working together on some sort of Community patch. I can make Flanking penalty stack with everything - it's not a big deal.

But i want to ask all community members interested: A you really want it? Because in fact, currently you lose ONLY ONE attack (and ONLY IF One Handed style used). But if Flanking and CB penalties will be stackable, you'll be able to apply INSTANT -37 Deflection penalty (-10 from Flanked, -3 from initial CB penalty, and -24 from 8 projectiles triggered) with dual Blunderbusses, and raise it to -43 within next 2 sec. just landing two additional hits on enemy.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Phenomenum

[MaxQuest]

The synergy between Blunderbuss and Confounding Blind is well know. As is with Resonant Touch))

But that's more related to blunderbuss than to CB itself)

 

Also there is a comparison between Gouging Strike and Confounding Blind; where Gouging Strike deals 3 raw damage / per 3s until the combat end, and lowers enemy deflection right of the bat. That said I didn't expect CB to stack up to 11 times; and do agree that -43 deflection compared to the current expected maximum of -30 malus is a bit too much. Personally I would prefer flanked malus to be considered passive and stack with everything, while CB getting limited at 10 or 8 effective stacks.

[Phenomenum]

We can do Flanking passive and 10 stacks for CB, but with step of 2 (2*10). So Flanking Debuff (-10) and CB Max value (-20) = -30 total Deflection.

[theBalthazar]

Quote

but his topic full of wrong information, based on his own speculations and conclusions, but no proper testing. No offence, i say. 

In fact, the topic talk of one thing. The supressed effect of one ability. In don't see where there is a wrong info.

You can tell me the limit arrive too quickly for you, yes. and there is no debate on a "feeling". But don't tell me this is wrong... There is a picture where the effect is supressed.

For all the situation possible (lot of projectiles or not) , I think an immediate stack effect is better for no projectiles, even with a reduced amount.

Edited April 28, 2019 by theBalthazar

[Phenomenum]

36 minutes ago, theBalthazar said:

There is a picture where the effect is supressed. 

No agruments here. But effect is tricky and if we make it simply stackable, we just create another exploit. This is not what i want.

How you feelin' about stackable -10 from Flanking and -2*10 from CB for total -30?

Edited April 28, 2019 by Phenomenum

[theBalthazar]

Already give my idea highter :

I prefer a low value but effective at the start. To avoid few situations where there is no bonus at all, when flanking is active.

So -2 can be a good start.

Generally I am a fan of "all value works" (= all stack) EVEN with a reduced amount. (if the value must be reduced obviously) Because this is better for theory crafting and the "feeling" of a true bonus. ("Oh no my bonus is cancelled, too bad")

And if there a stack effect, I am not against up to -4. It is a good number. -2 to -4 is the good ampan. So -2 or -3 are the best bet.

If there is no stack now : Perhaps double the actual value : -6x3. (-6 + -6 = -2 in to hit if we count Flanked, the third add -6 etc. But stay... strong. Don't work really if the two first hit are reduced)

Edited April 28, 2019 by theBalthazar

[dunehunter]

An easy fix would make Confounding Strike starting with -10 deflection penalty and extra -2 with each hit. Everyone will be happy now

[Phenomenum]

Calm down guys, both Flanking debuffs - AR & Deflection - will be stackable with everything. 100%. Take it into account for your suggestions.

[MaxQuest]

^ Afaik -1AR from flanked is already considered as passive no? For example I remember it stacking with Rust Armor or Rending Smash (mace modal).

In either case, I think it would make sense to make -10 deflection from flanked a passive as well... because it's not a modal, and... passive. Duh. 

 

As for Confounding Blind progression, I would probably prefer ability to stack up to -24/-25 deflection malus with it. Because of Divine Mark which can provide -25 deflection.

So... 3x8 or 2x12...

[Phenomenum]

43 minutes ago, MaxQuest said:

^ Afaik -1AR from flanked is already considered as passive no? For example I remember it stacking with Rust Armor or Rending Smash (mace modal).

In either case, I think it would make sense to make -10 deflection from flanked a passive as well... because it's not a modal, and... passive. Duh. 

 

As for Confounding Blind progression, I would probably prefer ability to stack up to -24/-25 deflection malus with it. Because of Divine Mark which can provide -25 deflection.

So... 3x8 or 2x12...

I set "StackWithAllSimilarDataEffects" for both. Just in case)

3x8 or 2x12... - 10 Flanked = -34. Vanilla max penalty is -33. Sounds fine by me.

[Frykas]

On 4/28/2019 at 4:28 PM, Phenomenum said:

I set "StackWithAllSimilarDataEffects" for both. Just in case)

3x8 or 2x12... - 10 Flanked = -34. Vanilla max penalty is -33. Sounds fine by me.

Hi, I recently found an issue with flanked stacking rules that unfortunately is not resolved with the change issued by CP. The issue is: when target is stunned -10 Def stacks with flanked -10 Def from Persistant distraction, however, when the target is blinded by any other source and therfore flanked by stronger effect, it no longer stacks with flanked. This causes the enemy to have a seeming 10 Def spike when upgrading distracted debuff to blinded.

Any thoughts as how I might fix this? (thoroughly tested with diffrent sources of blinding the enemy on cre_dummies)