Political Point and Counterpoint

[Raithe]

[Gromnir]

 

this is exact the kinda stuff which worries us.  am personal in favor o' assault weapon bans, but if nz did in two days you also know there weren't any kinda serious debate 'bout the issue.  maybe you don't think there needs be debate, but shouldn't folks get at least a chance to weigh in and pose opposing arguments?  even then, the simple practical aspects o' an assault weapons ban probable deserves some consideration, no? commit to do w/o serious consideration o' how to do sounds a tiny bit irresponsible.  is not as if this were a genuine national emergency-- don't pass and another fifty die tomorrow? has been decades since nz had a mass shooting o' this kind.   

 

more bothersome is banning Nazis from entering a country. now keep in mind, Australia has a national socialist party, so am thinking samswey is speaking o' immigration and visitors to Australia.  milo whatshisface and others have been banned from entering Australia for character reasons, with those character issues being statements or actions which is pro-Nazi. have mentioned before how the US is different insofar as free speech and free religion is concerned.  even so, immigrants and non-citizens do not have same speech rights as US citizens.  deportation o' illegal immigrants has been deemed ok by the Court when reason for the deportation is limited to the immigrants political activities. wasn't 'til relative recent the Court, by dicta, said in cases o' outrageous government behavior, non citizens could avail themselves o' free speech protections related to political activity.  regardless, any number o' white supremacist groups is considered terrorist groups and as such, foreigners with affiliations to such groups has been barred from US entry for a long arse time.  suggest such Australian limits is a contrast to US is hardly accurate.

 

as for public shaming.

 

…

 

am not certain what constitutes public shaming. what we tend to think o' as public shaming is typical rendered meaningless by the polarization o' US politics in 2019. there were widespread condemnation o' pu$$y grab comments by trump, but... nothing actual happened. converse, some relative minor infractions o' the unwritten PC Bible may carry career ending consequences. an untenured professor at ______ university laments how there ain't any noteworthy American woman novelists pre 1920. now, the professor is specific arguing how it were lack o' opportunity for woman authors to be recognized 'cause is not as if women in the US sudden evolved novel writing talents post 1910, nevertheless, the prof is fired 'cause o' campus-wide student uproar. 'cause the US don't have government punishments for social unacceptable viewpoints, public shaming should be where folks suffer for their bad actions.  doesn't work as one might expect.  paradox o' 2019 public shaming is that it has become both excessive and ineffectual.  

 

am knowing responding to twitter-length arguments as if such serious is a waste.  am gonna continue to fight the tide.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited March 19, 2019 by Gromnir

[ShadySands]

Speaking of public shaming

[Zoraptor]

FFS, we haven't banned assault weapons in 2 days. Watching overseas ignorami opine about our gun laws etc etc has been far from an edifying experience since they fail to get even the most basic facts correct most of the time- and are far more interested in firing off zingers at their domestic political opponents than getting things right.

 

Assault rifles have been banned here for ages, all you can buy is a semi auto that looks like an AK or AR-15. The main problem in Christchurch was that while it's illegal to own 30 round mags with an A cat license it isn't illegal to sell 30 round mags, so 30 round mags got sold. That's the sum total of the loophole which was exploited, albeit it's a ludicrously moronic loophole to allow.

 

30 round mags can only legally be owned if you have an E cat license, and you're not getting one of those as a member of the general public.

 

Honestly, if you lined people up here- or most places elsewhere- and asked them to ban two guns out of our semi auto AK/ AR15 models and a WW2 M1 Garand they'd instantly pick the 2 'assault rifles' despite the Garand being far more dangerous, because the Garand looks like a bunny buster and not an assault rifle.

Edited March 19, 2019 by Zoraptor

[Gromnir]

FFS, we haven't banned assault weapons in 2 days. Watching overseas ignorami opine about our gun laws etc etc has been far from an edifying experience since they fail to get even the most basic facts correct most of the time- and are far more interested in firing off zingers at their domestic political opponents than getting things right.

 

 

 

you do realize your description is familiar to anybody in the US.  assault weapons is an unspecific term, but full-auto weapons has been universally banned here for a long time. 

 

but speaking o' ignorance, the ar-15 IS a semi-auto weapon.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[ShadySands]

Watching overseas ignorami opine about our gun laws etc etc has been far from an edifying experience since they fail to get even the most basic facts correct most of the time- and are far more interested in firing off zingers at their domestic political opponents than getting things right.

 

 

I got a chuckle over the thoughts and prayers bit but I understand your frustrations as we go through the same thing here as Gromnir already pointed out.

[Gromnir]

 

Watching overseas ignorami opine about our gun laws etc etc has been far from an edifying experience since they fail to get even the most basic facts correct most of the time- and are far more interested in firing off zingers at their domestic political opponents than getting things right.

 

 

I got a chuckle over the thoughts and prayers bit but I understand your frustrations as we go through the same thing here as Gromnir already pointed out.

 

 

as you and others have observed, get folks to understand ar in ar-15 does not = assault rifle would be a good start for getting some rationality injected into the debate, but am not optimistic.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/81036-the-general-firearms-thread/?p=1820616

 

this is one o' those oft-repeated issues on these boards, but is curious how nomenclature is a kinda fundamental obstacle to any sorta progress. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zoraptor]

 

 

but speaking o' ignorance, the ar-15 IS a semi-auto weapon.

 

No kidding, but the AK on the other hand is notoriously an auto weapon even if the models sold here are mechanically s/a same way as an AR15 is. No disambiguation and people would think I meant full auto AKs were legal. Point is, of course, that the AR15 looks like a M16 and an AK semi auto looks like an assault rifle version. Neither version sold here is automatic, neither can be retrofitted to their military equivalent.

 

Can't say I'm surprised you'd try for a zinger, equally unsurprised you missed.

 

Don't think I've ever opined about US gun laws either except in an abstract manner, as it isn't my business. I debunked some doctored pro gun statistics someone posted here once, but then I'd debunk doctored stats on paint drying.

 

And since I didn't state it explicitly last post, literally nothing has changed legally in the past 3 days as parliament wasn't even sitting over the weekend.

Edited March 19, 2019 by Zoraptor

[Guard Dog]

I don't get much into a twist how folks in other countries handle their business. Like Zorp said, not my business. The rush the crack down on firearms ownership is just punishing people who have done no wrong because of someone who did. But it's their show. Try that s--t here and we have a problem. But very few countries have the right to firearms ownership codified right in it's founding document. 

[ShadySands]

and now all I can think about is "Hail Zorp!" from Parks and Rec

Edited March 19, 2019 by ShadySands

[Gromnir]

 

 

Can't say I'm surprised you'd try for a zinger, equally unsurprised you missed.

 

 

*chuckle*

 

"Assault rifles have been banned here for ages, all you can buy is a semi auto that looks like an AK or AR-15."

 

again, the ar-15 is semi-auto.  bad grammar will be the excuse?  don't need to go all tim apple on us.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zoraptor]

Typical Gromnir, 50 people dead and the most important thing is trying to nitpick. And you even manage to fail at that. It's almost like the misleading stats I debunked were your misleading stats and you've been nursing yet another grudge for years.

 

But anyway, it's not even grammatically incorrect since most of the AR15s sold here aren't actual AR15s, they're knock offs. So are the AKs for that matter, most are Norinco copies rather than Izhmash (as was).

[Gromnir]

Typical Gromnir, 50 people dead and the most important thing is trying to nitpick. And you even manage to fail at that. It's almost like the misleading stats I debunked were your misleading stats and you've been nursing yet another grudge for years.

 

But anyway, it's not even grammatically incorrect since most of the AR15s sold here aren't actual AR15s, they're knock offs. So are the AKs for that matter, most are Norinco copies rather than Izhmash (as was).

 

got a funny memory.  every once in a while we gotta take the old rolled up newspaper to zor, but regardless, trying to wrap your blunder in the tragedy o' fifty corpses demeans you more than it does Gromnir.  were absolute no reason to turn this into a tim apple.  is a common mistake to think the ar-15 is something other than a semi-auto weapon. common.  still a mistake. try and gain sympathy by deflecting is classic zor tactic and increasing transparent with each passing iteration, but am admitting this maudlin protest is jejune.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

[Raithe]

See, and here I am just amused by the "thoughts and prayers" point more than anything else... Maybe I should have just dropped that in funny things thread instead of here.

[Gromnir]

See, and here I am just amused by the "thoughts and prayers" point more than anything else... Maybe I should have just dropped that in funny things thread instead of here.

 

we did chuckle at the "thoughts and prayers," but assumed from context it were a joke.  then again, if were serious, is even more funny. kinda can't miss on the humor.

 

but aren't you shamefaced for pointing out funny when there is 50 people dead?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am hopeful is clear we do not believe raithe should need be ashamed for reposting a funny.

[Chilloutman]

John Oliver talking about public shaming is rich tho

[Guard Dog]

This might be too small scale and US centric to elicit much comment. But I am curious to hear opinions. In 2017 & 2018 the city of Minneapolis banned zoning for "single family" homes city wide. Meaning all new construction must be town houses, duplexes. triplexes, or condo. The idea is to lower the cost of housing... at gunpoint. Now I have a real problem with forced solutions like this. If there are more buyers than houses the cost of houses goes up. Which incentivizes builders to build more houses until there are more houses than buyers which means the price of houses goes down. It's really simple. 

 

Now Oregon wants to do this state wide (applicable only within city limits of cities over 10k). And Los Angeles is looking at going a step further and eliminating the requirement to build parking for housing like this. Now this will likely never affect me because hell will freeze solid before I ever live within a city limit again. And I have no intention of ever selling my house and moving. But as a real estate investor it does have my attention. It puts my back up more than a little bit to see politicians who generally know very little about real estate and economics in general applying heave handed nonsense like this. The short term effect will be to lower housing cost because inventory will exceed demand pretty quickly. But making it less profitable to back new construction likely ends up having the reverse effect long term. As construction falls off buyers will end up paying the equivalent of a single family home cost today to get a unit 1/2 or 1/3 of the size. 

[Gfted1]

New Zealand wants answers from Mark Zuckerberg over mosque attack video.

 

"Squee squee! Ban all video!"

[Gromnir]

 If there are more buyers than houses the cost of houses goes up. Which incentivizes builders to build more houses until there are more houses than buyers which means the price of houses goes down. It's really simple. 

 

 

 

part o' the problem is, in spite o' basic economics, prices is being artificial inflated and demand is being rendered meaningless.  artificial increase supply won't help if the folks capable o' buying homes refuse to live in any but a few specific locales or neighborhoods.  to make matters worse, it literal takes years to build anything in the vast majority o' cities... save for houston, but who wants to live in houston?  permits and regulations has been the biggest problem for builders.  is too expensive and time consuming to build anything but the sooper-expensive luxury condo buildings.  is not best example, but build reasonable priced 100 houses requires more fees and takes more time than build a 200 unit luxury condo building. so if you are a builder, do you build houses or luxury condos?

 

additional restrictions is a bass ackwards solution to a problem in part driven by overregulation.  

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottbeyer/2017/09/27/the-great-urban-myth-cities-cant-build-their-way-to-affordable-housing/#77c906b53ffc

 

that said, there is a growing crisis with urban housing and the general increase in housing values is making so only the affluent may afford to live in urban.  the folks least able to afford travel costs associated with a commuter lifestyle (poor and lower middle-class) is being forced by economics to move further away from urban areas. to make matters worse, cities has become so dependent on monies from fees and inspections (not to mention the attendant graft,) they is gonna find any alternative to more obvious and sane solutions to housing issues. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[smjjames]

@ GD and Gromnir: Speaking of housing, in last nights CNN town hall, Elizabeth Warren in response to a question about lowering rents basically went 'lets build five million new houses' (there wasn't much detail put into it). My first thought on that was 'um, housing bubble? Wasn't a housing bubble partly the reason for the 'great recession'?' Plus, it doesn't seem like just building 5 million more will help lower rents, you can build as many houses as you want, but it's not really going to change local conditions all that much.

 

The town halls are fine for airing ideas, but they don't get debated and contested.

[Gfted1]

We should follow the Chinese example and just start building cities for nobody. It will keep us busy and they will eventually fill up. 

[Malcador]

Hm if they have to pick 2, the two more modern weapons would be a smart idea. Garand has the issue of no partial reloading, weight. And the other two can be altered for another mode (difficulty aside).

 

Suppose, the round it fires is more dangerous than the .223 the AR15 would.

[Gfted1]

Actually, I believe the .223 is considered an "unhumane" round because it tumbles on impact, which creates a much larger wound channel.

[Pidesco]

@ GD and Gromnir: Speaking of housing, in last nights CNN town hall, Elizabeth Warren in response to a question about lowering rents basically went 'lets build five million new houses' (there wasn't much detail put into it). My first thought on that was 'um, housing bubble? Wasn't a housing bubble partly the reason for the 'great recession'?' Plus, it doesn't seem like just building 5 million more will help lower rents, you can build as many houses as you want, but it's not really going to change local conditions all that much.

 

The town halls are fine for airing ideas, but they don't get debated and contested.

 

The housing bubble wasn't a construction bubble, it was a lending bubble. Lenders were giving loans to everyone that could breathe which drove up prices, which drove up the loaned amounts, which drove up the premiums, which house owners couldn't pay, which crashed the economy. This may have driven up construction as well, but if so, that was a consequence of the bubble, not a cause.

[HoonDing]

just ban all australians entering the country until we figure out what the hell's going on