BS skeleton fight

[Kilburn]

whats up with eyestrike and wiffing? 

 

If it misses the initial target the aoe also doesnt get a chance to roll? pretty crap spell compared to chill fog. duration sucks too. 

[thelee]

whats up with eyestrike and wiffing? 

 

If it misses the initial target the aoe also doesnt get a chance to roll? pretty crap spell compared to chill fog. duration sucks too. 

 

Possibly any effect that has a target plus an aoe will need to connect with the initial target for the aoe to actually happen. Beam spells are an exception, because the beam effect is automatic and they just check to affect the target at every "tick." Pillar of Faith is definitely like eyestrike (checks to roll for damage on main target, and only if it connects will the aoe prone effect kick in... and because the two effects target different defenses, it's worth targeting a low-reflex target just to make sure hte prone (targets fortitude instead) happens). I think Mental Binding or Fetid Caress (also target + aoe effects) do something similar. I could be wrong or missing some exceptions.

Edited February 19, 2019 by thelee

[Boeroer]

They do. But actually no cipher spell is untargeted (you can't target the ground). So it's not a special feature of Eyestrike. PoE's Mindblades had a problem that it wouldn't jump further if you missed or if one enemy died from it. Luckily they fixed that in Deadfire.

 

I usually target the enemy with the weakest Fort. defense with Eyestrike. That should be the one I hit with a Morning Star and some Secret Horrors first.

 

It is of course not as potent as Chillfog. But while you are limited to 2 friendly-fire Chillfogs per encounter you can cast Eyestrike over and over again since it's only 10 focus. A Beguiler usually gets a lot more focus from it than it costs. And it doesn't harm your teammates. Like Curse of the Blackened Sight basically.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Boeroer

[merkmerk73]

Eyestrike sucks because of the horrendous casting time

[merkmerk73]

I wish Obsidian would rebalance POTD Port Maje while they are still polishing the game. The difficulty is out of line compared to rest of the Deadfire and PoE1 POTD difficulty. That kind level of difficulty isn't fun or interesting when your options are extremely limited, and it's a bottleneck PoE1 POTD didn't have and was better for it. It also immersion breaking to have some of the hardest fights in the game on the tutorial island.

 

Who would win, the slayer of Thaos/Dragons/Concelhaut/Llengrath, or 8 shooty bois from the grocery gang?

[bringingyouthefuture]

 

I wish Obsidian would rebalance POTD Port Maje while they are still polishing the game. The difficulty is out of line compared to rest of the Deadfire and PoE1 POTD difficulty. That kind level of difficulty isn't fun or interesting when your options are extremely limited, and it's a bottleneck PoE1 POTD didn't have and was better for it. It also immersion breaking to have some of the hardest fights in the game on the tutorial island.

 

Who would win, the slayer of Thaos/Dragons/Concelhaut/Llengrath, or 8 shooty bois from the grocery gang?

 

Nemnok's henchmen ...

Edited February 19, 2019 by bringingyouthefuture

[Boeroer]

Eyestrike sucks because of the horrendous casting time

Eh? It has a casting time of 3 secs base and a recovery of only 2 secs base (that's 1 sec faster than a light weapon).

Overall it takes you 5 sec base to complete casting and recovery. 

 

As comparison:

• Eyestrike: 3+2 = 5
• Mind Wave: 3+4 = 7
• Whisper of Treason: 3+3 = 6
• Tenous Grasp: 0.5+4 = 4.5
• Phantom Foes: 0.5+4 = 4.5
• Mental Binding: 0.5+4 = 4.5
• Puppet Mater: 3+4 = 7

 So why is it "horrendous"?

Edited February 19, 2019 by Boeroer

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

eyestrike is great, it's a first-level, tier 3 AoE Debuff that also gives flanked and other stuff too. It's dandy. Nothing wrong with Eyestrike. The tough call is between eyestrike and phantom foes (weaker effect, much larger AoE).

 

Edit: yeah blind is common but Blind is still a very very powerful effect for CC in deadfire.  It's also got a decently long duration .

Edited February 19, 2019 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[merkmerk73]

Saying it's a T3 debuff is kind of meaningless because blind is given out like candy in Deadfire - in fact it's actually difficult to find the T1 or T2 perception debuffs on most characters. I'm pretty sure my fighter/ranger/paladin/druid/priest party doesn't have a single perception debuff that isn't blind.

 

The cast time is ridiculous when lots of other cipher abilities cast much faster and are more powerful.

 

IIRC it also targets fortitude, which tends to be the highest defenses of targets you're going to want to blind in the first place

 

Long cast times are also awful because they're more susceptible to interruption, so I don't really care much about the recovery time differences.

Edited February 19, 2019 by merkmerk73

[thelee]

Saying it's a T3 debuff is kind of meaningless because blind is given out like candy in Deadfire - in fact it's actually difficult to find the T1 or T2 perception debuffs on most characters. I'm pretty sure my fighter/ranger/paladin/druid/priest party doesn't have a single perception debuff that isn't blind.

 

The cast time is ridiculous when lots of other cipher abilities cast much faster and are more powerful.

 

IIRC it also targets fortitude, which tends to be the highest defenses of targets you're going to want to blind in the first place

 

Long cast times are also awful because they're more susceptible to interruption, so I don't really care much about the recovery time differences.

 

Maybe a higher-level cipher has a lot more action economy concerns, but for an ability at that ability level and for only 10 focus (with possible lots gained back for a beguiler) the cast time and effect seem in line with the other effects at that level (except maybe whispers, because charm is frequently way more powerful than even other T3 afflictions). Play styles may differ, but personally Eyestrike is one of only a handful of AL1 cipher abilities I would actually continue to use later into the game (along with Whispers and Tenuous).

Edited February 19, 2019 by thelee

[Boeroer]

Exactly

[Verde]

Least we can all agree that Haunting Chains is garbo, everything considered.

[Kilburn]

why is blind so overpowered? That's a long list of **** it does. Its not much fun when you feel you either win a fight because of blinding the enemy or lose it because you were blinded. 

 

I tested cipher some more because of boeroers comments and i still think it sucks. Rogue does everything better. cipher spells are all terrible. I shouldnt need to hit him with morningstar debuff before the spell becomes useful. 

 

Is it possible to beat higher level enemies at lower levels? It feels almost impossible. this game almost has an MMO feeling because of that. Keep in mind im playing upscaled POTD with some magrans challenges clicked on. 

 

Is it possible to beat Torkar with a party of level 5s? They slice my guy with 80 deflection and 13 armour like butter. Not whining about it, just wondering if it's possible at that level and what party they used. 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Kilburn

[thelee]

why is blind so overpowered? That's a long list of **** it does. Its not much fun when you feel you either win a fight because of blinding the enemy or lose it because you were blinded.

it's powerful because it's a tier 3 affliction, though in all honesty the other tier 3 afflictions can be way worse (though blind can feel punishing because the durations are longer)

 

I tested cipher some more because of boeroers comments and i still think it sucks. Rogue does everything better. cipher spells are all terrible. I shouldnt need to hit him with morningstar debuff before the spell becomes useful.

rogue and ciphers are different combat roles, maybe you just prefer the play style of a rogue? that's fine, but to me the idea of "rogue does everything better [than a cipher]" makes no sense to me because what rogues do is very different from ciphers.

 

edit: also, spells are useful without weapon-modal debuffs, take it from me (700+ hours of gameplay). boeroer is mentioning strategy. -25 debuff can take spells from useful to insanely good, even against targets that have no business being affected by that spell. (i've literally chain paralyzed megabosses with a -25 debuff modal)

 

Is it possible to beat higher level enemies at lower levels? It feels almost impossible. this game almost has an MMO feeling because of that. Keep in mind im playing upscaled POTD with some magrans challenges clicked on.

 

Is it possible to beat Torkar with a party of level 5s? They munch my guy with 80 deflection and 13 armour like butter.

on PotD I would say that it's only really feasible for non-insanely-good people (nb. in case you think I'm about to gloat, I would also put myself in this "not-insanely-good" category) to beat higher-level enemies at lower levels if the overall encounter is actually targeting your level. What I mean by that is that an encounter might target level 5 but have a few level 8s, at which point I would consider those level 8s eminently feasible. Torkar, meanwhile, is a bounty targeting level 14, which is way above your level, a fact that probably isn't altogether clear because it's probably showing as just three skulls (the max displayable); with downscaling enabled it might not even show skulls despite the fact that it would only downscale to at most level 10. Personally, on PotD+upscaling I would be hard pressed to do it at level 10-11 and, not to sound arrogant or condescending, I would be hella impressed if you could manage it at even that level, much less level 5.

 

PotD encounters are so intense that until I got really used to the quest difficulties I actually refered to this thread https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/98843-level-scaling-difficulty-potdcompilation-thread/page-3 there's a table halfway down that lists the "target levels" for each quest (though this doesn't cover DLCs). For a newish PotD+upscaling experience, I would personally stay away from a quest until you are at least +1 level from the target level.

 

edit: if torkar himself is level 14, he at least has 79 accuracy, so your 80 deflection is a moot point in terms of defense (it just means torkar "only" has a 4% chance to crit you). he probably also has level-scaled weapons, so has +8 or +12 accuracy (up to 12 or 14% chance to crit). add in buffs or perception stat and 80 deflection doesn't seem that notable at all. add in all the other adds he has, and that would quickly obliterate your party methinks.

Edited February 20, 2019 by thelee

[Kilburn]

 

why is blind so overpowered? That's a long list of **** it does. Its not much fun when you feel you either win a fight because of blinding the enemy or lose it because you were blinded.

it's powerful because it's a tier 3 affliction, though in all honesty the other tier 3 afflictions can be way worse (though blind can feel punishing because the durations are longer)

 

I tested cipher some more because of boeroers comments and i still think it sucks. Rogue does everything better. cipher spells are all terrible. I shouldnt need to hit him with morningstar debuff before the spell becomes useful.

rogue and ciphers are different combat roles, maybe you just prefer the play style of a rogue? that's fine, but to me the idea of "rogue does everything better [than a cipher]" makes no sense to me because what rogues do is very different from ciphers.

 

edit: also, spells are useful without weapon-modal debuffs, take it from me (700+ hours of gameplay). boeroer is mentioning strategy. -25 debuff can take spells from useful to insanely good, even against targets that have no business being affected by that spell. (i've literally chain paralyzed megabosses with a -25 debuff modal)

 

Is it possible to beat higher level enemies at lower levels? It feels almost impossible. this game almost has an MMO feeling because of that. Keep in mind im playing upscaled POTD with some magrans challenges clicked on.

 

Is it possible to beat Torkar with a party of level 5s? They munch my guy with 80 deflection and 13 armour like butter.

on PotD I would say that it's only really feasible for non-insanely-good people (nb. in case you think I'm about to gloat, I would also put myself in this "not-insanely-good" category) to beat higher-level enemies at lower levels if the overall encounter is actually targeting your level. What I mean by that is that an encounter might target level 5 but have a few level 8s, at which point I would consider those level 8s eminently feasible. Torkar, meanwhile, is a bounty targeting level 14, which is way above your level, a fact that probably isn't altogether clear because it's probably showing as just three skulls (the max displayable); with downscaling enabled it might not even show skulls despite the fact that it would only downscale to at most level 10. Personally, on PotD+upscaling I would be hard pressed to do it at level 10-11 and, not to sound arrogant or condescending, I would be hella impressed if you could manage it at even that level, much less level 5.

 

PotD encounters are so intense that until I got really used to the quest difficulties I actually refered to this thread https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/98843-level-scaling-difficulty-potdcompilation-thread/page-3 there's a table halfway down that lists the "target levels" for each quest (though this doesn't cover DLCs). For a newish PotD+upscaling experience, I would personally stay away from a quest until you are at least +1 level from the target level.

 

edit: if torkar himself is level 14, he at least has 79 accuracy, so your 80 deflection is a moot point in terms of defense (it just means torkar "only" has a 4% chance to crit you). he probably also has level-scaled weapons, so has +8 or +12 accuracy (up to 12 or 14% chance to crit). add in buffs or perception stat and 80 deflection doesn't seem that notable at all. add in all the other adds he has, and that would quickly obliterate your party methinks.

 

 

 

I gotta hand it to obsidian, they're keeping me more interested than pillars 1. I broke the game at level 5 in pillars 1. what is the most useful modal debuff? 

 

melee cipher and melee rogue do seem quite similar. rogue has sneak attack cipher has soul whip. They even gave cipher rogue skills to start like mechanics streetwise etc. 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Kilburn

[Boeroer]

Torkar on PotD (not even upscaled) is maybe impossible with a lvl 5 party. I mean what's impossible - you could apply some DoTs like Bleeding Cuts maybe and then kite and cheese him to death I guess - or do some other game-mechanics-cheese. But it's nigh impossible to win a "normal" face-to-face fight against him if you are only lvl 5 (even more so if you are lvl 5 and your hirelings are lvl 4).

 

First of all there are too many ads - lots of ranged, too. Those are deadly if they come in numbers because they can always reach you no matter chokepoints etc. All of the ads are like 8+ levels higher than you. And the guy itself wears that belt that lets him heal one time once he's near death.

 

I like to do him early, but lvl 5 is just too much of a tedium to try it more than a few times.

 

Weapon modals help a lot to win fights against high level enemies. Not using them and then complaining about high difficulty is like being a mechanic and complaining that the screws are hard to pull with your fingernails.

 

Rogues can certainly not do everything better than a cipher. THey can't do support and they can't do crowd control. They can't debuff in an AoE (atm not even with AoE weapons) except with Smoke Cloud etc. Actually when thinking about it they can't do even few things that a cipher can do.

My guess is that you don't utilize a cipher properly. They are not as good as single target dps machines like rogues are - but that's not their main role.

 

One Whisper of Treason or Puppet Master (even better if cast from stealth to initiate encounter) can turn the tide. Can't say that about any of the rogue's abilites except his invisibility abilites and the Trickster's high level stuff.

 

And I say that while not even being a big fan of ciphers in general.

 

Least we can all agree that Haunting Chains is garbo, everything considered.

Haunting Chains... yeah I don't get it as well. Seems like a complete waste of ability points But maybe I'm overlooking something. Like Fractured Volition - that's also... "errrm?" Edited February 20, 2019 by Boeroer

[AeonsLegend]

Party setup, build and equipment make all the difference. Early game can be excrutiatingly hard or a cakewalk, with just a different MC. I found that Ciphers early game are simply overpowering everything on Port Maje Island. I haven't done it solo, but I finished Gorecci Street with just my MC Cipher and Eder Swashbuckler on PotD. It wasn't easy, but if you can charm the enemy it becomes doable.

 

Also Boeroer. I played an Ascendant recently and the amount of raw damage that sucker puts out in the late game, critting enemies left and right with disintegrate is just disgusting. all you need is a wall in front of you (Pallegina and Eder) and then just go have a coffee when you've put disintegrate on your enemies. At max level you can add Death of 1000 cuts for even more juicy free damage.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Haunting Chains... yeah I don't get it as well. Seems like a complete waste of ability points But maybe I'm overlooking something. Like Fractured Volition - that's also... "errrm?"

 

 

 

I suspect whoever drafted that power either just didn't look at wizard abilities at all, or else forgot to make it an AOE. Also possible that in initial testing it was a large AOE and deemed too powerful so they nerfed it down to uselessness in the Alpha planning to come back to it later and never did. There's really no explanation for how awful it is other than everyone just forgetting it because it was so awful nobody cared about it.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[thelee]

Least we can all agree that Haunting Chains is garbo, everything considered.

Haunting Chains... yeah I don't get it as well. Seems like a complete waste of ability points But maybe I'm overlooking something. Like Fractured Volition - that's also... "errrm?"

 

 

Fractured Volition seems like one of those abilities that didn't survive the transition to Deadfire very well (much like Mind Plague imo which used to be amazeballs in PoE1). I used Fractured Volition a bit in PoE1 because it was a great way to do -20(+) all non-deflection defenses and keep enemies from barely moving. In Deadfire, there are more ways to debuff defenses, and Hobbled and Weakened don't do nearly as much defense lowering as they used to.

 

Haunting Chains is alright... it's a lengthy hard-CC and I'll never kick a long duration hard-CC out of bed. I remember picking it up on one of my Ydwins and it wasn't bad (though was annoying because this was early on in my Deadfire career and at AL9 I was fully expecting it to be a bounce or aoe spell and was disappointed when it wasn't).

Edited February 20, 2019 by thelee

[Boeroer]

Ryngrim's Enervating Terror does Weaken and Terrify in an AoE at PL 5 for 15 secs base while Hauning Chains does Hobble and Terrify on a single target at PL 9 for 20 sec. At PL 9 Enervating Terror has basically the same duration as Hauntuing Chains due to PL scaling.

 

I know: Ryngrim's is maybe too strong... but still. Haunting Chain is def. too weak for a PL 9 ability. A smallish 1.5m radius would make it ok. Barely.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Boeroer

[thelee]

Ryngrim's Enervating Terror does Weaken and Terrify in an AoE at PL 5 for 15 secs base while Hauning Chains does Hobble and Terrify on a single target at PL 9 for 20 sec. At PL 9 Enervating Terror has basically the same duration as Hauntuing Chains due to PL scaling.

 

I know: Ryngrim's is maybe too strong... but still. Haunting Chain is def. too weak for a PL 9 ability. A smallish 1.5m radius would make it ok. Barely.

 

cross-class comparisons aren't great though. wizards are just a better aoe (damage or debuff) class, ciphers are more narrow and single-target focused. ryngrim's is probably too strong at AL5 (heck the AL3 one is also really good), but more importantly, I wouldn't use a cipher to fulfill the role of a wizard or vice versa. like I said, it's not going to knock my socks off, but I'll never downplay a hard-CC. (also a subtle distinction is that haunting chain targets will which synergizes with some cipher passives. it's not much, but it's something)

[Boeroer]

I wanted to compare it to another long-lasting Terrify effect and Enervating Terror came to mind.

 

I don't know if Cipher is single-target focused. While you have to target an enemy or ally, many of the Powers have a medium (e.g. Secret Horrors) to huge AoE (Phantom Foes, Amplified Wave...). And I would say you can totally compare a Cipher to a Wizard if both are supposed to play the role of a debuffer or crowd controller in your party. See Beguiler vs. Illusionist. 

 

While I think most Cipher Powers are pretty nice and well balanced (and most passives are just great), Haunting Chains is just a waste of an ability point in my opinion. Also when you compare it to the other PL-8 and PL-9 stuff you can take. I would maybe consider it if it was a fast cast, but even that is not the case: 3/3secs. I would maybe take it as a Beguiler since you'll get back a bit of focus and it also works with Empty Soul/Soul's Echo/Complete Self, but only maybe.  

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Yeah, a Beguiler Cipher needs to be as effective at AoE debuffing as anyone else, HC is clearly supposed to be the capstone for that. 

 

 

 

EDIT: VV right right, just meant the "supposed to" as in "it's supposed to be the capstone . . . but it sucks so it isn't" 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Verde]

Yeah, a Beguiler Cipher needs to be as effective at AoE debuffing as anyone else, HC is clearly supposed to be the capstone for that.

Unfortunately it's only single target.

[bringingyouthefuture]

I like to use Fractured Volition on enemy Paladins of Woedica - but that could be more from the irony of it than my theory that it lowers their total health and deflection. ...

 

edit:  I just looked it up and it doesn't reduce deflection at all, but I will settle for the action speed.

Edited February 20, 2019 by bringingyouthefuture