smjjames Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Obama wasn't the one who ballooned the deficit in the first place Gromnir, that was George W. Bush's doing. I don't know where you're getting the idea that he bloated the deficit, he actually decreased it from the Bush years. As for China, yeah, that is going to be an issue, though it's in part inevitable whether or not Trumps tariff stuff exacerbates it because boom times don't last forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Obama wasn't the one who ballooned the deficit in the first place Gromnir, that was George W. Bush's doing. I don't know where you're getting the idea that he bloated the deficit, he actually decreased it from the Bush years. As for China, yeah, that is going to be an issue, though it's in part inevitable whether or not Trumps tariff stuff exacerbates it because boom times don't last forever. https://www.usnews.com/opinion/economic-intelligence/articles/2017-10-02/former-president-barack-obamas-real-economic-record-isnt-pretty the only way you get a decrease for obama is if you use starting point for obama in 2009 and do yearly comparisons. overall, obama has a serious deficit increase. blame bush for fiscal 2009, but rest is on obama. oh, and blame for bush 2009 is actual suspect as he were trying to deal with legacy o' clinton mistakes regarding banking deregulation with little help from Congress. bush tried to reign in deregulation efforts and had a veto overturned-- one o' his biggest political failures. obama has full support o' Congress and nevertheless expands deficit by a massive amount... oh, and same banking nightmares o' 2008 is emerging in 2019. don't be surprised if we get another real estate bubble burst in next couple years 'cause obama failed to fix actual problems while simultaneous vast increased deficit. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smjjames Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 I thought it was due to the recession crash and efforts to fix it and stuff in relation to the wars. At least give him credit for bringing it down to almost the Bush years peak. Though it has been slowly rising since then. It was the Senate I believe rather than Obama directly who tried to fix the crisis, however, the Republican Senate went and rolled back those same fixes (or at least some of them), so, it's back to square one regardless of what Obama did. I haven't heard much about the 2008 troubles reappearing in 2018/2019 other than that the Republicans rolled things back and that it's only a matter of time before it happens all over again. As you said earlier, the main focus of attention is on what's happning in China since one of the major economic engines of the world not doing great should be a concern to everybody. Also, people probably should pay attention to whatever ripple shocks happen after Brexit. It's probably unlikely that it'll destabilize anybody besides the UK, but you never know in the 'whisper from the wings of a butterfly in the Amazon that creates a storm in Africa' sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 I thought it was due to the recession crash and efforts to fix it and stuff in relation to the wars. At least give him credit for bringing it down to almost the Bush years peak. obama's idiotic attempts to fix the recession woes by vast increasing debt with huge deficit spending is exact what am crediting him. in addition to complete misguided foreign policy by obama which we have discussed ad nauseum (and am having no wish to revisit) am also never gonna forgive obama for gutting nasa. set goal of a mars mission by 2035... while cutting nasa budget by 20%? also didn't like how obama ran his campaign 'gainst mccain, but at least those choices were arguable strategic even if low and cheap. etc. obama were not our favorite President. in this day and age, am knowing it seems strange to dislike both obama and trump, but Gromnir is an intellectual free-agent. heck, we have even applauded a couple trump choices so is not as if am incapable o' separating our personal dislike for the flim-flam man occupying the oval office, from his policy decisions. HA! Good Fun! 2 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Deficit spending during a recession is exactly what you should do, assuming the spending is on Sensible Things and to get money into circulation, at least*. What most governments have trouble with is the corollary of that: you should save (pay down debt) when you're in the boom segment of the cycle. Instead leftist governments tend to increase spending more then and rightists decide to cut taxes so you never get around to paying down the debt. Austerity as a response to a recession has been almost completely discredited. It made Britain's recession worse and they still haven't recovered from it and it made Europe's recession worse, only mitigated by Europe's ridiculous economic system which ensures the strongest economies eat the weaker ones making austerity appear to work for the top economies (plus cancerous tax havens). *which it wasn't in that case since it mostly amounted to corporate welfare and printing money for banks and billionaires while everyone else stagnated or worse; so Obama's economic management was crappy, it was just what he spend the deficit spending on which was the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Deficit spending during a recession is exactly what you should do, assuming the spending is on Sensible Things and to get money into circulation, at least*. generalities lose sight of specifics. during obama admin, national debt near doubled, infrastructure spending (such as new deal approach to deficit spending) were curtailed, and taxes on business interests resulted in relative sluggish growth in spite o' huge increase in deficit spending. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 The problem is the deficit money was spent on social welfare for corporations and other stupidities, not that it was deficit money. If they'd spent it on sensible things- and yes, New Deal like infrastructure is a very good example- they'd have had an investment for the money, it would have been spread around instead of concentrated in the hands of a few already rich and the recovery would have been on more sound foundations than the blatant funny money/ share/ housing etc bubbles generated by Chinese pyramid schemes and US money printing that it's based on now while the people who make and buy actual stuff get comparatively poorer and poorer. Obama was crap economically, I 100% agree. He allowed privatised profits but socialised losses from the big companies when he should have been brave and kicked the vested interests who generated the 2008 crisis in the arse. His only excuse is that he genuinely did inherit an utterly borked economy from that even worse economic cretin GWB whose over spending in relatively good times was on even worse stupidities and who had far fewer excuses for his deficit spending. In the end they spent the money on reinforcing the same old mistakes so that the whole thing could repeat itself 10-20 years later just with the average person being far poorer and the top echelon far richer next time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ted-cruz-wants-el-chapo-and-drug-lords-to-pay-for-border-wall Is a bad idea just for the backronym Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton, whomever comes next... it's all irrelevant. Everyone thinks it matters. I used to be the same. It doesn't. THIS matters: http://www.usdebtclock.org/ Tick... tock... tick... tock... No one laughed at Noah when the first drops started to fall "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agiel Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) Before Bezos Fight, Enquirer Publisher AMI Faced Steep Losses It'd be something if Bezos picked up that venture, and the words that would greet customers at the checkouts for supermarkets across America are "TRUMP: SIX MONTHS TO LIVE!" or "IVANKA BACK IN REHAB!" Edited February 13, 2019 by Agiel Quote “Political philosophers have often pointed out that in wartime, the citizen, the male citizen at least, loses one of his most basic rights, his right to life; and this has been true ever since the French Revolution and the invention of conscription, now an almost universally accepted principle. But these same philosophers have rarely noted that the citizen in question simultaneously loses another right, one just as basic and perhaps even more vital for his conception of himself as a civilized human being: the right not to kill.” -Jonathan Littell <<Les Bienveillantes>> Quote "The chancellor, the late chancellor, was only partly correct. He was obsolete. But so is the State, the entity he worshipped. Any state, entity, or ideology becomes obsolete when it stockpiles the wrong weapons: when it captures territories, but not minds; when it enslaves millions, but convinces nobody. When it is naked, yet puts on armor and calls it faith, while in the Eyes of God it has no faith at all. Any state, any entity, any ideology that fails to recognize the worth, the dignity, the rights of Man...that state is obsolete." -Rod Serling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyrock Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) No one laughed at Noah when the first drops started to fall I bet there was at least one dude laughing and saying "It's just a passing shower." Now, my man drowned, but I'm just sayin'. This is why I plan to move to Asheville, NC eventually*. Ocean levels can rise, the next great flood can come, I'll be up here on top of a mountain chillin'. * Also, Asheville is beautiful Edited February 13, 2019 by Keyrock RFK Jr 2024 "Any organization created out of fear must create fear to survive." - Bill Hicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Well, at the first drops of rain I doubt anyone's opinion would change as rain was something people had experienced before. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smjjames Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton, whomever comes next... it's all irrelevant. Everyone thinks it matters. I used to be the same. It doesn't. THIS matters: http://www.usdebtclock.org/ Tick... tock... tick... tock... That and the fact that they keep kicking the debt ceiling oil barrel down the road (I prefer 'oil barrel' to 'can' as kicking a steel barrel would be more painful than a small aluminum can. Plus calling it a can makes the issue smaller than it is.) instead of dealing with it. I don't want to go default on it, that would be the extreme of extreme last resorts, but repeatedly playing chicken with the debt ceiling isn't good in the long run. At some point, neither side is going to blink, or they blink too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton, whomever comes next... it's all irrelevant. Everyone thinks it matters. I used to be the same. It doesn't. THIS matters: http://www.usdebtclock.org/ Tick... tock... tick... tock... That and the fact that they keep kicking the debt ceiling oil barrel down the road (I prefer 'oil barrel' to 'can' as kicking a steel barrel would be more painful than a small aluminum can. Plus calling it a can makes the issue smaller than it is.) instead of dealing with it. I don't want to go default on it, that would be the extreme of extreme last resorts, but repeatedly playing chicken with the debt ceiling isn't good in the long run. At some point, neither side is going to blink, or they blink too late. The outcome is as assured as it is inevitable. Most of the folks in DC believe that as long as the dollar is the world's reserve currency and the currency of international trade it will never collapse. Then they can simple monetize debt (flushing fictional cash into the economy and dealing with inflation and currency devaluation after) whenever they need to. And they are likely right as long as that doesn't change. Meanwhile Bitcoin is beginning to trend upwards again. And a number of nations are beginning to accept bitcoin in trade transactions. I'm sure that's nothing for Americans to worry over right? After all who tweeted what about who is far more important.... tick tock tick tock tick tock.... "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton, whomever comes next... it's all irrelevant. Everyone thinks it matters. I used to be the same. It doesn't. THIS matters: http://www.usdebtclock.org/ Tick... tock... tick... tock... No one laughed at Noah when the first drops started to fall our two biggest us national-level concerns: debt crisis income inequality obama, in eight years, near doubles debt through his application o' misdirected deficit spending efforts and saw a significant acceleration o' income inequality. and yeah, obama isn't the guy to blame for income disparity increases. bill clinton is actual the primary villain for the widening income gap during obama's administration, but obama did little to try and fix the problem neither. is actual rare you are able to point to the President as the guy-to-blame for most economic matters. however, repeal glass-steagall and the like were efforts at bank deregulation spearheaded by bill clinton. yeah, Congress were complicit and bush efforts to reign in fannie-mae and freddie mac were a dismal failure, (credit or blame for trying and failing?) but is not hard to blame clinton when he is the guy who most public and private advocated lifting bank limits which had lasted for seven decades... limits put in place after the first great depression. even so, while is seeming minor in larger scheme, nasa gutting and initial campaign v. mccain is the stuff which bothered us most regarding obama. campaign issues went to quality and character o' the man and nasa... well, am admitting a certain romanticism when it comes to nasa. we can explain value o' nasa to long-term r&d and stem and whatnot, but am admitting to not being complete objective when it comes to us space program. but to more direct respond to gd, in our federal system, it shouldn't matter who comes next. responsibility for crafting legislation should fall to Congress more than next President. unfortunate, the torpor and indolence o' Congress has been increasing for many years. am knowing am repeating self, but will once again observe how is not an enumerated power o' chief executive, but as the most singular visible person in the fed govt, the President has disproportionate influence over the national agenda. with growth o' social media and the 24-hour news cycle, setting agenda has become more significant in recent years. even the most inane comments from a chief executive is gonna reach the ears o' citizens in near real-time. an overwhelming popular President with a mandate from the people would be able to motivate Congress through control o' national agenda, but 2019 US politics is far too divisive for a mandate from the people chief executive to be emerging anytime soon. save for possible national crisis (real one and not border myths) the 2020 President, whoever they is, will take office attempting to lead a deep divided nation. to get anything done at the fed level is gonna require a consensus builder, and am not seeing a consensus builder as appealing to the angry and partisan Americans who will be voting for President during the upcoming cycle. as such, am kinda approaching gd cynicism levels regarding fed even if am coming at such cynicism from a different direction. so, gd wins? huzzah. HA! Good Fun! 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyrock Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Income inequality is a necessary byproduct of free markets and innovation, but it needs to be kept in check and it is snowballing dangerously out of control in the US. If it isn't curbed and soon we're going to end up in a burn it all down and start over scenario, which will be really bloody and terrible. RFK Jr 2024 "Any organization created out of fear must create fear to survive." - Bill Hicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 It has already happened Keyrock. It's done. The train is on the track and heading towards the unfinished bridge. It am still be stopped but it won't be. What the next Congress & President need to do is look the US Electorate in the eye and say "No, you can't have a Green New Deal". "No you can't waste money on walls" "No you cannot have medicare for all". " "No you cannot have free college" "No you cannot kick illegals out or stop them all. We need to get them work permits, get them working and paying taxes" "No you cannot have US troops deployed to 160+ of 206 nation in the world." "No you cannot keep starting or involving yourself in new conflicts" "No you cannot tax income of anyone at 70%. Or owned wealth. It only drives it out of the country" "If the United States is going to survive as a political entity we need to cut spending. By a LOT." "We need to remove impediments to economic growth like tariffs and taxes. We need more free trade not less" "We need to curtail defense spending by a lot. We need to shift defense spending focus away from tactical superiority and refocus on strategic superiority." "We need to gradually reintroduce limitations on banking investments." "After our economy begins to grow and spending deficits begin to decrease THEN we'll talk about public spending on infrastructure." None of the candidates so far are saying this. Tick tock tick tock... "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyrock Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 I don't think we're at the point of no return yet, but we are getting dangerously close. What really scares me are the people in positions of power pushing equity as the solution. Equity is a TERRIBLE idea and will accelerate the coming of bloody revolution greatly. RFK Jr 2024 "Any organization created out of fear must create fear to survive." - Bill Hicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 My advice to everyone everywhere, because the collapse of the dollar if it happens will not just be a US event, is this: Dedicate a portion of your investments to things that have real value and are not tied to any currency. I'm talking about real assets and commodities here. Gold is a little over priced IMO but that is a good example of something. Real estate is my vehicle of choice right now. Don't go into serious debt. If you are already focus on getting out. This is a biggie. If you have equity, don't borrow against it. At least not long term. If you are not learning about blockchain and crypto currency you really need to be. I'm not saying buy into it. But you should have an understanding of what it is and how it works. I have a very strong suspicion that is a game changer in more ways than people realize. Save some of your income right now. This very day if you are not already doing it. Even if expenses are tight, find a way. And put it somewhere safe. An insured savings account if you have no better ideas. A safety deposit box, whatever. Have access to cash in an emergency. Keep at least a weeks worth on nonperishable food in your house if you can. This might make the rest of the list sound paranoid but it' just good sense. I have a stockpile of food, ammunition, and other things most of you would not even believe if I told you the truth about ti. Well, it costs nothing to store stuff like that and better to have it and never need it than the alternative. Just my $.02 "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 In other important news: https://www.sacbee.com/sports/nba/sacramento-kings/article226148250.html tick tock tick tock tick tock.... "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Nah. When the guano hits the air circulator, Im going full Mad Max (Mad Gfted1?) with my family. "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK htiw klaw eriF Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Nah. When the guano hits the air circulator, Im going full Mad Max (Mad Gfted1?) with my family. You're going to work as a cop, feud with a biker gang, and get your family killed before going off into the desert to make the sequel? "Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic "you're a damned filthy lying robot and you deserve to die and burn in hell." - Bartimaeus "Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander "Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador "You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort "thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex "Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock "Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco "we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii "I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing "feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth "Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi "Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor "I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine "I love cheese despite the pain and carnage." - ShadySands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Prolly. 1 "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyrock Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 I drive a semi for a living so when the Mad Max apocalypse comes I'm all set. Granted, it's pretty terrible as far as fuel consumption goes, but it's fantastic for smashing into and through other vehicles. 1 RFK Jr 2024 "Any organization created out of fear must create fear to survive." - Bill Hicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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