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BG2 and POE2 (not what you think)


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#41
IndiraLightfoot

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The Fade as well as big chunks of the Dwarven caverns are well at par with the orcs, and the docks, and the dreadful meandering to bugbear caves and back again. I have to say that you both have found bad cases, so why try to decide a winner? They both were disappointing, yeah?


Edited by IndiraLightfoot, 02 January 2019 - 03:22 PM.


#42
Verde

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It's not really that short tho. That's one of the reasons it's so hated.

I can't recall that NN2 section, but I'm gonna look it up.

#43
Verde

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The Fade as well as big chunks of the Dwarven caverns are well at par with the orcs, and the docks, and the dreadful meandering to bugbear caves and back again. I have to say that you both have found bad cases, so why try to decide a winner? They both were disappointing, yeah?


We are just having fun and debating. I don't sense any hostility, do you?

#44
IndiraLightfoot

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The Fade as well as big chunks of the Dwarven caverns are well at par with the orcs, and the docks, and the dreadful meandering to bugbear caves and back again. I have to say that you both have found bad cases, so why try to decide a winner? They both were disappointing, yeah?


We are just having fun and debating. I don't sense any hostility, do you?

 

You misunderstood me. :)

 

I was simply supporting you guys in underlining that they were all pretty darn bad. I never interpreted you as aggro in any way. I wanted to congratulate you both as winners in this pretty interesting debate.



#45
Verde

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Ah my bad...on a side note I haven't been able to find much info on said bad levels in NWN 2 ha

#46
AFA

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Ah my bad...on a side note I haven't been able to find much info on said bad levels in NWN 2 ha

 

I thought it was Act 2, turns out, that was the best part in the game, with the trial and stuff. It is the second half of Act 1, after the lizardfolk arc. You get to Neverwinter, then the story totally stops and you have to do odd jobs for the guards or the criminals. Then after that, you have to go save some random guy from orcs. These both takes hours, and feature some almost endless battles. The orc arc alone has two long dungeons filled with trash mobs, and you are forced to give one of your precious party slots to the world's most boring paladin.

 

These have nothing to do with the plot what-so-ever. You are basically earning permission to get to the next story relevant part of the city. As mentioned above, the long bugbear dungeon is a side quest in this area as well. The warehouse battle for either side is the worst in the docks. Have to clear like 8 rooms full of either heavy armored guardsmen or sneak-attacking rogues, depending on faction, and you can easily cause them to respawn.


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#47
Triple - A Foxy Lad

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I was specifically comparing Deadfire to Dragonfall on the subject of NPCs. 

 

You can't keep a straight face and say that the NPCs in Deadfire have such good reasons to tag along compared to the NPCs in Dragonfall. 

 

mang i can keep a straight face and say lots of things, most of them to ur dad, but whatevs.

 

point i was making is that we're comparing characters in two games that are operating within extremely different structures, and part of my thang is that i try to highlight these structures when i see them.

 

saying that the content of a smallish game, based in one hub (that u walk around in by urself, incidentally - so less reactivity for the narrative designers to fret about) is better tailored to the *three* companions that are all in ur starting party is a given to the point of banality. Deadfire has to keep infinitely more plates spinning -  so holding it to same standard of coherence and relational depth just isnt useful.

 

dragonfall is excellent at what it does, but is not huge and gameplay wise is not great deal more than a sophisticated VN / flash game. its less complicated than many nwn custom campaigns.

 

like if u want to use dragonfalls success as argument for poe to narrow its focus at expense of doing other things, thats fine - i straight up said earlier, peeps could learn a lot from dragonfall - however ull find others will disagree strongly on poe focusing on such. 

 

also part of poe's appeal for me is that the series is striving to unify and master as many aspects of the crpg as possible. even if this goal might be hubris, its attempts are often fascinating. and part of the reason i keep going back to examine it from different angles.

 

honestly, as much as i enjoy such things in other games, im not sure if i want poe to focus on the fictional family aspect that dragonfall and the bioware rpgs often do. kinda for similar reason i was lukewarm on idea of obs chucking in romance. it just aint what i follow them for.

 

EDIT: fml why cant i type.


Edited by Triple - A Foxy Lad, 02 January 2019 - 08:51 PM.

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#48
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Calling Dragonfall a glorified VN is rather nonsensical so let's agree to disagree. 

 

 

I was specifically comparing Deadfire to Dragonfall on the subject of NPCs. 

 

You can't keep a straight face and say that the NPCs in Deadfire have such good reasons to tag along compared to the NPCs in Dragonfall. 

 

mang i can keep a straight face and say lots of things, most of them to ur dad, but whatevs.

 

I don't care much for your glibness but at least now we've established that you're full of hot air.

 

Thanks for making that point crystal clear. 



#49
daven

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Yep completely agree about NWN2. It always kills my motivation to keep playing in those areas.



#50
AFA

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Yep completely agree about NWN2. It always kills my motivation to keep playing in those areas.

 

I have a save just after the orc quests. When I do a new playthrough, I play up to the docks, export that character, then import them into that save with a save editor. Saves about five hours

 

It would be manageable if it was just the docks, even with the warehouse fight, but the orc slog is uncalled for.


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#51
Triple - A Foxy Lad

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Calling Dragonfall a glorified VN is rather nonsensical so let's agree to disagree.

 

i said 'sophisticated' VN bruv - but obv u know that and anyone who can scroll up knows that.

 

theres stuff made in renpy and flash with full rpg progression, grid based combat, card based combat etc. and dragonfalls lightish turnbased approach - balanced courtesy of a small amount of bespoke encounters and limited options for ur npcs - aint a million miles removed from them.
 
its. not. a. bad. thing. like i aint the type to use VN as an insult. if i ever get the chance, id like to try making one. i probably wont bcs life and laziness but whatevs.
 

I don't care much for your glibness but at least now we've established that you're full of hot air.

 

ROFLMAO. fam, u wrote that 'clever' little prelude about keeping a straight face to shove me on the defensive, so i chucked it back in ur face with interest. what did u think was gonna happen?

 

If u dont want to deal with the counterplay then dont make the play bruv. and certainly dont get on ur damn high horse afterwards when u started it.

 

*we've* established that you're full of hot air.

 

god, my sides. so ur idea of a comeback is to emulate either HRH elizabeth II or a rubbish chemistry teacher tryna control a group of unruly kids. good luck with that.

 

 

Thanks for making that point crystal clear.

 

and u even start preening at the end of ur own **** like ur manures just won 1st place at the rpg debatolympics.

 

sit down.

 

i aint here for a row, and i dont make out im ought but a clown talking in circles, chasing a thought like a dog chases its own tail, but i aint no doormat. if u got **** on ur shoes find someone else to wipe them on.

 

It would be manageable if it was just the docks, even with the warehouse fight, but the orc slog is uncalled for.

 

ye, i didnt mind the docks and moonlighting with the watch. a bit of low level, low concern d&d is my jam. the stuff with the orcs and old owl well would have worked better as side-content imo, an optional quest where u could try out ur comp and kit against hordes of idiot mobs and generally chill out.


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#52
Verde

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Bringing up someone's dad when you know nothing about them is in the wrong...we've all gotten a little tiffed at some pt, don't make it worse, just apologize and move on.

On topic, I've been itching to get back into Dragonfall. It's right up my alley (Neuromancer is my fav book - read it 5 times and have a cool hardcover anniversary edition) but I'm nervous DF will feel very archaic at this pt. Have you played it recently?

Edited by Verde, 04 January 2019 - 02:26 AM.

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#53
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Calling Dragonfall a glorified VN is rather nonsensical so let's agree to disagree.

 

i said 'sophisticated' VN bruv - but obv u know that and anyone who can scroll up knows that.

 

theres stuff made in renpy and flash with full rpg progression, grid based combat, card based combat etc. and dragonfalls lightish turnbased approach - balanced courtesy of a small amount of bespoke encounters and limited options for ur npcs - aint a million miles removed from them.
 
its. not. a. bad. thing. like i aint the type to use VN as an insult. if i ever get the chance, id like to try making one. i probably wont bcs life and laziness but whatevs.
 

I don't care much for your glibness but at least now we've established that you're full of hot air.

 

ROFLMAO. fam, u wrote that 'clever' little prelude about keeping a straight face to shove me on the defensive, so i chucked it back in ur face with interest. what did u think was gonna happen?

 

If u dont want to deal with the counterplay then dont make the play bruv. and certainly dont get on ur damn high horse afterwards when u started it.

 

*we've* established that you're full of hot air.

 

god, my sides. so ur idea of a comeback is to emulate either HRH elizabeth II or a rubbish chemistry teacher tryna control a group of unruly kids. good luck with that.

 

 

Thanks for making that point crystal clear.

 

and u even start preening at the end of ur own **** like ur manures just won 1st place at the rpg debatolympics.

 

sit down.

 

i aint here for a row, and i dont make out im ought but a clown talking in circles, chasing a thought like a dog chases its own tail, but i aint no doormat. if u got **** on ur shoes find someone else to wipe them on.

 

It would be manageable if it was just the docks, even with the warehouse fight, but the orc slog is uncalled for.

 

ye, i didnt mind the docks and moonlighting with the watch. a bit of low level, low concern d&d is my jam. the stuff with the orcs and old owl well would have worked better as side-content imo, an optional quest where u could try out ur comp and kit against hordes of idiot mobs and generally chill out.

 

 

I'm not your "bruv" and you should really take your own advice, sit back and read everything you've posted instead of piling up even more nonsense. 



#54
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Bringing up someone's dad when you know nothing about them is in the wrong...we've all gotten a little tiffed at some pt, don't make it worse, just apologize and move on.

On topic, I've been itching to get back into Dragonfall. It's right up my alley (Neuromancer is my fav book - read it 5 times and have a cool hardcover anniversary edition) but I'm nervous DF will feel very archaic at this pt. Have you played it recently?

 

Neuromancer is one of my favourite scifi books as well. I don't think that you should go in DF expecting Neuromancer the game (in which case you're going to be disappointed). It's still Shadowrun so it's all about the blending of fantasy and cyberpunk. 

 

Dragonfall does hold up as a game and it certainly does have a traditional structure with a hub and quests. I was worried after playing Shadowrun Hong Kong that I wouldn't be able to go back and play Dragonfall but frankly it does work. You may miss some of the addition but it's still the best Shadowrun game made by Harebrained Schemes. 

 

I've been replaying BG and there is no denying that it feels like putting on some comfortable clothes after a long day but I guess that's only natural when you've played a game on and off for decades. 

 

I have yet to replay Deadfire (I was actually getting started when this thread made me go back to BG) so I don't know how it is going to hold up for me (the first run is always more memorable) but truth is I can't see myself replaying the first Pillars like I've been replaying the first BG in the last twenty years (but the only games I've played more than BG 1&2 are Fallout 1&2). 

 

Nostalgia is probably a factor and there is this element of comfort that makes playing it so effortless but there's also the fact that BG whether you're running the original with mods or the enhanced edition (with mods) still works in this day and age. 


Edited by gloomseeker, 04 January 2019 - 03:28 AM.


#55
Gorgon

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Resist the urge to get personal people, don't get sucked in. There is a lot of interesting discussion going on. Tripple, you are over the line. Someone always started it, pushed a button, whatever. 

 

Be the better man. The next step is pruning the thread. 


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#56
AFA

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Bringing up someone's dad when you know nothing about them is in the wrong...we've all gotten a little tiffed at some pt, don't make it worse, just apologize and move on.

On topic, I've been itching to get back into Dragonfall. It's right up my alley (Neuromancer is my fav book - read it 5 times and have a cool hardcover anniversary edition) but I'm nervous DF will feel very archaic at this pt. Have you played it recently?

 

Neuromancer is one of my favourite scifi books as well. I don't think that you should go in DF expecting Neuromancer the game (in which case you're going to be disappointed). It's still Shadowrun so it's all about the blending of fantasy and cyberpunk. 

 

Dragonfall does hold up as a game and it certainly does have a traditional structure with a hub and quests. I was worried after playing Shadowrun Hong Kong that I wouldn't be able to go back and play Dragonfall but frankly it does work. You may miss some of the addition but it's still the best Shadowrun game made by Harebrained Schemes. 

 

I've been replaying BG and there is no denying that it feels like putting on some comfortable clothes after a long day but I guess that's only natural when you've played a game on and off for decades. 

 

I have yet to replay Deadfire (I was actually getting started when this thread made me go back to BG) so I don't know how it is going to hold up for me (the first run is always more memorable) but truth is I can't see myself replaying the first Pillars like I've been replaying the first BG in the last twenty years (but the only games I've played more than BG 1&2 are Fallout 1&2). 

 

Nostalgia is probably a factor and there is this element of comfort that makes playing it so effortless but there's also the fact that BG whether you're running the original with mods or the enhanced edition (with mods) still works in this day and age. 

 

 

While Dragonfall is flat brilliant, I think Hong Kong is right there with it. HK's only downside is the walls of text. I love reading, info dumps, descriptive text, etc, but HK goes way overboard. You just drown in paragraph after paragraph.



#57
daven

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I really enjoyed Dragonfall, and played it again when the directors edition came out.

 

However Hong Kong never really gripped me as much, even though i did enjoy what i played I have never felt motivated to go back to it since. Maybe I should fire it up again soon...



#58
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The recent Shadowrun games are rather a part of the complement to the Pillars games in the set of rpgs in my opinion. They were actually carried by the story/setting/roleplaying  while the game mechanics are rather bland. I would not cite the Shadowrun games as examples for outstanding round based combat. And although i finished each of the recent Shadowrun games twice, i did so in spite of the combat mechanics and the decking/matrix mechanics. I really enjoyed the story and the setting which is a welcome alternative to all the sword and sorcery and fallout-like settings. 

I'd wish someone did a rpg with a similar strong focus on story telling, i.e. focused hubs with quality content, combined with good gameplay mechanics. Especially without any open-world time-sinks for which i couldn't care less. 


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#59
gloomseeker

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Bringing up someone's dad when you know nothing about them is in the wrong...we've all gotten a little tiffed at some pt, don't make it worse, just apologize and move on.

On topic, I've been itching to get back into Dragonfall. It's right up my alley (Neuromancer is my fav book - read it 5 times and have a cool hardcover anniversary edition) but I'm nervous DF will feel very archaic at this pt. Have you played it recently?

 

Neuromancer is one of my favourite scifi books as well. I don't think that you should go in DF expecting Neuromancer the game (in which case you're going to be disappointed). It's still Shadowrun so it's all about the blending of fantasy and cyberpunk. 

 

Dragonfall does hold up as a game and it certainly does have a traditional structure with a hub and quests. I was worried after playing Shadowrun Hong Kong that I wouldn't be able to go back and play Dragonfall but frankly it does work. You may miss some of the addition but it's still the best Shadowrun game made by Harebrained Schemes. 

 

I've been replaying BG and there is no denying that it feels like putting on some comfortable clothes after a long day but I guess that's only natural when you've played a game on and off for decades. 

 

I have yet to replay Deadfire (I was actually getting started when this thread made me go back to BG) so I don't know how it is going to hold up for me (the first run is always more memorable) but truth is I can't see myself replaying the first Pillars like I've been replaying the first BG in the last twenty years (but the only games I've played more than BG 1&2 are Fallout 1&2). 

 

Nostalgia is probably a factor and there is this element of comfort that makes playing it so effortless but there's also the fact that BG whether you're running the original with mods or the enhanced edition (with mods) still works in this day and age. 

 

 

While Dragonfall is flat brilliant, I think Hong Kong is right there with it. HK's only downside is the walls of text. I love reading, info dumps, descriptive text, etc, but HK goes way overboard. You just drown in paragraph after paragraph.

 

 

I do agree but that's not what bothers me the most about HK.

 

The economy is a bit messed up in comparison to DF. In DF you had to gather money (very much like in BG2 SOA) but you still had some margin to spend money on gear and upgrades. In HK if you decide to branch out and get into cybernetics, matrix/decking upgrades and spells you will be running a very tight budget which at the end of the day is not fun (it's ok to be short on cash early on but there is some satisfaction to be gained from knowing that you will have more than enough in the endgame to get what you need and HK never allows that to happen).  

 

Still, I think that the reason why I prefer DF has more to do with the nature of the story, i.e. the fact that the main character's background story (which we only piece together as we're going through the game) feels a lot more directive than in DF (technically you're not even a shadowrunner). 

 

There is also the character of Duncan. In DF Monica didn't overstay her welcome, she took a backseat and allowed the main character to shine. In HK for better or worse you're stuck with Duncan and if you happen not to be very fond of the character it can be a problem (in DF Dietrich was a real mate but in HK I never felt like Duncan was more than some muscle that needed to be cajoled or kept in line). 

 

This brings me back to BG because as far as siblings are concerned in CRPG it's hard not to bring up Imoen. I'm sure many people disliked her especially in BG1 and only kept her around because she was incredibly useful if you werent playing a thief. As annoying as she could be she was allowed some growth in BG2 and ironically became more important after being taken away from the party. She also became more likeable as a character as you played through the game. These days I couldn't imagine going through BG without having her in my party (she's a Jester in my current BG game and it does suit her). 

 

In Pillars I believe that the character that stands out and sticks with you is Edér. He is such a nice guy and probably the easiest character to get along with. Playing the game I never question having Edér tagging along because he is such a likeable character and that's an important trait for a follower. Sure, a character like Durance may look a lot more interesting but if I had to pick between the two there would be no contest. 

 

I believe we can't underestimate the importance of having memorable characters in the party. Even if these days I tend not to keep him around it's hard to imagine BG without Minsc. 

 

I wish some NPCs from the first Pillars would have made a come back in Deadfire. It's a bit sad Kana didn't make it but I miss Zahua and Maneha the most. 



#60
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God damn it guys, you made me check if Harebrainded Schemes released a new Shadowrun game :D

 

Alas, it did not :(


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