Theorycrafting Thoughts On New Classes (Patch 4.0 Beta)

[guildwriter]

Smoke Veil or Shadowing Beyond can work.  A good rule of thumb is be at least far away enough that you can't see anything.  There are some caveats, but that's the general principle.  

[Archaven]

 

 

So Debonaire is even worse than I thought.

• The Cowardice effect kicks in once you are about 2.5 meters away from anyone with a green circle. That's a pretty short range for such a hefty penalty of -10 Accuracy and -10 to all Defenses.
• Need to test this some more, but I think Rougish Charm does break stealth.
• Rougish Charm does break the moment you damage the charmed target.
• Here's the real kicker. As a "bonus" the Rougish Charm ability gives the charmed target a random inspiration. The higher the character level of the Debonaire, the higher the tier. Not great, but still could be useful to make your charmed guys strong right? Well here's the thing. The charm and the inspiration are separate rolls to hit. Meaning it's entirely possible to miss entirely with the charm effect but still land a positive inspiration on the enemy. I managed to superpower the bartender of the Wild Mare while never charming him once. So yes, you can screw yourself over inadvertently with this ability as it is done.

I think this is on track of being one of the worst subclasses if not the worst subclass in the game.

Lolzy. Good ol Obs.

That's their definition of difficultly

[brasilgringo]

FWIW I was testing Steel Garrote and it looks like the self-heal procs of attacks on any targets afflicted with an affliction like blindness, sickened, terrified, etc.   it seems that the self-heal from melee attacks only happens when you attack someone you've paralyzed with the 2-zeal Steel Garrote ability you get .   The good news is that heal will crit (I think) if you're weapon attack crits.  Actually it looks like the sellf-heal is a % of damage dealt, which explains the scaling with crits but also means you can use +dmg powers.

 

Running some tests with 18 might in Gorecci Street, I was getting normal heals of 7-8 on afflicted garroted enemies, but they went to 14-18 when I crit.  By comparison, the upgrated Sanguine Great Sword was healing me with three tics of 5-7 heal.  Exhalted Endurance was healing for 6 per tick, while Devil of Caroc BP was doing ticks of 1-3. 

 

I did some more testing further down this thread.  there may be something to an Arcane Knight SG using Spirit Lance to proc the heal off all AOE-hit afflicted enemies (using AOE afflictions like noxious burst, to which Pally can be immune, or AOE blinds including Cinder Bomb - not to mention that if you use Draconic Fury spell your own weapon will proc terrfiied on mobs in aoe, also giving you the SG self heal).

 

It seems like a bit of a drag to have to hit the target first with the SG.  If you're doing you're job, they'll be dead in 1-2 hits anyway, which won't provide a lot of healing back.  Maybe a fast, low-damage (speed dagger with Pukestabber?) approach if you're trying to max heal?

 

Not sure how it scales with might or deep faith or anything.  But it doesn't look particularly interesting.

Edited December 3, 2018 by brasilgringo

[Boeroer]

Arcane Archer's imbue abilities will still trigger multiple times with jumps - like Driving Flight (and I guess weapons with inherent jumps WS's Focus or Fury's natural weapons). Said Nick Carver.

 

So you can still trigger multiple spells with one use of an imbue that way.

 

Also Essence Interruptor, Blights etc. work exactly as intended: they don't get an ACC penalty because they do elemental damage. But only the imbues get an ACC bonus. Like Kaylon said.

 

And how is the Arcane Archer weaker than Stalker, Ghost Heart and Sharpshooter?

 

People discuss it as if it's a Prestige class that somehow has to be better than the vanilla ranger. But it's a subclass.

 

The imbues open up some AoE and CC options for a ranger who usually is limited to single targets (except with AoE weapons) - and with the right weapon he has no disadvantage over a vanilla ranger. How is that bad or weak?

 

Did anyone check if the Debonaire's 100% hit to crit conversion on charmed enemies also works

 

a) on enemies who were charmed with other abilities?

b) with spells?

 

Because guaranteed spell crits can be good. Also increased crit damage from other classes (Barbaric Blow or so) and items could be a good way to exploit an attack or even a Backstab on a charmed enemy from stealth/invisibility further.

 

Does Covardice get removed by a pet, an animal companion, a summon or a familiar?

[Gregorovich]

Some subclasses seem to be so disappointing for me, unfortunately

 

Not sure, but there might be some synergy between any Paladin (Steel Garrote fo fun) and the Blood Mage.

With Deep faith, Llengratha's Safeguard (LS) will give about 35 bonus to all the defenses, which is enough to fight in melee or compensate the defence decrease of the blood mage. Equip some shield plus flail. Blood sacrifice (BS) is random, but as it restores the lacking spells only, It is possible to abuse some powerful spells doing the scheme: Torrenet of Flame (ToF) - BS - ToF - BS until you're alive.

What if try Arcane knight like LS - BS - run into pack of mobs - ToF/piercing burst - BS - autoheal with Lay on Hands if needed - Tof/piercing burst. It's possible to abuse any spell, the main con is that you won't be able to use a lot of protection and buff spells until you have a high-level cipher in your party, because it will take too much time to "reblood" your spell pool.

I don't know if the thing is viable, but it sounds like an Arcane Knight of Steel Garrote devastating and punishing anything nearby

[Boeroer]

Blood Mage is the perfect Wizard subclass for all the folks who despise Empower.

 

You turn per-rest Empower into per-encounter spell regain.

 

On top you get a passive self heal.

 

Do a Blood Mage Sage and you will be happy. Do a Blood Mage Warlock: same. Do a Blood Mage Battlemage: oh, also good.

 

Very nice subclass concept. I agree that the randomness is a bit wonky. I also would be happier if you would get a Blood Sacrifice "Spell" in each spell tier that costs 0 uses and that reduces health by an increasing amount (based on tier) and gives you back a spell use of that tier. On the other hand - since this would be more powerful than the current random mechanic - I think it would be very cool if not only actual health got removed but maxhealth as well (lesser amount, but until combat ends). So healing can't be abused that much.  

[Andvare]

Worth noting is that the Power Level persist for some time. So it can be used for multiple attack abilities which scale of power level (although only at +1) in every fight, e.g. FoD (arcane knight). Empower is not available for such cases (not available via multiclassing) I guess monk would be the better choice though. Too bad FoD is not restored by Blood Sacrifice

 

Edit: Blood Sacrifice does state, "+1 Wizard Power Level". Perhaps I was wrong to assume that it would apply to abilities (FoD etc) and lashes?

 

A very nice and fun addition overall!

Edited December 2, 2018 by Andvare

[Boeroer]

Is is just me or is a Tactician very... exploitable?

 

Tactician/Beckoner with Grave Calling (foe-only Chillfog on vessel kill)?

 

Tactician/Cipher with Phantom Foes

 

Tactician/Wizard with Slicken.

 

And so on...

Edited December 2, 2018 by Boeroer

[Saito Hikari]

Arcane Archer's imbue abilities will still trigger multiple times with jumps - like Driving Flight (and I guess weapons with inherent jumps WS's Focus or Fury's natural weapons). Said Nick Carver.

 

So you can still trigger multiple spells with one use of an imbue that way.

 

Also Essence Interruptor, Blights etc. work exactly as intended: they don't get an ACC penalty because they do elemental damage. But only the imbues get an ACC bonus. Like Kaylon said.

 

And how is the Arcane Archer weaker than Stalker, Ghost Heart and Sharpshooter?

 

People discuss it as if it's a Prestige class that somehow has to be better than the vanilla ranger. But it's a subclass.

 

The imbues open up some AoE and CC options for a ranger who usually is limited to single targets (except with AoE weapons) - and with the right weapon he has no disadvantage over a vanilla ranger. How is that bad or weak?

 

Admittedly, it's my expectations not living up to reality. Virtually everything I tested didn't work out the way I thought it would. I should have read everything far more carefully and realized that the whole 'Imbue/Frost/Fire/Electricity' part was in the 'Cons' section instead of the 'Pros' for a reason.

 

Still, I know I'm not the only one who jumped the gun on this considering the amount of 'test with Essence Interrupter/Frostseeker!' posts there were, but even analyzing the subclass from a pure design standpoint...

 

Pros:

- You gain AoE options on a class that doesn't normally have them outside of using specific weapons, and compared to Wizard spells, they're instant cast.

- The Imbue abilities have absurd accuracy when built correctly (anywhere from 5-20 bonus accuracy depending on Arcana level)

 

Cons:

- Maximum Health -15%

- Imbue abilities only work with ranged weapons

- Multi-hit weapons do not synergize well with Imbue abilities (fires one projectile instead of however much they normally do, which may result in a net loss of damage)

- All non-elemental weapons and abilities have a constant -5 accuracy penalty

 

That is a lot of cons and restrictions for something that basically just gives the Ranger the ability to instant cast a handful of Wizard spells. It doesn't even create any new interesting (intended) interactions with multiclasses outside of finding ways to avoid the penalty, as far as anyone has cared enough to theorycraft thus far (and on the other hand, you have the absolutely busted Tactician, which to be fair is very likely to get hit with the nerf bat).

 

I mean, I guess I would understand the restrictions being like this if it turns out that the new DLC is actually going to introduce something that synergizes very well with Arcane Archer, but base game... Not so much. At the same time, I'm willing to accept Arcane Archer as it currently is, because I know there are far worse subclasses out there.

 

I know the way I strongly worded my observations probably caused a lot of damage to everyone's perception of Arcane Archer. I should probably just shut up, sit out the rest of the testing cycle since I'm still largely a newbie to cRPGs while the actual veterans make more careful observations, and wait for the DLC and the next game, if there is one.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Saito Hikari

[guildwriter]

Is is just me or is a Tactician very... exploitable?

 

Tactician/Beckoner with Grave Calling (foe-only Chillfog on vessel kill)?

 

Tactician/Cipher with Phantom Foes

 

Tactician/Wizard with Slicken.

 

And so on...

 

Tactician seems extremely exploitable.  Even rogue can easily trigger brilliant tactician by using pernicious cloud or smoke grenade.

 

One of the strongest of the new subclasses imo.  Even the penalty when you aren't assist attacking (-1 Pen, -5 Acc) isn't so bad that it can't be overcome.  Lot of ways to deal with flanked or the penalties associated with flanked as well..

 

I don't mind this as much though as preventing everyone from being flanked in a team setting is a bit harder to execute than with a solo character.  I think it's good that there's an option for other classes to have situational access to unlimited abilities seeing how Obsidian seems to favor endurance fights for this game.

Edited December 2, 2018 by guildwriter

[AndreaColombo]

Agree with Saito.

 

Arcane Archer is a cool concept but currently it isn’t very enticing from a mechanical perspective. Lower health may not be that big of a problem on a ranged character, but the penalty on non-elemental damage weapons is too restrictive. It’s a class that relies on hitting or critting, so you want to avoid the Accuracy penalty at all times—which leaves you with very few options:

 

- Frostseeker: suboptimal because imbue makes it fire only one projectile

- Essence Interrupter: not everybody’s cup of tea owing to the quirky summon perk

- Minor Blights: must multi with a Wizard

- Rot Skulls: must multi with a Druid

- Fury’s Spiritshift: must multi with a Fury Druid

 

So you must go out of your way to avoid a very restrictive penalty (and fall way behind a Sharpshooter in terms of single-target DPS) in exchange for the ability to add a spell to a single attack for a non-trivial Bond cost, which won’t even generate focus with the extra damage if you multi with Cipher.

 

The extra Accuracy is 0.5 per Arcana, so you need 20 Arcana for a non-game-changing bonus of +5 that only applies to the imbued spell. Pretty hefty opportunity cost there. You’re not good at single-target DPS but hey, now you can also trail behind Wizard at AoE. Or, you know, you could play a Sharpshooter/Wizard and be better at both

 

 

The separate attack roll on Charme/Inspiration on the Debonaire is just /facepalm. How was it possibly unobvious that is was a bad idea?

 

 

Does the Steel Garrote’s self heal work with other afflictions than that caused by the Garrote ability? If not, it’s a tad underwhelming (though the class still has style in spades.)

 

Priest of Woedica IMHO is great even if the summoned weapon’s cheese with Monks is nerfed. The Writs are pretty good.

Edited December 2, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[Kaylon]

Is is just me or is a Tactician very... exploitable?

 

Tactician/Beckoner with Grave Calling (foe-only Chillfog on vessel kill)?

 

Tactician/Cipher with Phantom Foes

 

Tactician/Wizard with Slicken.

 

And so on...

Only on paper... These spells aren't guaranteed hits, don't affect all enemies on the screen and the length of the buff is given by the shortest duration of the flanked affliction (high defenses or resolve will easily screw this). It might give more reliable results on a rogue/tactician who can engage/distract all enemies left. And the cipher/tactician doesn't need brilliant - you can just use mind lance to restore discipline. 

[Saito Hikari]

- Frostseeker: suboptimal because imbue makes it fire only one projectile

- Essence Interrupter: not everybody’s cup of tea owing to the quirky summon perk

- Minor Blights: must multi with a Wizard

- Rot Skulls: must multi with a Druid

- Fury’s Spiritshift: must multi with a Fury Druid

 

I will add that Dragon's Dowry is exempt as well. I'm fairly sure every ranged weapon that has an elemental damage component is exempt, even if it doesn't do elemental damage 100% of the time due to using 'best of damage type' calculation (like Essence Interrupter).

 

Although I think Frostseeker, Essence Interrupter, and Dragon's Dowry already cover most of those weapons. They're at least the most commonly used ones. Other ones I can think of...

 

- Maybe Blightheart once you upgrade it to inflict Corrode damage (and it does soulbind with Rangers), but the subclass description specifies Acid, not Corrode.

- Eccea's Arcane Blaster can be upgraded to have a RNG chance to inflict fire damage, and that might cause it to avoid the penalty as well (at the cost of other upgrades for the weapon).

- Thundercrack Pistol

 

I've looked through all the other ranged weapons and I don't see anything else that would qualify, unless the 'Spell' part of the subclass description results in any ranged weapon having a RNG chance to do something extra results in said weapons avoiding the penalty as well.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Saito Hikari

[Boeroer]

 

Is is just me or is a Tactician very... exploitable?

 

Tactician/Beckoner with Grave Calling (foe-only Chillfog on vessel kill)?

 

Tactician/Cipher with Phantom Foes

 

Tactician/Wizard with Slicken.

 

And so on...

Only on paper... These spells aren't guaranteed hits, don't affect all enemies on the screen and the length of the buff is given by the shortest duration of the flanked affliction (high defenses or resolve will easily screw this). It might give more reliable results on a rogue/tactician who can engage/distract all enemies left. And the cipher/tactician doesn't need brilliant - you can just use mind lance to restore discipline. 

 

I don't know. 

 

With tricks like Grave Calling (and a Beckoner) you can produce a lot of overlaying foe-only  Chillfogs that blind (and flank) all enemies rel. reliably.

 

And that's only in addition to the Discipline regain through interrupts. Use a Battlemage-Tactician for Slicken and you will have Disciline overflow - or not? Or even a Bloodmage/Tactician who has strong self healing but can always dish out a Slicken or Trhust of Tattered Veils plus Mule Kick here and there.

 

I didn't try yet, but it all sounds rather powerful.

 

I already find Knockdown/Mule Kick with Body Blows pretty good without any additional discipline coming from it.

[Kaylon]

Does the Steel Garrote’s self heal work with other afflictions than that caused by the Garrote ability? If not, it’s a tad underwhelming (though the class still has style in spades.)

Yes, the health drain has the same requirements as sneak attack so a steel garrote/rogue with persistent distraction is a very good combo.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Kaylon

[Takkik]

Is is just me or is a Tactician very... exploitable?

 

Tactician/Beckoner with Grave Calling (foe-only Chillfog on vessel kill)?

 

Tactician/Cipher with Phantom Foes

 

Tactician/Wizard with Slicken.

 

And so on...

 

Getting discipline back is easy with multiclassing. At same time, I don't find the fighter the most resource hungry class since lot of ability cost 2 and are duration based. The brilliant inspiration is 'useless' for the tactician and is here more to get back other class resource but you need to keep it on a long time.

 

If you combine with a second class with unlimited resource like chanter, cipher or blood mage, yeah you have unlimited resources, but you will use a lot of your action economy to CC the enemies.

 

The good point of this subslass, is that it combo with prety much all other classes.

[Takkik]

I'm a little disapointed by the lack of synergy of the tactician war caller. It's more a chanter problem. You need to wait PL 6 to get an interrupting spell (the tornado) when a MC wizard or cipher can interrupt at lvl 1. I though the push spell and the paralyse one would count as interrupting but not. The summons are nice, but if you play with a party a chanter companion give you the same benefit.

[Verde]

 

 

 

So Debonaire is even worse than I thought.

• The Cowardice effect kicks in once you are about 2.5 meters away from anyone with a green circle. That's a pretty short range for such a hefty penalty of -10 Accuracy and -10 to all Defenses.
• Need to test this some more, but I think Rougish Charm does break stealth.
• Rougish Charm does break the moment you damage the charmed target.
• Here's the real kicker. As a "bonus" the Rougish Charm ability gives the charmed target a random inspiration. The higher the character level of the Debonaire, the higher the tier. Not great, but still could be useful to make your charmed guys strong right? Well here's the thing. The charm and the inspiration are separate rolls to hit. Meaning it's entirely possible to miss entirely with the charm effect but still land a positive inspiration on the enemy. I managed to superpower the bartender of the Wild Mare while never charming him once. So yes, you can screw yourself over inadvertently with this ability as it is done.

I think this is on track of being one of the worst subclasses if not the worst subclass in the game.

Lolzy. Good ol Obs.

That's their definition of difficultly

They try, they try.

[InsaneCommander]

Did anyone post more pictures of the new classes? I finally got some free time this weekend and I could post more if anyone is interested.

 

Edit: here.

Edited December 2, 2018 by InsaneCommander

[guildwriter]

Did anyone check if the Debonaire's 100% hit to crit conversion on charmed enemies also works

 

a) on enemies who were charmed with other abilities?

b) with spells?

 

Because guaranteed spell crits can be good. Also increased crit damage from other classes (Barbaric Blow or so) and items could be a good way to exploit an attack or even a Backstab on a charmed enemy from stealth/invisibility further.

 

Does Covardice get removed by a pet, an animal companion, a summon or a familiar?

 

Cowardice seems to get removed by anything with a green circle whether that's an animal companion or a summon.  As far as I can tell pets do nothing.  

 

Tested the Hit to Crit bonus and here is what I found.

• Tested spell crits using Necrotic Lance and Fireball using a Debonair/Wizard and a Arcane Archer/Cipher
• As far as I can tell it only works on targets affected by Rougish Charm.  Doesn't trigger off of targets affected by Ringleader.
• The Hit to Crit bonus doesn't work on spells that are targeted or AoE.  Doesn't work on charmed or dominated targets either.  Just doesn't apply period.

Really going to have to disagree that the Hit to Crit (at least in this form) has any real merit.  While it may be guaranteed, it requires a lot of setup and frankly most abilities it's not worth going through this much trouble to guarantee a crit.  Especially when the ability in question can backfire.  And it's Kith only remember.

 

I feel more confident in saying this subclass needs some tuning.  I think it has great flavor and fits the setting well.  The mechanics are sub par though and I think it needs a second look.  As it is right now the class is effectively a trap choice.

Edited December 2, 2018 by guildwriter

[Boeroer]

Yeah. With all those drawbacks it's meh. If spells would have profited from the crit conversion and also other sources of charm would have worked it would have been decent though.

[Frak]

Like they're a slow, methodical fighter who also panics and lashes out when they're under pressure.

 

 

Sounds like a fighter on LSD.

 

"Woooh. Everything is moving in slow-motion. I can see the threads of the universe and every living being is connected. I parry your blade with ease as it moves like a sloth through grass.

.....

 

THE SPIDERS! THE PURPLE RATSPIDERS ARE CRAWLING UP MY LEGS! ARGHHHH!"

[DozingDragon]

 

Like they're a slow, methodical fighter who also panics and lashes out when they're under pressure.

 

 

Sounds like a fighter on LSD.

 

"Woooh. Everything is moving in slow-motion. I can see the threads of the universe and every living being is connected. I parry your blade with ease as it moves like a sloth through grass.

.....

 

THE SPIDERS! THE PURPLE RATSPIDERS ARE CRAWLING UP MY LEGS! ARGHHHH!"

 

"We can't stop here, this is skuldrak country!" - The Tactician 

[brasilgringo]

Some subclasses seem to be so disappointing for me, unfortunately

 

Not sure, but there might be some synergy between any Paladin (Steel Garrote fo fun) and the Blood Mage.

I don't know if the thing is viable, but it sounds like an Arcane Knight of Steel Garrote devastating and punishing anything nearby

 

To get the heal from Steel Garrote you have to have used the ability on the mob you are attacking (maybe in Melee only) ... so at a minimum, you have to spend time/zeal tagging mobs with the ability first ... frankly an arcane knight of a different subclass may give you more mileage, including the one (St. Elga) where the lay on hands prevents you from being killed for (x) seconds?

[brasilgringo]

Agree with Saito.

- Rot Skulls: must multi with a Druid

-

Does the Steel Garrote’s self heal work with other afflictions than that caused by the Garrote ability? If not, it’s a tad underwhelming (though the class still has style in spades.)

 

 

 

I think you can multi with Priest of Berath and pick up Rot Skulls too, that way?

 

Ref SG self-heal:  The self-heal seems very weak.  On Reddit someone is saying that the heal procs off any hostile effect, including things like Persistent Distraction from rogues ... I didn't test this. https://www.reddit.com/r/projecteternity/comments/a27c7f/what_do_you_think_of_the_new_subclasses/

 

Your wizard/sharpshooter comment got me thinking about some builds.  I guess the question is do you gain enough from going Sharpshooter to make up for what you lose from Wizard (higher level spells) ... maybe a self-buffing wiz focused on something like Red Hand using -reload time items?  With one or two strong AOEs.  Could go Blood Mage I guess.

Edited December 2, 2018 by brasilgringo