Theorycrafting Thoughts On New Classes (Patch 4.0 Beta)

[Saito Hikari]

Does anybody know if Devoted's PEN bonus would also apply to the imbue-spells of an Arcane Archer? Not at home atm...

Just tested this. It does not (well, it affects the initial hit, but not the spell rolls). My guess is that it considers Imbue spells to be, well, spells, and thus not subject to any weapon proficency bonuses. Same reason why Cipher multiclass Soul Whip doesn't affect Imbue spell rolls/spell rolls don't generate Focus.

 

I've also noted something else: The Ranger Marksman passive (+5 accuracy to attacks against enemies that are >4m) also doesn't apply to Imbue spell rolls.

 

So, the only interesting new multiclass interaction I've found is that Citzal's Martial Power doesn't disable Imbue spells. At this point, we can pretty much safely rule out any interactions with the Imbue abilities that are dependent on weapon proficiency. I'd say a lot of potentially interesting multiclass combinations with Arcane Archer just straight up don't work in actual practice, because the Imbue concept is being held back due to running off of spell mechanics instead of weapon mechanics. Although I get why this wouldn't work in the first place, trying to combine weapon and spell mechanics at once hasn't really been done within the programming of this game before, outside of summoned weapons.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Saito Hikari

[Boeroer]

Thaks for testing.

 

I tried a Monk/Arcane Archer and Enduring Dance works just fine for the imbue spells. But that was to be expected since it's an universal ACC buff. Same with Thunderous Blows: gives your spells +2 PEN which is nice. 

[brasilgringo]

 

Has anyone checked to see if Eccea's arcane blaster is exempt from the Arcane Archer penalty (either before or after enchanting with one of the elemental options)?  So far I think we have: Frostseeker and Essence Interrupter as the exempt weapons -- any others that folks have found?

 

Essence Interrupter, Frostseeker, and Dragon's Dowry are the only ones I've tested (for actual weapons). Theoretically, Thundercrack Pistol should also be exempt, and it's possible that a select few other ranged weapons may be as well after they take upgrades that grant the ability to inflict elemental damage. Caedebald's Blackbow should also be exempt, in the off-chance that the new DLC introduces a way to use it as an Arcane Archer (currently available to PL9 single-class Wizards).

 

Spearcaster (whose accuracy scales with Arcana) gets the -5 Acc penalty even if you upgrade it to Elemental Bolts (+3% lash of burn/corrode/freeze/shock).

[Archaven]

Thaks for testing.

 

I tried a Monk/Arcane Archer and Enduring Dance works just fine for the imbue spells. But that was to be expected since it's an universal ACC buff. Same with Thunderous Blows: gives your spells +2 PEN which is nice.

MIG helps the imbue spells? May go with a helwalker/arcane archer.

 

Also is there an ETA on 4.0?

Edited December 9, 2018 by Archaven

[Boeroer]

I think when Forgotten Sanctum comes out (13th)...?

 

Yes, MIG and INT influence the imbue-spells.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Boeroer

[Archaven]

I think when Forgotten Sanctum comes out (13th)...?

 

Yes, MIG and INT influence the imbue-spells.

Thanks! Another build i wanted probably last build? Something to do with melee barbarian and wizard. I wanted a melee DPS barbarian nuker. Is it a viable?

[Gregorovich]

 

I think when Forgotten Sanctum comes out (13th)...?

 

Yes, MIG and INT influence the imbue-spells.

Thanks! Another build i wanted probably last build? Something to do with melee barbarian and wizard. I wanted a melee DPS barbarian nuker. Is it a viable?

 

That's not actually what you want, but I'm trying ranged Furyshaper/Blood Mage. I use Red Hand: 16 Dex + Deleterious Alcracity + Frenzy + Ward Frenzy + Ila chant = 3.7 seconds reload, when the Arqeubus passive is on, so I have + 20 ACC and deal 60-80 dmg per reload at the moment. Also you're able to spam spells like rocket launcher to devastate small groups of enemies. 

 

Edit: all of mentioned above plus Devil's Breastplate + Acina's Tricorn + Pet for armor penalty reduction = 3.1 seconds reload of the Red Hand with weapon proficcience talent on.

 

Fury ward works just like Ryngrim's visage 3s pulse with ACC (30+Your level bonus) When put it disables almost all the melee weapons, good against enemy rogues. It targets will instead of Fortitude, and has no weaken effect. Lasts for 45 seconds with my 20 Int. Very, very good. When the enemies are immune or only ranged enemies I use Frenzy Ward

 

But that is good only for the ranged. Furyshaper looks better as ranged character, as the  wards are too squishy to use them right near enemies, and how to say it (?) too fixed and can't follow your barb if he's melee.

 

The best barb subclass for melee is Berseker. Multiclass with wizard is good, but not the Blood Mage, as Blood Sacrifice (which is random)+ Raw Damage from Frenzy means that every death is a ... surprise! Also Blood Mage has a defense penalty against blooded enemies (-15, i think), so the harder you hit - the more you get. It would be too squishy and difficult for me.

 

And if you use Berserker/non-Blood Mage... Well there's nothing new in the build, as you could use it before

Edited December 9, 2018 by Gregorovich

[grasida]

I’d much rather arcane archer just not get the accuracy boost from arcana to imbue and also not get the accuracy penalty to most weapons.

 

First, the current system arbitrarily pushes them into putting all points into one skill, which is not great design at the class level. Nalpazca has a somewhat similar issue, but nalpazca is also pretty messed up, balance-wise, and alchemy investment has a much softer incentive. Second, the weapon restrictions don’t serve as an effective power-check on the character, and only are a somewhat flavorful limitation on what weapons it can use. As Boeroer mentioned, an elemental ranged weapon is available very early, meaning as soon as you get the essence interruptor, you face effectively no downside except that you’re restricted to only use a random range of weapons that are all really good anyway. It might be fun to make a melee/ranged wanderer, for example, using arcane archer imbues for utility and melee for damage, but you’re dissuaded from this for no good reason by the accuracy penalty.

 

The accuracy bonus and penalty have flavor, but they’re also confusing. I don’t think the extra complication added by these properties makes the class any more interesting or that the flavor is worth the confusion and unnecessary restrictions it causes. It’s just a design that’s complicated for complexity’s sake.

[Verde]

It is a subclass.

 

Thus it's not supposed to be better or worse than a vanilla ranger.

 

Once you get a weapon with elemental dmg the Arcane Archer will have no ACC penalty. So you can completely circumvent the first penalty if you wish (Essence Interruptor comes very early).

 

The Arcane Archer will get some abilites that will trigger an (AoE) spell with every jump he can generate (Driving Flight + jumps from item enchantments). PLUS he gets a huge stackable ACC bonus when maxing Arcana (besides being able to use scrolls). THat bonus also apploies to the imbue spells. That is already very strong. Imbue: Minor Missiles will be altered in a way that it scales with PL as normal Missiles do: more PL = more projectiles.

 

Because of that, Arcane Archer is one of the few classes atm with whitch I can clear a whole pack of dummies with one, maybe two shots (Imbue: Death has a huge AoE and if you manage to trigger it thrice with Driving Flight + Watershaper's Focus most groups are done for).

 

Giving him bonus ACC from Arcana for all his attacks with an elemental weapon would just be OP. Ranger already can stack a ton of ACC bonuses.

Giving him a penatly for normal weapons and no penalty for some others and a big ACC bonus for his imbue ability is totally balanced in my opinion.

 

Compared to all that his remaining penalty (-15% health) is neglectable - as a ranged character his health pool isn't his most important feat anyway.

 

So all in all - why are you guys complaining? As I already said: those are not prestige classes that are supposed to give you more power. But Arcane Archer already does this.

But why do you say that Boeroer? All the Rogue subclasses as they stand are better than the vanilla Rogue. Same with Fighters. On the other hand, there are subclasses worse than vanilla like Barbs (except Beserker) and Wizards. So with what you said the opposite is actually true in most regards - either a sub class is worse or better than it's vanilla counterpart, not equal. Edited December 9, 2018 by Verde

[Takkik]

Because on paper a subclass should not be better or worse. The bonus & malus should balance each other. In practice, nothing is perfectly balanced and subclasses can be very situationnal/specific.

 

I prefere d&d 5 subclasses : you must pick one, they only give you bonus. But even in D&d5 some subclasses are more suitable to combat oriented compaign and others not.

[AndreaColombo]

I believe he's speaking more in terms of general design goal than actual implementation. A subclass is supposed to be a different flavor of the main class, not a straight-up better choice that makes the main class obsolete (neither a worse choice that nobody would ever dream of picking, for that matter.) Whether or not this true depends on how well subclasses are designed and implemented.

 

With that said, Arcane Archer is weaker than standard Ranger at ranged DPS, and weaker than standard Wizard at nuking. Add in the Sharpshooter and Evoker subclasses, and Arcane Archer is shred to pieces, especially by a multiclass that combines the two (but even if you kept a single-class Sharpshooter you could invest in Arcana and nuke like an Arcane Archer; imbue are nice but hardly a game changer.)

[Verde]

Because on paper a subclass should not be better or worse. The bonus & malus should balance each other. In practice, nothing is perfectly balanced and subclasses can be very situationnal/specific.

 

I prefere d&d 5 subclasses : you must pick one, they only give you bonus. But even in D&d5 some subclasses are more suitable to combat oriented compaign and others not.

But in execution there are (better or worse). Edited December 9, 2018 by Verde

[grasida]

Because on paper a subclass should not be better or worse. The bonus & malus should balance each other. In practice, nothing is perfectly balanced and subclasses can be very situationnal/specific.

 

I prefere d&d 5 subclasses : you must pick one, they only give you bonus. But even in D&d5 some subclasses are more suitable to combat oriented compaign and others not.

I’ve never played any tabletop D&D, but what you say about 5 really seems like a better way of doing it. The balance of subclass to main class rarely works out in Deadfire. It seems too difficult to design substantial situational advantages and disadvantages that can’t be manipulated by the player to always work out as an advantage. And that’s basically what the player is looking for from a subclass, too. People generally seem pretty happy with subclasses that are stronger than base classes, but complain a lot when a subclass is weaker.

 

Of course, I also think a straight up classless system would be better still, but that’s too much to hope for.

 

But in execution there are (better or worse).

But that hardly means that the developers should design subclasses to straight up be better while still giving you the choice of the base class. Perfect balance is unattainable, and Obsidian seems less concerned with it overall in Deadfire than PoE 1, but that doesn’t mean that trap options should be an explicit design goal. Edited December 9, 2018 by grasida

[Boeroer]

With that said, Arcane Archer is weaker than standard Ranger at ranged DPS, and weaker than standard Wizard at nuking. Add in the Sharpshooter and Evoker subclasses, and Arcane Archer is shred to pieces, especially by a multiclass that combines the two (but even if you kept a single-class Sharpshooter you could invest in Arcana and nuke like an Arcane Archer; imbue are nice but hardly a game changer.)

I have a different opinion.

 

First of all I don't think that Assassin, Trickster or Streetfighter are straight out better than a vanilla Rogue. Their advantages and disadvantages balance each other out - sort of.

 

But there are several ways to circumvent the disadvantages and there are builds where certain subclasses are better than others - for example a Trickster is better for a tanky build than an Assassin.

 

I also don't think that the Barb subclasses are worse than the vanilla class. More niche maybe, but there are niches where they are def. better. Berserker is praised - but only because people think the crit conversion and the better inspirations outweigh the self damage - which they don't in my opinion. If you play a high level Berserker it's a big disadvantage actually. 

And the fact that you can circumvent confusion... well as I said: you can circumvent the disadvantages with most subclasses as you would try to do with any build: build out your strengths, circumvent the weaknesses. 

 

Same with the Arcane Archer.

 

I don't think he's worse than a Sharpshooter, Ghost Heart or a Stalker. Sharpshooters actually always suffer from a permanent speed malus that hampers their dps. Against enemies where AR is no problem they are straight out worse than other rangers. Stalkers are only good at melee range and require more micromanagement. With AI it's a pain to prevent Bonded Grief. Ghost Heart's animal companion can't do anything better than the normal AC but costs Bond AND counts towards the summoning limit. But you can find builds/cases where each of those makes sense and is a better pick than the others.

 

The Arcane Archer can hit several enemies with multiple spells using only one shot. As I already said: Imbue: Death at high levels is one of the things that can currently wipe a whole group of dummies with two shots if you build the Arcane Archer correctly. Because of the Arcana-ACC bonus you'll generate tons of crits with your imbue spell, the dmg number of Death Ring can be over 100 for each hit roll, you can at least trigger two ones with Driving Flight and three with an additional jump AND it has the chance to destroy targets that have low health. You can maybe see the synergy with the multi-triggering...

Three instances of Pull of Eora with one imbue shot with such high ACC will guarantee nothing leaves that area - especially when you combine it with Binding Roots(!). A very potent CC option - and you need no caster for that and not even a "dedicated" CC guy.

 

The disadvantages can be circumvented easily as with other subclasses: low health isn't a big deal because you will be ranged and thus will plan to play with lowish health and defenses anyway. The ACC pen is non-existent with the right weapons (which are not hard to come by).

 

I tested that class a lot now and I have not the impression that it's worse than the other subclasses. Same with the Furyshaper by the way. The others I have not really tried so I can't say.

 

That there are subclasses that are indeed better than the vanilla class (see Troubadour) doesn't mean that this should be done with every new subclass. Because it's boring if you are forced to pick the same subclass over and over again when you're somebody who cares for power.

 

At the moment I think it's just an assumed weakness than an actual one - like it was at the release of PoE where lots of people seriously found that Wizards are useless.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Boeroer

[Gregorovich]

Well, one of my strange and crazy ideas about Arcane Archer (AA). Again

 

To balance the subclass: change nothing of present, but add 2 imbue spells:

 

Imbue: Fog (Chill Fog)

Imbue: Light (Expose Vulnerabilities) (or other debuffs, but not illusions)

 

In such way AA is lower in DPS than other Rangers or Rogues and still unable to nuke spells as Wizard. But he is now a great debuffer!

 

You have Chill fog with 10-15 bonus ACC, and if you have the ice helmet from BoW it's 20-25! You could blind everything in the distance of your bow!

As well as put Expose Vulnerabilities on a boss

 

So we have rebalance, new purpose for the subclass and new opportunities for multiclass. Oh, where is the mod for this

[Takkik]

Subclasses, like prestige classes, add flavors in a classe system. And I think people love flavor, that why prestige classes are often popular. The problem is that in most game systems like Pathfinder/D&d3 and Deadfire, subclasses (and prestige classes in p&p) are balanced with tradeoffs. You get something unique but loose something else (sometimes some core classes features).

 

But like Josh stated in some GDC panel (or even Paradox stream about their games), people tend to dislike/avoid malus. Anything with a '-' or red tend to be negatives in player perception. And it tend to make gameplay more complicated, because now you have malus to take into account. Take blood mage, now you have to take into account bloodied enemies and remember they have advantage on you.

I think subclasses (&prestiges classes) as only positive advantage are more interesting. Easier to keep track, feel more positive/rewarding, and you loose nothing to add more flavor to your character.

 

D&d4 got a great concept for prestige classes, too bad they didn't kept it for 5e. Lvl 1-10 you progress you're base class, level 11-20 you pick a prestige class (or another base class for MC). The most interesting way to implement prestige classes & balance them. They feel like some career system and natural progression.

 

Always though they should have made multiclassing obligatory (no more balance problem between single/MC) or made multiclassing as Hybrid classes : same progression as single class & you can balance each abilities inside each class individualy (or made multiclassing as subclasses).

[Gregorovich]

And one word to support Boeroer: Furyshaper is a damn good subclass, absolutely enjoyable

[Boeroer]

Chillfog would be too powerful. You could trigger three instances of it with one shot.    I mean that spell is too powerful per se.

 

He already is an awesome Crowd Controller once you get Pull of Eora and combine it with Binding Roots.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Boeroer

[Gregorovich]

Gamebreaking, yes, but so much fun!

[Boeroer]

It was also fun to trigger 15 Fireballs on 5 enemies with Watershaper's Focus + Blast - when that still triggered a spell on every hit roll - but I fear that such fun is only short-lived.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Boeroer

[Takkik]

I'm curious why arcane archer isn't a wizard subclass. Imbue spells could have been added as new spells. Give an accuracy malus to spells not used with imbue. Often arcane archer is a wizard archetype.

 

I would have prefered a ranger/druid that work like the trickster with beast spells at each level, or a storm ranger (lightning/storm spell for a more melee build).

[Boeroer]

I wondered why Paladin/Wizard is an Arcane Knight but a Ranger/Wizard isn't an Arcane Archer.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Boeroer

[Takkik]

so much existancial questions!

 

Anyone have tested if summons count to avoid tactician acc malus?

[TheWeaver]

Another, different summons question (and apologies if this has been answered in the thread already).  Do the Furyshaper wards count as a summons?  I assume yes, but wanted to be sure before I started getting excited by a Troub/Furyshaper.

[Gregorovich]

Yes, if you look at the description of the Ward you will see keywords: Summoned Creatures