Neat Party Trick: Eternal Ascension mode

[thelee]

My point is, being able to execute a combo with which your buffs can be extended indefinitely is fun. Remove Brilliant, and the fun is gone. All this to balance an ability that prevents you from dying.

 

Let's agree to disagree on BDD. Preventing me from being dead regardless of how much damage I'm taking when I only have 1 HP left doesn't count as healing for me.

 

We can agree to disagree on BDD (but mathematically I'm right ), but my point is that BDD isn't even the only issue. Brilliant breaks anything, because getting back a class resource every tick in a way that you can perfectly metagame is basically a combo winter (like a nuclear winter, except with combos).

 

If one cares about balance, Brilliant needs to be hit, not BDD. If you want to be able to have "fun" by keeping Brilliant as-is, then you have to accept degenerate combos existing.

Edited September 17, 2018 by thelee

[AndreaColombo]

If you want to be able to have "fun" by keeping Brilliant as-is, then you have to accept degenerate combos existing.

 

I personally wouldn't mind. I never even pick BDD because the B stands for Boring.

 

None of this matters anyway; in a patch or two, all of this will be nerfed so far into the ground it will come back up from the sky.

Edited September 17, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[Haplok]

I don't think Brilliant is the issue. IMO it's linear Salvation of Time. It leads to other broken combos, like 30 second Blade Turning.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Haplok

[1TTFFSSE]

Probably only thing that would be worth considering is making brilliant inspiration work on an adjusted timescale ie higher level resources like spells beyond level 4 regenerate increasingly slower otherwise as we know previously it was very easy to abuse powerful spells at high levels by getting them back beyond using an empower point. 

 

I would hate to see it penalize martial classes who get brilliant and don't regen for example rogue resources even more. 

 

As for this particular combo I agree with AndreaColombo that this is too niche of a use of those three abilities in synergy. Yes you can "duo" any encounter with this setup once you have it but who cares, it is not even a solo run.

 

As for a full party run, it is not really needed even in the most challenging encounters as things generally die faster than the need to use such tactics really.

 

As for ciphers, I do think time parasite needs a slight duration buff now as it was over-nerfed a few patches ago. 

[AndreaColombo]

I don't think Brilliant is the issue. IMO it's linear Salvation of Time. It leads to other broken combos, like 30 second Blade Turning.

 

In my book, 30s Blade Turning is filed under "Fun."

 

Appreciate that YMMV.

 

(For record, Blade Turning is another ability I never take. I just like the idea of being able to extend my buffs indefinitely.)

[thelee]

I don't think Brilliant is the issue. IMO it's linear Salvation of Time. It leads to other broken combos, like 30 second Blade Turning.

 

To me, using up two abilities, one of them a PL6 spell (which arrives at level 15 for multi-class characters, which is basically end-game), should be powerful. It's close to the main reason why Salvation of Time has any worth as it is.

 

Brilliant is what lets you take a powerful effect (BDD or Ascension + Salvation of Time) and turn it into a degenerate combo (perma-immortality+ascension).

 

Having Brilliant scale with the PL of the spell being added is a decent idea, but I suspect it's just fundamentally broken as it is (i'd be perfectly happy with getting PL1 spells back every 3 seconds in certain situations; not to mention I can get a lot of mileage out of the 1 point every 3 seconds you get currently for martial classes). I've followed Magic: The Gathering enough to know that free resources are just incredibly hard to balance meaningfully, to the point that at least in an M:TG setting they basically all get hit with ban hammers or restrictions (or are nerfed to the point they're not even worth using). Even just from a symmetry perspective, do people seriously think that Brilliant is on the same power level as other tier 3 inspirations? Like Swift or Energized? (Maybe it would be closer to other inspirations' power levels if it took more time to regenerate higher-PL spells.)

Edited September 17, 2018 by thelee

[thelee]

 

If you want to be able to have "fun" by keeping Brilliant as-is, then you have to accept degenerate combos existing.

 

I personally wouldn't mind. I never even pick BDD because the B stands for Boring.

 

None of this matters anyway; in a patch or two, all of this will be nerfed so far into the ground it will come back up from the sky.

 

 

Normally I think I would agree with you on this... part of the fun of tinkering with complex game systems (and deadfire is way more complicated than poe1) is to find these "opportunities" to exploit some interesting interaction, and there's a lot of metagaming for this particular combo.

 

I think the reason why I come out really hard against Brilliant in particular is for the reason I alluded in previous post: it's just not symmetric. No other tier 3 inspiration is this remotely good. And that really bothers me from a systems perspective ("balance" from a symmetry perspective).

Edited September 17, 2018 by thelee

[AndreaColombo]

I think the reason why I come out really hard against Brilliant in particular is for the reason I alluded in previous post: it's just not symmetric. No other tier 3 inspiration is this remotely good. And that really bothers me from a systems perspective ("balance" from a symmetry perspective).

 

Understood.

 

Personally I think only the DEX and MIG tier-3 inspirations are underwhelming. Buffing them to be a closer match to Brilliant wouldn't be that drastic, IMO, as tier 3 inspirations are generally hard to come by (MIG tier 3 is only for Chanters; DEX tier 3 is only for Wizards and Rogues; RES tier 3 is only given by Paladins for a short duration if they choose a specific talent upgrade; PER tier 3 is only for Fighters.) FWIW I would consider it a better solution than the removal or over-nerfing of Brilliant.

 

Since we're in full disclosure mode, I guess the reason why I'm so adamant in defending this combo is that when I found out about it, I thought I'd finally found a way to enjoy the game again after the over-nerfs salvo of patch 1.1.

[mant2si]

I agree with @thelee the problem is infinity resources, Obsidian if you read this topic please don't nerf BDD or Salvation of Time   At the end Troubadour can cast His Heart Did Fill With the Light of the Dawn fast enough to make Doom Hammer st-unlock and smash bosses without big problems

Edited September 17, 2018 by mant2si

[AndreaColombo]

the problem fun is infinity resources

 

FIFY

Edited September 17, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[mant2si]

 

the problem fun is infinity resources

 

FIFY

 

You right, but ins't Chanter + Wizard (Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardry) + Empower not enough ? I assume that with Sasha sabre you will be able to cast 5 - 6 times L9 abilities per fight in row

Edited September 17, 2018 by mant2si

[Metaturtle]

The combo is a love and hate relationship for me. It's so damn strong, but in the back of my mind I can't stop to think how hard the nerf hammer would hit it considering how it trivializes so many things. Yet here I am with a party that has developed a dependancy on the combo as the backbone to its shenanigans.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Metaturtle

[AndreaColombo]

You right, but ins't Chanter + Wizard (Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardry) + Empower not enough ? I assume that with Sasha sabre you will be able to cast 5 - 6 times L9 abilities per fight in row

 

It's not that it isn't enough so much that it isn't my play style. I rarely play Chanters, and never use that particular Grimoire.

 

Admittedly, I could do so much more with this combo than I actually do. All I use it for is to ensure buffs on my main never run out for the duration of a fight. Stuff like Swift Flurry, Champion's Boon, and the like. As I mentioned in another thread, big numbers in my character record are what makes me feel powerful (no matter how many more powerful builds and combinations I could be using) and having all my buffs on all the time reinforces that. Yes, I could be running more powerful characters if I just let go of my obsession for number-crunching—but that's what puts a smile on me when I play. To each their own

Edited September 17, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[mosspit]

I disagree with this analysis: BDD is just another form of healing. Literally any healing makes you completely unkillable for a length of time in the game, the only difference is that with most heals the length of time is directly connected to how much damage you are taking, whereas with BDD the healing is variable and the length of time is fixed. (To put another way, a Restore for 30 health against someone hitting you for 1 damage every 3 seconds has given you 90 seconds of unkillable immortality, but a fraction of second against a huge enemy army. BDD against an entire army will give you like thousands of effective healing, but against that same guy hitting you for 1 damage every 3 seconds will barely give you double-digits worth of health even with huge intellect or salvation of time.)

BDD isn't just another form healing. It imposes a state in which a character cannot fall unconscious regardless of incoming damage. Which mean incoming damage per instance can be infinite and rate of incoming dmg can be infinite per unit time. And it also does not depend on the target's Health Pool.

 

Honestly, I think healing and BDD are quite different. And I can't really realistically draw a comparison.

 

 

 

 

the problem fun is infinity resources

 

FIFY

 

You right, but ins't Chanter + Wizard (Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardry) + Empower not enough ? I assume that with Sasha sabre you will be able to cast 5 - 6 times L9 abilities per fight in row

 

I guess everyone has a preference to which ability should be nerfed based on one's agenda. For me, I prefer Brilliance to BDD as Brilliance gives me an option to do something rather than auto-attacking in long drawn battles. But I don't think the game is balanced for either tbh.

[1TTFFSSE]

brilliant on martial classes is not a problem and quite "balanced" brilliant on stuff like wizard and priest is just asking for trouble in its current implementation. 

[dunehunter]

 

If you want to be able to have "fun" by keeping Brilliant as-is, then you have to accept degenerate combos existing.

 

I personally wouldn't mind. I never even pick BDD because the B stands for Boring.

 

None of this matters anyway; in a patch or two, all of this will be nerfed so far into the ground it will come back up from the sky.

 

 

HAHAHA, I realize it's so true, BDD, Blade Turning, Brilliant, B = boring yeah :D

[Boeroer]

Brilliant is broken. Mostly because it refills casters' spell uses. For fixed pools (Guile, Bond, Mortification, Discipline, Zeal) it's good but I wouldn't say it's OP. For rechargable pools (wounds, phrases, focus) it's not very potent at all as a tier 3 inspiration. For spell uses it's the total OPness.

 

There's a reason why every wizard wants to use the Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardry - and Brilliant is like having a Grimoire of Endless Wizardry. Spells are balanced in a way that they provide more powerful effects - but in change you only have few uses. If you get unlimited uses... it's OP.

 

Why does the Devil of Caroc Breastplate increase fixed pools by +2 but not spell uses? Becaus it would be too good.

 

The simple solution would be to prevent Brilliant to regain spell uses. OPness solved. But maybe fun dies.

 

A great solution that would also balance Brlliant for all pools would be to let it refill 1 fixed pool point every 12 sec, 1 refillable pool points every 6 sec and 1 spell use every 30 sec. Or something like that. No idea where the perfect balance would be. Just a direction.

 

As it is it's totally OP and that's also the reason we don't see it that often while we see Swift and Resolute and stuff everywhere.

 

Look at those powerful tier-3 inspirations: Swift, Resolute... yeah... PLEASE BUFF! 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Boeroer

[AndreaColombo]

That I know of, Swift is only available to Wizards and Rogues as a self-buff, and Corageous can only be given by Paladins who choose the relevant upgrade to LoH. Besides, Corageous isn’t bad IMO; with the Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardry it would be a godsend.

 

If Brilliant is balanced in a way that prevents spamming Salvation of Time, fun is gone—again, to leave an ability untouched that is but a glorified God Mode.

[Boeroer]

The problem is that Brilliant treats every pool the same (+1 per tick) while those pools are balanced differently for the game. Spells are powerful per use but uses are limited, fixed pools have some good effects per 1 point but aren't endless as well, fluid pools need more points per ability but are refillable.

 

The whole problem is that Brilliant just gives +1 to everything regardless how powerful 1 point per pool is. And also that it gives multiclass chars double the resource than it gives single class chars.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Boeroer

[thelee]

 

I disagree with this analysis: BDD is just another form of healing. Literally any healing makes you completely unkillable for a length of time in the game, the only difference is that with most heals the length of time is directly connected to how much damage you are taking, whereas with BDD the healing is variable and the length of time is fixed. (To put another way, a Restore for 30 health against someone hitting you for 1 damage every 3 seconds has given you 90 seconds of unkillable immortality, but a fraction of second against a huge enemy army. BDD against an entire army will give you like thousands of effective healing, but against that same guy hitting you for 1 damage every 3 seconds will barely give you double-digits worth of health even with huge intellect or salvation of time.)

BDD isn't just another form healing. It imposes a state in which a character cannot fall unconscious regardless of incoming damage. Which mean incoming damage per instance can be infinite and rate of incoming dmg can be infinite per unit time. And it also does not depend on the target's Health Pool.

 

Honestly, I think healing and BDD are quite different. And I can't really realistically draw a comparison.

 

Like I said to AndreoColombo, mathematically they're the same. Healing accomplishes one fundamental thing: prevents you from dying/knockout for a period of time. This is somewhat of an abstraction (in this abstraction, you are at 1 health and any hit would kill you/knock you out), but is also fundamentally true: healing 20 health accomplishes literally nothing in the game unless that 20 health would have prevented you from dying/knockout at some point. And how long that healing prevented you from dying/knockout is what lets you measure the relative strength of a heal.

 

The difference between BDD and a straight-forward "instantaneous" healing is how they accomplish that fundamental thing. Instantaneous heal effects gives you fixed numerical healing, so the effective duration of its dying/knockout protection is contingent on how much damage you're taking. So like in my earlier post, if you Restore someone for 30 health, against a weak fly doing 1 damage every 3 second, you basically prevented knockout for 90 seconds. However, if you are up against twenty Dracoliches, that Restore will prevent death/knockout by a mere fraction of a second. On the flip side, BDD gives you a fixed duration of protection from dying/knockout, but that means its numerical healing is the one that varies. Like I mentioned in the previous post, BDD is extremely effective when you're fighting twenty Dracoliches because it effectively is giving you a Restore for 1000s of health.  But it's extremely ineffective against that weak fly (worse than Restore, in fact).

 

I think some people are getting hung up on the fact that BDD 's tooltip doesn't say that it "heals you" but that's really just an in-game semantics difference. If Deadfire was just a gigantic spreadsheet that you put numbers into, it would be extremely clear that BDD is just another form of healing. I would say that people who have taken high school physics or watch pop astrophysics on TV/youtube might be able to pick this up better, because you might already then be used to equations where you're treating "different things" (like mass/acceleration, mass/energy, or space/time) as essentially interchangeable because what ultimately matters is that the terms in the equation balance out and they're describing the same physical phenomenon. Except here, instead of E= mc^2 or F=ma or K=.5 * mv^2, it's immortalityDuration = damagePrevented / damagePerSec: a spell like Restore sets damagePrevented so the final immortalityDuration varies by damagePerSec whereas BDD sets immortalityDuration which means the damagePrevented depends on damagePerSec.

 

To further clarify, let's talk about Druids. Druids are probably the best way to illustrate the similarities between BDD and a Restore because Druid heals are essentially all periodic heals. That means that depending on the situation, their heals are more BDD-like (inelastic duration, elastic health restored) or more Restore-like (inelastic health restored, elastic duration). Let's say The Moon's Light heals 10 every 3 seconds, and lasts 18s. How long does it prevent death? Against anyone dealing exactly 10damage every 3 seconds, it is exactly like BDD for 18s. Against anyone dealing more than 10damage every 3 seconds, The Moon's Light is essentially a Restore for 10. Against anyone dealing less than 10 damage every 3 seconds, it functions exactly like BDD for 18s plus a Restore for any of the remainder. In effect, BDD is an alternate version of Robust/The Moon's Light that says "I will always heal you an amount every 3 seconds to prevent knockout, but the price is there's no excess for you to keep if you take less damage than needed to stay alive while I'm active."

 

 

The problem is that Brilliant treats every pool the same (+1 per tick) while those pools are balanced differently for the game. Spells are powerful per use but uses are limited, fixed pools have some good effects per 1 point but are endless, fluid pools need more points per ability but are refillable.

 

The whole problem is that Brilliant just gives +1 to everything regardless how powerful 1 point per pool is. And also that it gives multiclass chars double the resource than it gives single class chars.

 

I think the suggestion to scale the amount of time needed to restore a spellcast is a good one. Here's how I imagine it would happen:

 

single-class martial: every 3 s you get 1 resource restored.

single-class spellcaster: every 3 s you get 2 PL worth of spells restored, which accumulates if nothing gets restored and can never restore more than one spell at a time. So if there's a PL1 to be restored, it gets restored. However, if you only have an expended PL3 slot, then you have to wait another 3s (6s total) to have total of 4 PLs worth of restoration "stored up" and then you get your PL3 spell restored. If you only have a PL9 slot available, then you have to wait 15 seconds to get it back. I chose "2 PL" worth of spells because spellcasters get PL9 and the most expensive martial abilities take up 4 martial resources (Trickster bonus ability/spells gives us a pretty explicit mapping), so I think that would roughly equalize the power level for Brilliant between martial and casters.

 

multi-class: Brilliant goes round-robin

multi-class martial A/martial B: at 3s, gets 1 class resource back for A, at 6s gets 1 class resource back for B, at 9s gets 1 class resource back for A, etc. If for some reason A doesn't have any expnded resources, then Brilliant just focuses on B.

multi-class martial A/caster C: at 3s gets 1 class resource back for A, at 6s gets 2 virtual PLs back for C, at 9s gets 1 class resource back for A, at 12s gets 2 virtual PLs back for C, etc.

Edited September 18, 2018 by thelee

[mant2si]

...

Mathematically you right and I really like that this spell give us one more way to survive a lot of damage, but technically BDD is GOD mode, i.e even console commands like KillAllEnemies (which can kill Ukaizo during transitions) can't kill guys under BDD effect, under BDD effect you can get more that 3 injuries and survive instant death abilities

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by mant2si

[thelee]

but technically BDD is GOD mode, i.e even console commands like KillAllEnemies (which can kill Ukaizo during transitions) can't kill guys under BDD effect,

 

HA! that's a fun implementation detail.

 

Reminds me of how in BG2, kill-undead effects (like sunray) or the special ctrl-k death command (turning on cheats) were actually implemented as doing ~1000 unresistable damage to get around the fact that some undead had anti-instakill protections on them.

Edited September 18, 2018 by thelee

[AndreaColombo]

Let's say The Moon's Light heals 10 every 3 seconds, and lasts 18s. How long does it prevent death? Against anyone dealing exactly 10damage every 3 seconds, it is exactly like BDD for 18s. Against anyone dealing more than 10damage every 3 seconds, The Moon's Light is essentially a Restore for 10. Against anyone dealing less than 10 damage every 3 seconds, it functions exactly like BDD for 18s plus a Restore for any of the remainder. In effect, BDD is an alternate version of Robust/The Moon's Light that says "I will always heal you an amount every 3 seconds to prevent knockout, but the price is there's no excess for you to keep if you take less damage than needed to stay alive while I'm active."

 

There is one fundamental difference that sets BDD apart from any healing source in the game: It can't possibly be out-damaged. If your enemy dealt infinite damage per swing, it would still not kill you while under the effects of BDD. This is not just a semantic difference; it is a pivotal difference. Any other healing source can at least potentially be out-damaged by either a very powerful enemy, or a group of enemies focusing fire—and how much damage is required to out-damage the healing effect depends on its base heal plus any modifiers that may or may not be in place.

 

BDD does not depend on ANY modifers and can prevent infinite damage for a duration. This is also known as God Mode, which in every other game I know is a cheat. To allow the base duration of BDD to be extended in any way means opening BDD to all sorts of abuse and cheese.

 

Now, I don't personally mind if it can be abused because, as I said, I never pick it. Abuse it or not, God Mode effects bore me to tears. Boring Death's Door is what it is. I can see how other people may hate the existence of this particular cheesy tactic, but it is also very easy to avoid (I avoid it myself despite being an OCD maximalist and a powergamer, for personal taste eventually wins out past a certain point) and—as noted—it's got fairly high metagaming (and party composition) requirements.

 

I understand that infinite Missile Salvos are a problem. An easily avoidable problem (I don't even have a Wizard in my ideal party), but potentially more immediately intuitive than BDD. However, I doubt Obsidian would do anything more sophisticated than removing an ability entirely from the game, and/or nerfing it into uselessness. Considering their track record of applying multiple fixes to the same problem without testing them individually first, my expectation is that they'll remove Brilliant from the game again and nerf Salvation of Time pretty hard. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I'm not holding my breath.

[mant2si]

 

 

 

 

BDD does not depend on ANY modifers and can prevent infinite damage for a duration. This is also known as God Mode, which in every other game I know is a cheat. To allow the base duration of BDD to be extended in any way means opening BDD to all sorts of abuse and cheese.

 

 

But you forget to say that Arcane Dampener or any other effects which reduce buffs duration usually mean instant death (that why my latest build can't kill BoW dragon solo), on other side full-healed character for example with Unbending can survive such spell

 

So you can easily dispel GOD mode,

 

There also exist Babel spell in WoW and similar mechanic in Dota and BG series also has scrolls with immunity to different things (Undead, Magic, Weapon)

Edited September 18, 2018 by mant2si

[AndreaColombo]

Fair points.