Beast of Winter impressions

[Yria]

Priest + Mystic from the White that Wends or no, the player is never a Priest of Rymrgand. They always have the option to ask about Rymrgand worship. And Ydwin's an extremely biased (despite (because of?) her Scientist background) source of information on both the White and on the faith. 

Problem is, you can still show that you know those aspects of faith if you have high enough religion. And in the base game having high religion was always (or almost always) interchangeable with being a priest, which creates an impression that all priests know basic stuff about other faiths, related to their own deity or no. Ydwin's biased point of view was interesting to listen to, but I'm not talking about her perspective, I'm talking about knowing facts, like what this cult's main doctrine is (which, again, you can know if your religion is around 14+). 

 

Anyway, after finishing the DLC I have to say I enjoyed it a lot. Would have like a bit more pale elf reactivity, and the ending was abrupt, but these are the only negatives I can think of. New lore tidbits about Ukaizo and Waidwen were especially welcome. I even grew to like Rymrgand somewhat, and he was one of my least favorite gods before BoW. 

- Why are you such a jerk?!

- This is my nature.

...yeah, not sure what answer I expected   Will try to ask a more relevant question next time. 

[handsomenat]

This is accurate. Fenstermaker also contributed to some of his lines in Seeker, Slayer, Survivor. I've done the other writing on him in Seeker, Slayer, Survivor and Forgotten Sanctum.

 

Note that Eric was Eder's writer on the original Pillars (as well as narrative lead on that game).

 

I think there's a few valuable things that can be taken from this. One is that this is a collaborative medium, even within individual characters, and it gets real muddy real fast when you start assigning praise and blame for things on specific designers. Another is that changes in Eder between Pillars 1 and Pillars 2 were not the result of the designer focused on him changing.

 

It's been some time since I wrote that but I think I wasn't trying to find out which one of the three writers is "to blame" so to speak. I think I was wondering if three people working on a one character could result in... a little confused design? Because each writer would bring up their own ideas and interpretations which then potentially could not mesh well together? But I wasn't even sure how designing and writing a character in this game looked like in the first place, how collaborative the work generally is. (Because then my "speculations" wouldn't make any sense, right). I also admit I felt bitter about Eder at the moment.

 

This is NOT true of all Pale Elves.

 

As for Rymrgand... well, the gods tend to be pretty selfish.

 

Phew. Thanks for clarifying that, I got unreasonably spooked.

 

Also thank you for taking your time to reply to us. It was a nice surprise.

[OEI_Alex]

 

This is accurate. Fenstermaker also contributed to some of his lines in Seeker, Slayer, Survivor. I've done the other writing on him in Seeker, Slayer, Survivor and Forgotten Sanctum.

 

Note that Eric was Eder's writer on the original Pillars (as well as narrative lead on that game).

 

I think there's a few valuable things that can be taken from this. One is that this is a collaborative medium, even within individual characters, and it gets real muddy real fast when you start assigning praise and blame for things on specific designers. Another is that changes in Eder between Pillars 1 and Pillars 2 were not the result of the designer focused on him changing.

 

It's been some time since I wrote that but I think I wasn't trying to find out which one of the three writers is "to blame" so to speak. I think I was wondering if three people working on a one character could result in... a little confused design? Because each writer would bring up their own ideas and interpretations which then potentially could not mesh well together? But I wasn't even sure how designing and writing a character in this game looked like in the first place, how collaborative the work generally is. (Because then my "speculations" wouldn't make any sense, right). I also admit I felt bitter about Eder at the moment.

 

 

Sorry if that came off as accusatory, that wasn't my intent at all.

 

As for people working together - it can cause issues sometimes, but I think it adds a lot of opportunities, too. Certainly I think my writing for Xoti was much weaker in BoW than in FS because I was just getting to know her as a character in the earlier game. I didn't have trouble with her voice, but I also didn't know everything that was going on under the surface. But luckily Megan was still around and I could ask her questions if I got lost along the way.

 

There's a tendency among players to assign a LOT of responsibility to the writers (and I used to be the same way back before I entered the industry), when there's really a lot of influences on every aspect of the game, companions included. It's a little like how QA will often shoulder the blame for any bugs the community runs into, despite the fact that QA didn't create the bugged content and almost certainly reported it prior to release.  

 

I did the final writing for Serafen and the characters involved in his companion quest (and the VO casting of them), for example, but I didn't create him, I didn't have any hand in his concept art, I didn't plot out his quest, I didn't create any of the characters specific to that quest (like Syri and Udyne - though I did make major revisions to both of those characters when I took responsibility for that questline). 

 

Similarly, I know that our former concept artist Lindsey had tremendous influence over the development of Tekehu's character.

 

(We actually did a talk about this in reference to Vatnir at this year's PAX. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/305031614?t=07h39m36s )

 

 

Just a side note:  Thank you for being such an active and responsive member of the forums here, Alex!  It's really cool to hear your perspective on lore, writing, etc. as someone that's more involved in the process, and you're pretty open to questions and cool about various opinions.

 

 

Also thank you for taking your time to reply to us. It was a nice surprise.

 

 

My pleasure! Thanks to y'all for playing the games and finding them interesting enough to discuss!

[InsaneCommander]

Very nice to read your comments Alex. Thanks!

[Wormerine]

It's been some time since I wrote that but I think I wasn't trying to find out which one of the three writers is "to blame" so to speak. I think I was wondering if three people working on a one character could result in... a little confused design? Because each writer would bring up their own ideas and interpretations which then potentially could not mesh well together? But I wasn't even sure how designing and writing a character in this game looked like in the first place, how collaborative the work generally is. (Because then my "speculations" wouldn't make any sense, right). I also admit I felt bitter about Eder at the moment.

I did find Eder and Aloth to not really work for me. I suppose I never felt like they belonged in the game beyond being likable faces returning for the sequel. Didn't yet connect with Eder's personal quest, and Aloth's ending up in Deadfire seemed too convenient. Though personally to me, the bigger issue I had is that their PoE1 endings felt undermined in order to allow to have them return without the need to write multiple versions of the same character. Aloth with&without Islelmyr's was in my mind different Aloth, while in Deadfire Aloth without Iselmyr is simply an Aloth with less content. 

 

Personally, I think I would prefer to see them as a small cameo but do see a clearer change in who they are though I imagine that properly developing various Eders and Aloths would still take quite a bit of work, even if amount of written words weren't nearly as large. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by Wormerine

[BrokenMask]

I honestly can't really tell difference between PoE1 Eder & Aloth when compared to PoE2 Eder & Aloth, besides that second game's Eder is much more negative about Eothas. I think I actually need help with comparison(then again I remember that Edes was uber dumb when it came to petting dangerous animals in both first game's main game and the White March so I don't get it when someone claim that trait was exaggerated in second game). I do agree that main quest wise Aloth does seems to be there just because(his excuse is decent yeah, but logically he could be anywhere else in world to research Leaden Key as well), but I think Eder has well enough excuse to come with you since he acts most buddy buddy with Watcher out of all first game companions and he does have interest in Eothas

Now when it comes to Pallegina between two games, I thinks she got much more aggressive and harsh in second game? Like, maybe I remember something wrong, but I don't remember her being as harsh and aggressive about gods in first game, like sure she never liked them, but she didn't bring it up as often or as dismissively while in second game she seems to actively hate all priests who aren't the Watcher.

 

I don't know, maybe its just because Pallegina seems to be written to dislike all new party members(she dislikes Tekehu because of godlikes, she dislikes Xoti because of religion, she dislikes Maia because vailian republic and rauatai trade company are competing) so it comes across that way that she seems to have gained a temper when compared to first game party interactions?

[Tagaziel]

I don't remember her being as harsh and aggressive about gods in first game

That's by design, I believe. In PoE1, Pallegina is looking for a meaning behind her curse (sterility, freaky appearance, etc.), so there's a lot of doubt and uncertainty in her personality. She's full of what ifs and why fors. Then she gets to meet her god/parent, Hylea, who gives her a canned response and the equivalent of a divine shrug when she asks for answers. Shortly thereafter, she learns that the gods are fake constructs created by Engwithans to fill the void. So not only is she a victim of divine malice, the divines themselves are essentially con men playing the kith.

 

Pallegina is strong-willed, independent, and proud. She had to overcome tremendous adversity in life both on account of her gender and godlike status. She had to prove her worth over and over again, stubbornly making her way in spite of everything. However, being a godlike is beyond her control or ability to redress. She feels - she was - violated by the gods, and that is made worse by the fact that there's no deeper meaning to it and the gods are fake idols created by a malevolent empire.

 

They are tyrants manipulating the peoples of Eora for their own ends. She cannot abide that for reasons outlined above. It's further aggravated by her patriotism, as despite the money-obsessed horrorshow of the VTC, the Republics are perhaps the most free nations on Eora with definitely the best social mobility opportunities.

 

So, tl;dr: Pallegina hates the gods because they violated her, are fake, and their behavior is antithetical to everything she believes in as a human, paladin, and Vailian.

[BrokenMask]

 

I don't remember her being as harsh and aggressive about gods in first game

That's by design, I believe. In PoE1, Pallegina is looking for a meaning behind her curse (sterility, freaky appearance, etc.), so there's a lot of doubt and uncertainty in her personality. She's full of what ifs and why fors. Then she gets to meet her god/parent, Hylea, who gives her a canned response and the equivalent of a divine shrug when she asks for answers. Shortly thereafter, she learns that the gods are fake constructs created by Engwithans to fill the void. So not only is she a victim of divine malice, the divines themselves are essentially con men playing the kith.

 

Pallegina is strong-willed, independent, and proud. She had to overcome tremendous adversity in life both on account of her gender and godlike status. She had to prove her worth over and over again, stubbornly making her way in spite of everything. However, being a godlike is beyond her control or ability to redress. She feels - she was - violated by the gods, and that is made worse by the fact that there's no deeper meaning to it and the gods are fake idols created by a malevolent empire.

 

They are tyrants manipulating the peoples of Eora for their own ends. She cannot abide that for reasons outlined above. It's further aggravated by her patriotism, as despite the money-obsessed horrorshow of the VTC, the Republics are perhaps the most free nations on Eora with definitely the best social mobility opportunities.

 

So, tl;dr: Pallegina hates the gods because they violated her, are fake, and their behavior is antithetical to everything she believes in as a human, paladin, and Vailian.

 

 

 

I mean, I get that she has reason to be more hostile towards gods after PoE1 than before, but there was more to her character than being angry about being a godlike and being pro-vailian republic. I kinda feel like her PoE2 characterization is all based on her speech to Hylea and her pro-vailian republic attitude. Like, she doesn't really get chance to show her noble side much in PoE2 since most of her reactions are "Yay Watcher said something nice about Vailians or anti religious". (she does get few good moments in Forbidden Sanctum though, including funny one where she derides priests and Eder points out that(in my playthrough's case) Watcher IS a priest and she comments on they are better than most. I think most of the Forbidden Sanctum reactions for her work since they aren't just her deriding fanaticism, they are her deriding really horrible actions that Hand Occult has performed)

 

Like, I think I would like her PoE2 characterization better if instead of being based on her speech to Hylea it was more based on her reaction when she finds out gods aren't real(iirc it was sort of relief? Either way she took it best out of all party members that gods aren't real)

Edited December 20, 2018 by BrokenMask

[InsaneCommander]

The 5 years between the games is enough time for the characters to change their opinions and world view significantly. For example, if Pallegina was exiled, then she must have spent a lot of nights contemplating her situation and remembering the unique experiences in PoE1. I can easily see how that would make her hate the gods more and more as time passed.

[BrokenMask]

The 5 years between the games is enough time for the characters to change their opinions and world view significantly. For example, if Pallegina was exiled, then she must have spent a lot of nights contemplating her situation and remembering the unique experiences in PoE1. I can easily see how that would make her hate the gods more and more as time passed.

 

I'm not discussing about whether it makes sense in universe, I'm pondering about whether it is interesting change in my own opinion.

 

Like, my own opinion is that I'm kinda annoyed there isn't a single party member she gets well along with. Makes me kinda hope Ydwin stretch goal would have been reached since I assume she would have been pro animancy which would have given two something to bond over

[house2fly]

I think she can get along well with Tekehu, but they have to have an argument first

[handsomenat]

Well, this isn't really a topic about Pallegina or returning companions. I started it months ago to talk a little about BoW. But since we're already here, I could share my thoughts on Pallegina because I disagree with you.

 

BrokenMask, you exaggerate when you say Pallegina doesn't get along with anyone. She gets along fine with Aloth and Serafen and is okay with Eder. After their initial fight, she reconciles with Tekehu as well. They finally accept their differences. It takes some time for them to get there, I missed it on my first playthrough.

 

Also, I feel like you forget that every relationship has two sides. Xoti starts arguments with Pallegina herself too, you know. Going as far as asking what have she done to in her past life to deserve becoming a godlike in this one. Trying to preach to her about the weight on her soul. And she feels as passionate about worshiping gods as Pallegina about tearing them down. As for Maia, she seems to be the one who picks up the rivalry by teasing her and calling her a mercenary. Maia sounds very casual about it and Pallegina takes offense.

 

The thing I can agree with you on is that it feels there was more to Pallegina in PoE than just her devotion to the Republics. It gets more personal in her own quest where she is shown to be very vulnerable. I wish she had a different arc in this game but I guess I have to accept that this is a different story.

[BrokenMask]

Well, this isn't really a topic about Pallegina or returning companions. I started it months ago to talk a little about BoW. But since we're already here, I could share my thoughts on Pallegina because I disagree with you.

 

BrokenMask, you exaggerate when you say Pallegina doesn't get along with anyone. She gets along fine with Aloth and Serafen and is okay with Eder. After their initial fight, she reconciles with Tekehu as well. They finally accept their differences. It takes some time for them to get there, I missed it on my first playthrough.

 

Also, I feel like you forget that every relationship has two sides. Xoti starts arguments with Pallegina herself too, you know. Going as far as asking what have she done to in her past life to deserve becoming a godlike in this one. Trying to preach to her about the weight on her soul. And she feels as passionate about worshiping gods as Pallegina about tearing them down. As for Maia, she seems to be the one who picks up the rivalry by teasing her and calling her a mercenary. Maia sounds very casual about it and Pallegina takes offense.

 

The thing I can agree with you on is that it feels there was more to Pallegina in PoE than just her devotion to the Republics. It gets more personal in her own quest where she is shown to be very vulnerable. I wish she had a different arc in this game but I guess I have to accept that this is a different story.

 

I said NEW party members, Aloth and Eder are kinda given(though nobody likes Aloth in either game, everyone prefers Iselmyr. Poor Aloth). That said I did forget about Serafen since I don't remember if I ever had two of them in same party at same time (I do give you that Xoti-Pallegina argument is equally both of their fault, though I still do say that Pallegina's anti-religion negative modifier counter tends to pop up in some really petty situations and some that kinda feel kinda inappropriate/jerk-ish because they ignore the whole context of what happened. That has nothing to do with character writing though, its just game mechanic being silly) I do admit exaggerating though :D

 

Anyway, yeah, I don't dislike Pallegina in second game, but I think we both can agree that we would have wished different arc for her in the second game.

[Pus-in-Boots]

I lost all sympathy I had for Pellagina while playing the second game. I knew she was loyal to the Republics and the ducs but it seems little beyond that remains (except hatred for religion perhaps). Sadly, I was forced to kill her. 

[Tagaziel]

Did you honestly expect a patriot and a loyal soldier to behave any differently on what's basically the frontlines?

[Pus-in-Boots]

Did you honestly expect a patriot and a loyal soldier to behave any differently on what's basically the frontlines?

 

Perhaps it is to be expected although it doesn't make her terribly interesting. Just a soldier carrying out orders. Maia is a soldier and a patriot too and she's much more nuanced.

[InsaneCommander]

Did you honestly expect a patriot and a loyal soldier to behave any differently on what's basically the frontlines?

 

She wasn't so fanatical in the first game. She didn't want to follow her orders and cause trouble to the Dyrwood.

 

However, 5 years in exile were more than enough to change that.

[house2fly]

In the first game she actually wasn't sure her orders would be best in the long run for the republics. She was torn between loyalty to her ducs and loyalty to her country

[Pus-in-Boots]

In the first game she actually wasn't sure her orders would be best in the long run for the republics. She was torn between loyalty to her ducs and loyalty to her country

 

That's true, although I think she had more personality to her in the first game. In the second one she seems to be all business, except for a small detour of her personal quest.

[Tagaziel]

Perhaps it is to be expected although it doesn't make her terribly interesting. Just a soldier carrying out orders. Maia is a soldier and a patriot too and she's much more nuanced.

I found Pallegina plenty of interesting and nuanced. She has a lot to say and offers much needed perspective on the Republics, which are basically exploiting the Deadfire ruthlessly. She's a good counterpoint to the much less formal Maia, too.

[InsaneCommander]

In the first game she actually wasn't sure her orders would be best in the long run for the republics. She was torn between loyalty to her ducs and loyalty to her country

 

Makes sense. But I think she also changed after 5 years.

[Pus-in-Boots]

 

Perhaps it is to be expected although it doesn't make her terribly interesting. Just a soldier carrying out orders. Maia is a soldier and a patriot too and she's much more nuanced.

I found Pallegina plenty of interesting and nuanced. She has a lot to say and offers much needed perspective on the Republics, which are basically exploiting the Deadfire ruthlessly. She's a good counterpoint to the much less formal Maia, too.

 

 

If you say so. It's what you call "formality" that makes me less interested in her, I guess. But to each his or her own.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Pus-in-Boots