Are Rogues Still Worth Playing Without Streetfighter?

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Hey guys,

 

So I'm thinking of making a ranged Mindstalker MC, and I'm trying to decide on a subclass for the Rogue half of the multiclass. Originally, I had planned to go with Streetfighter, but the amount of hoops you have to jump through to get the action speed boost is a little daunting, plus it feels very 'gamey' to me. There are other ways to do it too, but those all require intense micromanagement and fall apart under things like Arcane Dampener. 

 

What I was wondering was... is the disparity between a ranged Rogue with Streetfighter and a ranged Rogue without Streetfighter really that noticeable? The Deadfire Speed Calculator (And keep in mind, this isn't accounting for every potential buff), says that it shaves off a good 2 seconds per auto-attack chain, or a 1 second reload per attack. The extra damage boost is nice, but it's only 50% extra damage compared to 30% (Or 70% compared to 50% when you take Soul Whip into account) which increases by 50% with Deathblows. That said, it also boosts spell recovery by a fair bit. 

 

I'm wondering if I would get just as much enjoyment out of playing as an Assassin (Opening with Arquebus and/or using Shadowing Beyond/invisibility potions to set up half-Assassinate dual pistol full attacks) or a no-Subclass Rogue? I know the recovery reduction is pretty significant, but the ways you have to go about getting it on a ranged character feel very gamey to me. 

[Boeroer]

I'm using a Trickster atm and for my build it's def. better than a Streetfighter. But Streetfighter is too strong. Basically only because of the blunderbuss modal. If he could trigger Heating Up only by "really" getting flanked it would be different.

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

I'm using a Trickster atm and for my build it's def. better than a Streetfighter. But Streetfighter is too strong. Basically only because of the blunderbuss modal. If he could trigger Heating Up only by "really" getting flanked it would be different.

 

Hmm. Alright then. Suppose I'll stick with Streetfighter then. I'll just use one weapon in each hand until I can get better stuff. 

[Haplok]

Streetfighter gets 50% extra sneak damage. So early on its +80% vs +30%.

[Loren Tyr]

Just because Streetfighter is overpowered if you jump through a bunch of hoops doesn't mean the other subclasses aren't worth playing though. Especially with a ranged rogue, unless you want to be using Blunderbusses all the time (which of course in terms of range and penetration aren't great, and with Powder Burns you'd be at -15 ACC all the time compared to eg. Pistol). 

 

For ranged, I would always go Assassin (for me, Trickster doesn't at enough for that kind of build and I prefer keeping the full Sneak Attack bonus). The damage debuff doesn't come into play that much so isn't much of a drawback, so even if you only use Assassinate at the beginning of combat and maybe occasionally with a Shadowing Beyond / Smoke Veil / Invisibility Potion it's still useful. Especially if you are using poison, which is very apt for an Assassin of course. Nailing a tough enemy with a good poison effect at the beginning of combat can be very useful. Also good with explosives of course, but those don't work as well with Smoke Veil unfortunately. 

[gkathellar]

Trickster is phenomenal for any kind of tank. Assassin is pretty great if you can keep your distance and/or are MCing with something absurdly durable. Even a vanilla rogue gets some great single-target powers in general.

[mosspit]

I would say Assassin can work even when in melee. It has a decent synergy with the option to turn invisible to drop aggro when being engaged in an unfavorable situation.

 

But Assassin with Backstab will be slightly clunky to use in ranged due to the conditions to activate Backstab. So maybe no need to pick up Backstab.

[grasida]

I'm using a Trickster atm and for my build it's def. better than a Streetfighter. But Streetfighter is too strong. Basically only because of the blunderbuss modal. If he could trigger Heating Up only by "really" getting flanked it would be different.

I don’t like that it’s attached to flanked at all, rather than a passive that scales with number of threats and health lost. Not only does the attachment to flanked mean you can activate it at will with a blunderbuss, it also makes equipment with immunity to flanked break your build. These kind of situations where specific pieces of equipment are arbitrarily superior or worthless because of extremely specific mechanics feel like really clumsy design.

[Verde]

Trickster is quite a bit more powerful due to the buffs. You're essentially getting an Illusionist/Rogue with a very minor penalty.

Multis and singles extremely well. Going to do a single run through soon, just did a Trickster/Beguiler run - no one was safe from being disabled. I think it also pairs well with Soulblade.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Verde

[Graschwar]

Hi, i have a similar problem:

 

I want to play an assassin, but im unsure what kind of second class i should choose. Im thinking of:

 

soulblade

kind wayfarer

shattered pillar

or

skald

 

any thoughts on this? Help is appreciated

Edited July 21, 2018 by Graschwar

[Dorftek]

Hi, i have a similar problem:

 

I want to play an assassin, but im unsure what kind of second class i should choose. Im thinking of:

 

soulblade

kind wayfarer

shattered pillar

or

skald

 

any thoughts on this? Help is appreciated

What kind of weapons are u planning to use?

[Graschwar]

 

Hi, i have a similar problem:

 

I want to play an assassin, but im unsure what kind of second class i should choose. Im thinking of:

 

soulblade

kind wayfarer

shattered pillar

or

skald

 

any thoughts on this? Help is appreciated

What kind of weapons are u planning to use?

 

well personally i like 2 handers more, but from what i have experienced, it seems like duals are the better choice.

 

Stats are sth like this:

 

MIght 18

Con 10

Dex 19

Per 18

Int 10

Per at 3

 

Race: Death-Godlike (Sry there is no Alternative: love the looks and background)

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Trickster is quite a bit more powerful due to the buffs. You're essentially getting an Illusionist/Rogue with a very minor penalty.

Multis and singles extremely well. Going to do a single run through soon, just did a Trickster/Beguiler run - no one was safe from being disabled. I think it also pairs well with Soulblade.

 

Hmm... Was it? The Sneak Attack damage penalty and Guile management didn't hurt that much? 

 

 

Just because Streetfighter is overpowered if you jump through a bunch of hoops doesn't mean the other subclasses aren't worth playing though. Especially with a ranged rogue, unless you want to be using Blunderbusses all the time (which of course in terms of range and penetration aren't great, and with Powder Burns you'd be at -15 ACC all the time compared to eg. Pistol). 

 

For ranged, I would always go Assassin (for me, Trickster doesn't at enough for that kind of build and I prefer keeping the full Sneak Attack bonus). The damage debuff doesn't come into play that much so isn't much of a drawback, so even if you only use Assassinate at the beginning of combat and maybe occasionally with a Shadowing Beyond / Smoke Veil / Invisibility Potion it's still useful. Especially if you are using poison, which is very apt for an Assassin of course. Nailing a tough enemy with a good poison effect at the beginning of combat can be very useful. Also good with explosives of course, but those don't work as well with Smoke Veil unfortunately. 

 

Yeah, that's the big issue for me. The character I'm wanting to play is supposed to be a spy/assassin, not someone who constantly burns his hands every time he fights something. 

[Verde]

The penalty is a measly -10%. That's nothing.

 

And the Guile management was easy. All of the Trickster abilities are 1-2 Guile minus a few like Shadow Step and Withering Strike (which you don't need). It was the ultimate assist class, disabling and setting up my teammates for monstrous damage (lots of Rogue multis).

 

My only gripe was too much focus. Hence why I think Trickster/Soulblade is better (therefore you don't need Final Blow).

 

I think Streetfighter is the most overrated class in the game. You have to abuse the modal of a single weapon class, otherwise you're effectiveness is surpassed (and it's super duper boring imho). I played one previous and it bored me to tears.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Verde

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

The penalty is a measly -10%. That's nothing.

 

And the Guile management was easy. All of the Trickster abilities are 1-2 Guile minus a few like Shadow Step and Withering Strike (which you don't need). It was the ultimate assist class, disabling and setting up my teammates for monstrous damage (lots of Rogue multis).

 

My only gripe was too much focus. Hence why I think Trickster/Soulblade is better (therefore you don't need Final Blow).

 

I think Streetfighter is the most overrated class in the game. You have to abuse the modal of a single weapon class, otherwise you're effectiveness is surpassed (and it's super duper boring imho). I played one previous and it bored me to tears.

 

Yeah, but I wanna be a super cool DPS class and deal a lot of damage. I don't like the idea of just playing setup for the rest of my party to have all the fun. 

[gkathellar]

Trickster sacrifices 10% additive damage for a bunch of really strong defensive and crowd-control abilities, several of which actually help you do more damage. It does not make you into a support character, it makes you into a warrior-illusionist deflection-tank murder machine with or without a party.

[Verde]

That's why I said Trickster/Soulblade...

 

At some point you're going to have to make a decision Cyrus. Lots of options out there.

Edited July 22, 2018 by Verde

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

That's why I said Trickster/Soulblade...

 

At some point you're going to have to make a decision Cyrus. Lots of options out there.

 

Well, I also want to play a ranged character, so Soul Blade doesn't really help me. That said!

 

 

Trickster sacrifices 10% additive damage for a bunch of really strong defensive and crowd-control abilities, several of which actually help you do more damage. It does not make you into a support character, it makes you into a warrior-illusionist deflection-tank murder machine with or without a party.

 

Doesn't it basically give you every good Illusion spell now? I keep forgetting it's been tremendously buffed. 

 

Alright - so, final decision time.

 

Assassin/Ascendant dual-pistol Mindstalker. Done. Bam. Satisfactory. 

Edited July 22, 2018 by Cyrus_Blackfeather

[no1fanboy]

I wouldnt roll and assassin they are very weak. Assassinate doesn't work with dual wielding and you cop an extra 15% damage hit.

 

To compensate for the 15% damage hit you will have to put an extra 3 points in con at character creation or you will be to squishy. 

 

You would be far better of to not roll an assassin and put an extra 3 points into Might for a permanent 10% passive damage bonus and have no penalty on the damage you take

 

just another stupid balancing mistake from Obsidian 

Edited July 22, 2018 by no1fanboy

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

I wouldnt roll and assassin they are very weak. Assassinate doesn't work with dual wielding and you cop an extra 15% damage hit.

 

To compensate for the 15% damage hit you will have to put an extra 3 points in con at character creation or you will be to squishy. 

 

You would be far better of to not roll an assassin and put an extra 3 points into Might for a permanent 10% passive damage bonus and have no penalty on the damage you take

 

just another stupid balancing mistake from Obsidian 

 

Hmm. I wonder if there's a way to fix that with a mod - make it so that Stealth isn't broken until both hits of a Full Attack resolve...? That'd probably be impossible though, since the enemy would obviously be alerted by the "Hey, I just got shot in the head!" thing. Maybe a mod could make it so that Assassinate applies to both attacks, regardless. That'd make the subclass a lot more desireable, especially for dual wielders whether melee or ranged.

 

Another option would be adding a scaling Poison PL bonus to Assassin just to make poisons have a little more synergy with them, especially since Alchemy got nerfed. That'd definitely feel thematic. 

 

Or I could just use Arquebuses, but those are boring. 

 

That said, if neither of those changes can be implemented, Trickster is looking like a pretty valid second choice. 

[rheingold]

Trickster sacrifices 10% additive damage for a bunch of really strong defensive and crowd-control abilities, several of which actually help you do more damage. It does not make you into a support character, it makes you into a warrior-illusionist deflection-tank murder machine with or without a party.

 

The rogue classes are all pretty darn good, but I’d second gkathellar, trickster, single or multi is great. Has so many tools and options. And frankly doesn’t loose much to street fighter in combat due to the buffs. Reminds me of my awesome BG2 mage/rogue, except I don’t even need to take multi. And trickster/beguiler is absolutely bat**** insane at the moment.... can handle just about anything.

[Loren Tyr]

I wouldnt roll and assassin they are very weak. Assassinate doesn't work with dual wielding and you cop an extra 15% damage hit.

 

To compensate for the 15% damage hit you will have to put an extra 3 points in con at character creation or you will be to squishy. 

 

You would be far better of to not roll an assassin and put an extra 3 points into Might for a permanent 10% passive damage bonus and have no penalty on the damage you take

 

just another stupid balancing mistake from Obsidian 

 

Or you don't get the extra CON and just accept the additional squishiness, which is kinda the point of the subclass. And it's really not that big of a deal if you're attacking from range and aren't likely to get hit all that much. And in practice it won't actually be 15% more damage anyway, since it's an additively stacking damage modifier.

[gkathellar]

 

I wouldnt roll and assassin they are very weak. Assassinate doesn't work with dual wielding and you cop an extra 15% damage hit.

 

To compensate for the 15% damage hit you will have to put an extra 3 points in con at character creation or you will be to squishy. 

 

You would be far better of to not roll an assassin and put an extra 3 points into Might for a permanent 10% passive damage bonus and have no penalty on the damage you take

 

just another stupid balancing mistake from Obsidian 

 

Or you don't get the extra CON and just accept the additional squishiness, which is kinda the point of the subclass. And it's really not that big of a deal if you're attacking from range and aren't likely to get hit all that much. And in practice it won't actually be 15% more damage anyway, since it's an additively stacking damage modifier.

 

 

Indeed. The whole point of assassin is that you specifically build around not taking damage, such that you render the slight increase to damage received irrelevant. They could probably use a small buff, but they are perfectly serviceable as-is.

[Verde]

*thumbs up*

[dunehunter]

Vanila rogue no, subclass rogue yes.