Rogue Assassin question. Does anyone actually bother using it?

[no1fanboy]

Since they nerfed backstab i must admit i dont even bother trying to setup assasinate any more. It costs a huge amount of guile to setup aswell with having to go invis.

 

I find that even using it for the opening strike of combat isnt all that effective either as you have to go invis pretty much straight away after the opening strike or your rogue will get swamped. Its just not worth the guile cost of going invis.

 

It can be useful every now and then but i probably will never be rolling an assassin again unless they get a buff.

Edited July 15, 2018 by no1fanboy

[try2handing]

Is it the passive +100% damage when attacking from stealth? How was it nerfed again? Sorry haven't been keeping up with updates for a while.

[acbatchelor]

It was nerfed from 150% to 100%.

[Frog Man]

I don’t bc I’m lazy. I prefer my rogues to either charge in with dual wield or plink away with arrows. I evidently can’t be bothered to worry about precise positioning for backstabs.

 

God, why am I so lazy?

[dunehunter]

Backstab is super powerful in early game(lvl 1 - 5), but since it's an additive damage bonus, it's becomes less and less useful in late game. A high level rogue can get +60% legendary weapon bonus, +60% sneak attack bonus, +50% death attack bonus, why bother waste guile to do backstab?

[try2handing]

I liked doing stealth backstab for some time after I first got that passive, cause it definitely was cool. But I admit after that I didn't bother with it much, for a couple of reasons: 1) if you use the smoke bomb skill as your stealth tool (like I did) then you can't do it too many times, especially since you have other skills to spend guile on (I suppose you could spam potion of invisibility, but never tried myself); 2) rogues already always have the passive sneak damage anyway, which becomes always active once you take the distracting engagement passive or whatever it's called; 3) game was getting easier and easier anyway :\.

 

The constant sneak damage itself already reduces the incentive to do stealth backstab, but the recovery time mechanics reduces that even further. Going invisible repeatedly just slows down your attack rate, so I doubt there is a big difference between "basic attack + sneak damage" and "repeated stealth backstab" in the long run, especially if the rogue is dual-wielding. Stealth backstab is probably good only when you want to one-shot someone. Like when you scout and spot a group of enemies, want to one-shot the mage, then stealth back out to basic attack.

 

So anyway, the nerf makes little difference to me personally, cause I never relied on it all that much and chances are it's like that for most players.

Edited July 15, 2018 by try2handing

[Loren Tyr]

The main draw of the Assassin is his passive though, which works great for an opening shot, and similarly for getting stuff like that to stick very well mid-combat using invisibility abilities and potions. So yeah, I'd say for any primarily ranged rogue the Assassin subclass is an obvious choice; the damage debuff is much less relevant then so there's little reason not to get it over no subclass, and Trickster and Streetfighter don't work well for ranged for the most part. Even if you only use it for the opening shot it's a very useful bonus to have. 

 

Whether a melee Assassin is viable, I'd still say so. It's probably not the most optimal build, but who cares; if it's the kind of character you like playing it's certainly possible. Even with Backstab nerfed down, it's still a +100% you can use alongside the Assassinate bonus, especially if you also have something like Flames of Devotion that scales well off of high damage attacks.

 

In general though, melee Assassin with Backstab is more of a niche build. Much harder and finicky to pull off. But then again, if you're an assassin it wouldn't make that much sense to want to get close to your target anyway. Historically, the types of weaponry that come to mind when you're thinking assassin I'd say are things like poison, bombs and ranged weapons. All of which do work great in game as well, as does the slightly less historical weapon of the Fireball.

 

About getting swamped though, helps a lot to give the enemy a different target first by unstealthing a tankier character to focus on just before you strike. Or by just engaging with some other characters first and maneauvring your Assassin with Escape (which doesn't break stealth if you pick your landing spot well). You probably want your rogue somewhere at their back line anyway, to kill off squishier targets there.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Loren Tyr

[Purudaya]

The problem is that the Assassinate bonus isn't really all that great and it only triggers on crit (AND only from stealth), which means that even with the accuracy bonus there are still plenty of times it won't proc. You can use single weapon style to augment this a little bit, but the whole class is built around full attacks so you wind up becoming a one trick pony (smoke veil + backstab) with a trick that 1. isn't that great and 2. you can only pull off a few times per fight (after which you become useless and die).

 

I love the idea of a single-blade assassin jumping in and out stealth and scoring massive dps bursts, confusing and disabling enemies at the expense of survivability. And I was really excited when I first saw that Deadfire introduced smoke veil - but I've tried every martial/assassin build combination and there isn't a single one that can hold up against martial/streetfighter, martial/trickster, or even single class rogue. 

Any one of the following would bring the class up to par:

1. Make backstab improve with power level (+100% base with the same progression as sneak attack, which will help incentivize single class builds).
 

2. Leave backstab alone but change "assassinate" to just deal double backstab damage. You should be able to actually, you know, *assassinate* people with it.

3. Leave backstab/assassinate alone but reduce the cost of smoke veil and shadowing beyond by 1 each so that backstabs can be attempted more frequently. Seriously, these abilities are way too expensive for what's essentially a 5 second non-healing "Withdraw" - maybe give escape some extra deflection bonus or a short DEX inspiration to keep it competitive. Probably the solution that would improve gameplay the most.

 

4. Give assassins some kind of bonus when using poison consumables - like Nalpazca but on a single-attack basis.

5. FFS, balance one handed style against full attacks. Two weapon style increases action speed, so let one-handed style reduce recovery by a smaller amount. Increase the accuracy/conversion bonus. Don't add any new bonuses but let one-handed strike twice (and let two-handed strike in a cone) with full attacks. Anything, really.

As it stands, I can probably land 3 successful backstabs per fight (I always lose 1 because an enemy usually moves out of range just as I'm about to strike) after which there's nothing left to do and I spend the rest of the fight auto-attacking. The implementation of assassins is really terrible right now - it's also the only subclass to get zero love in any of the patches thus far iirc, so hopefully they're going to do some serious reworking for 2.0. 

Edited July 15, 2018 by Purudaya

[InsaneCommander]

I ended up using my assassin mostly from range. Usually I use arterial strike before the combat even begins and get invisible to use devastating blow when the enemies get bloodied.

 

I make as many invisibility potions as I can, but there isn't much onyx so I can't use them all the time.

[Loren Tyr]

The problem is that the Assassinate bonus isn't really all that great and it only triggers on crit (AND only from stealth), which means that even with the accuracy bonus there are still plenty of times it won't proc. You can use single weapon style to augment this a little bit, but the whole class is built around full attacks so you wind up becoming a one trick pony (smoke veil + backstab) with a trick that 1. isn't that great and 2. you can only pull off a few times per fight (after which you become useless and die).

 

I love the idea of a single-blade assassin jumping in and out stealth and scoring massive dps bursts, confusing and disabling enemies at the expense of survivability. And I was really excited when I first saw that Deadfire introduced smoke veil - but I've tried every martial/assassin build combination and there isn't a single one that can hold up against martial/streetfighter, martial/trickster, or even single class rogue. 

 

The Assassinate bonus always applies when you attack from stealth/invisibility, not just on crit. The +50% damage may be crit only, but you still always get the +25 ACC and +4 PER. Those are rather useful by themselves already. I'm also not sure how you end up being a one-trick pony, doing a couple of backstabs and then both becoming useless as well as auto-attacking. I have found auto-attacking to be fairly useful, myself, so this seems somewhat contradictory. Characters hardly stop being useful when they run out of class resources, I should think. Nor do they just keel over and die at that point. Besides, if you have a multi-class character there's all the abilities of the second class to be used as well, even if you've run through all your guile (and invisibility potions). Even if you're a single class assassin there's always consumables you can put to good use. 

 

If you're playing a melee assassin with the aim of continuously backstabbing through every fight, you can't really complain that it becomes a one-trick pony; you'd literally be setting it up that way. And indeed it won't work that well, since you'll run out of guile fairly quickly. But just because that particular set-up doesn't work well, doesn't mean you can't play melee assassins at all, you just have to make it more versatile. It will undeniably remain more of a niche build, but I would argue that that's part of the fun of building these types of characters. Arguably it also should be; it's an assassin, in the middle of a melee isn't really their natural habitat anyway. Not that I'd mind if Backstab or Smoke Veil got a bit of a buff, mind you. But as a (sub)class, Assassin certainly isn't below par. 

Edited July 15, 2018 by Loren Tyr

[Purudaya]

 

The problem is that the Assassinate bonus isn't really all that great and it only triggers on crit (AND only from stealth), which means that even with the accuracy bonus there are still plenty of times it won't proc. You can use single weapon style to augment this a little bit, but the whole class is built around full attacks so you wind up becoming a one trick pony (smoke veil + backstab) with a trick that 1. isn't that great and 2. you can only pull off a few times per fight (after which you become useless and die).

 

I love the idea of a single-blade assassin jumping in and out stealth and scoring massive dps bursts, confusing and disabling enemies at the expense of survivability. And I was really excited when I first saw that Deadfire introduced smoke veil - but I've tried every martial/assassin build combination and there isn't a single one that can hold up against martial/streetfighter, martial/trickster, or even single class rogue. 

 

The Assassinate bonus always applies when you attack from stealth/invisibility, not just on crit. The +50% damage may be crit only, but you still always get the +25 ACC and +4 PER. Those are rather useful by themselves already. I'm also not sure how you end up being a one-trick pony, doing a couple of backstabs and then both becoming useless as well as auto-attacking. I have found auto-attacking to be fairly useful, myself, so this seems somewhat contradictory. Characters hardly stop being useful when they run out of class resources, I should think. 

 

The assassin is somewhat different because it takes bonus damage (that 15% adds up quick) and the necessary stat distribution (max dexterity, perception, and might) to proc crits and improve speed means major sacrifices to health and defenses. An assassin fresh out of guile plays an awful lot like a wizard fresh out of spells when engaged directly, except the handful of hits it gets off on the way down do a little more damage. You could spam invisibility potions (harder to do than you might think given their cost/ingredient list) or do a multi, but again - a martial/assassin multi doesn't approach nearly the DPS of any other martial/rogue multi or even a rogue single class focusing on two-weapon style and full attacks.

 

As for the assassinate passive, there's not really much I can say except that it's widely seen as underwhelming. You have to go through so much to set up that comparatively minor primary attack bonus (stealth, wait for enemy to engage new target if applicable, reposition, attack) while any other rogue with two-weapon style would spend that time laying down so much hell that the DPS tradeoff just isn't worth it. Which is worth more, a single-attack PEN bonus that can be used max 4 times per fight (late game, assuming you are able to connect 4 times) or Heating Up/On The Edge letting you use an ability/make an attack roughly every second? What other martial class experiences its malus every time it gets hit but only gets to apply its bonus to a couple of attacks per fight?

 

If you're playing a melee assassin with the aim of continuously backstabbing through every fight, you can't really complain that it becomes a one-trick pony; you'd literally be setting it up that way. And indeed it won't work that well, since you'll run out of guile fairly quickly. But just because that particular set-up doesn't work well, doesn't mean you can't play melee assassins at all, you just have to make it more versatile. It will undeniably remain more of a niche build, but I would argue that that's part of the fun of building these types of characters. Arguably it also should be; it's an assassin, in the middle of a melee isn't really their natural habitat anyway. Not that I'd mind if Backstab or Smoke Veil got a bit of a buff, mind you. But as a (sub)class, Assassin certainly isn't below par. 

 

It becomes a one trick pony because, again, you need to use one-handed style to take advantage of the assassin's innate ability and maximize crit damage from stealth. Once you're kitted for that, it doesn't make sense to spend 2 guile on a full attack ability that you only get half of the damage potential from, so you spend all of your guile (rightfully) on smoke veil. I'd welcome you to attempt some more versatile assassins, but you'll eventually run into that moment where you realize your stealth component isn't paying off enough or you've gimped yourself in toe-to-toe combat and you'll inevitably start to wish you'd rolled a streetfighter or trickster instead. 

 

You could fix all of this today by giving all weapon styles a different full attack bonus rather than only letting two-weapon style benefit from it. But as it stands assassins don't hold up vs. other rogue, martial/rogue multi, and even a lot of other martial multi styles (and I've tested every single configuration). You don't make a subclass that relies on stealth and primary attacks in a class tree that otherwise encourages speed and full attacks without offering something substantial to balance the two paths out. 

[Loren Tyr]

For you it becomes a one-trick pony because seemingly that's how you're building it. And are then also comparing it in terms of DPS with completely different kinds of builds, when a more specialised Assassin-type build isn't designed specifically to maximize DPS in the first place. Clearly the character doesn't suit your playstyle, but that doesn't mean it is not viable at all.

 

And your claims (and those of unnamed others, apparently) to the contrary, the Assassinate is hardly underwhelming (maybe you just feel that way because you seem to keep forgetting parts of it?). It's certainly quite capable of beefing up my Assassin-Evoker's fireballs, for one thing. And there is also a very nice Assassin multi explosives build in the build section that makes very good use of it. 

[InsaneCommander]

For you it becomes a one-trick pony because seemingly that's how you're building it. And are then also comparing it in terms of DPS with completely different kinds of builds, when a more specialised Assassin-type build isn't designed specifically to maximize DPS in the first place. Clearly the character doesn't suit your playstyle, but that doesn't mean it is not viable at all.

 

And your claims (and those of unnamed others, apparently) to the contrary, the Assassinate is hardly underwhelming (maybe you just feel that way because you seem to keep forgetting parts of it?). It's certainly quite capable of beefing up my Assassin-Evoker's fireballs, for one thing. And there is also a very nice Assassin multi explosives build in the build section that makes very good use of it. 

 

Do you wipe out groups of enemies with a fireball, when attacking from stealth, before the battle starts?

 

I'm playing as a singleclass assassin, but I'll definitely have an assassin/evoker on my custom party when I have one.

[Purudaya]

 

 

 

For you it becomes a one-trick pony because seemingly that's how you're building it. And are then also comparing it in terms of DPS with completely different kinds of builds, when a more specialised Assassin-type build isn't designed specifically to maximize DPS in the first place. Clearly the character doesn't suit your playstyle, but that doesn't mean it is not viable at all.

 

And your claims (and those of unnamed others, apparently) to the contrary, the Assassinate is hardly underwhelming (maybe you just feel that way because you seem to keep forgetting parts of it?). It's certainly quite capable of beefing up my Assassin-Evoker's fireballs, for one thing. And there is also a very nice Assassin multi explosives build in the build section that makes very good use of it. 

 

There's really no need for your condescension. I'm not "forgetting" parts of the assassinate bonus, I'm saying that a bonus that you only get to benefit from 1-4 times per battle is outweighed by a malus that you experience every single time you get hit. I've also run a stealth-based rogue for my first playthrough in every single CRPG I've ever played over the past 20 years, so don't pontificate to me about my playstyle - I'm glad you're enjoying your assassin/evoker's fireballs, but my post was specifically about martial builds (with which assassins are traditionally associated) and the shortcomings thereof. 

 

As for the "unnamed others" that you apparently think I'm making up, feel free to do a topic search for "backstab" or "assassinate" and see what other users have to say about the subclass post 1.1. Or check out RPG Division's build, which has to resort to greatsword backstabs/weapon switching and lays out the problems with assassins pretty succinctly: 

 

I've already explained to you why primary attack and full attack styles lead martial rogue builds down two different paths (and why one of those paths is significantly more optimal than the other), but you don't seem interested in addressing the actual points beyond "the class just isn't for you" or the bizarre assertion that comparing builds within the same class is an illegitimate means for gauging their strength. If you want to discuss builds that's great, but responding to perfectly reasoned posts by talking down to people is a poor way of generating productive discourse.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Purudaya

[Loren Tyr]

Do you wipe out groups of enemies with a fireball, when attacking from stealth, before the battle starts?

 

I'm playing as a singleclass assassin, but I'll definitely have an assassin/evoker on my custom party when I have one.

 

Usually a bit after the battle starts, to give enemies a chance to clump up a bit more. Gives a chance to hit them with a Reflex debuff as well, which I'm liable to do anyway. Evoker Fireballs (and the like) already hit quite nicely by themselves of course, getting a lot of extra accuracy, PEN (high Fire AR not being too uncommon, after all), and an excellent chance to get some beefed up crits going definitely helps make a mark. And obviously you can Smoke Veil and hit them again whenever needed. Or start popping off some missiles, etc. I'm not too far in with this character yet, alternating a bit, but certainly having fun with it .

[Loren Tyr]

There's really no need for your condescension. I'm not "forgetting" parts of the assassinate bonus, I'm saying that a bonus that you only get to benefit from 1-4 times per battle is outweighed by a malus that you experience every single time you get hit. I've also run a stealth-based rogue for my first playthrough in every single CRPG I've ever played over the past 20 years, so don't pontificate to me about my playstyle - I'm glad you're enjoying your assassin/evoker's fireballs, but my post was specifically about martial builds (with which assassins are traditionally associated) and the shortcomings thereof. 

[...]

I've already explained to you why primary attack and full attack styles lead martial rogue builds down two different paths (and why one of those paths is significantly more optimal than the other), but you don't seem interested in addressing the actual points beyond "the class just isn't for you" or the bizarre assertion that comparing builds within the same class is an illegitimate means for gauging their strength. If you want to discuss builds that's great, but responding to perfectly reasoned posts by talking down to people is a poor way of generating productive discourse.

 

 

Except that you say things like "the bonus only triggers on a crit" and rhetorically asking whether a single attack PEN bonus is better than the Streetfighter bonuses. Rather seems like you *are* forgetting some bits there. And similarly, when you start suggesting things like the Assassinate ability being underwhelming and the class being subpar, it rather seems like you're talking about the class and its abilities as a whole, not just melee Assassin builds. Which then raises the question what those statements are actually based on, given that the thrust of your arguments do seem to be specifically about the viability of a melee build. If that's all you're talking about, indeed my Evoker Assassin is not relevant; but then your claims about the class in general are irrelevant as well, so why make them?

 

As for pontificating about your playstyle... yeah, I think I will actually. It seems relevant. You seem to be quite adamant about what is necessary for a melee assassin build. You *have* to go for a 1H crit build, you *have* to heavily invest in MIG/PER/DEX only, you *have* to turn it into a one-trick pony (never mind consumables and multi-classing), quickly blow through your Guile, start uselessly (?) auto-attacking and die. It remains a bit misty exactly why that would be the only or optimal way though; perfectly reasoned, I think not. And it does rather suggest that this may be informed more by your particular preferences in playstyle than you think. And apparently the video you're referencing doesn't agree, if it suggests using a Great Sword instead. So kindly do get of your high horse, would you?

 

I have also at no point claimed that it is illegitimate to compare builds within a class. What's more, you can even compare them across classes as well! Possibilities are endless. It's not necessarily a very useful comparison if the different builds don't aim to fill roughly the same role though, which was my point. I can make a high DPS Fighter build and compare this to a dedicated tank Fighter build, to see which has the higher DPS; the results of such a comparison will be as predictable as they are pointless. Similarly, perhaps the point of a particular Assassin build is for example to quickly take out individual, possibly hard to reach targets. I would think it's quite reasonable to judge a build in relation to its intended role, an apparently very bizarre thought in your world. 

 

Good luck with 'generating positive discourse' though. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it some day.

[Purudaya]

 

There's really no need for your condescension. I'm not "forgetting" parts of the assassinate bonus, I'm saying that a bonus that you only get to benefit from 1-4 times per battle is outweighed by a malus that you experience every single time you get hit. I've also run a stealth-based rogue for my first playthrough in every single CRPG I've ever played over the past 20 years, so don't pontificate to me about my playstyle - I'm glad you're enjoying your assassin/evoker's fireballs, but my post was specifically about martial builds (with which assassins are traditionally associated) and the shortcomings thereof. 

[...]

I've already explained to you why primary attack and full attack styles lead martial rogue builds down two different paths (and why one of those paths is significantly more optimal than the other), but you don't seem interested in addressing the actual points beyond "the class just isn't for you" or the bizarre assertion that comparing builds within the same class is an illegitimate means for gauging their strength. If you want to discuss builds that's great, but responding to perfectly reasoned posts by talking down to people is a poor way of generating productive discourse.

 

 

Except that you say things like "the bonus only triggers on a crit" and rhetorically asking whether a single attack PEN bonus is better than the Streetfighter bonuses. Rather seems like you *are* forgetting some bits there. And similarly, when you start suggesting things like the Assassinate ability being underwhelming and the class being subpar, it rather seems like you're talking about the class and its abilities as a whole, not just melee Assassin builds. Which then raises the question what those statements are actually based on, given that the thrust of your arguments do seem to be specifically about the viability of a melee build. If that's all you're talking about, indeed my Evoker Assassin is not relevant; but then your claims about the class in general are irrelevant as well, so why make them?

 

As for pontificating about your playstyle... yeah, I think I will actually. It seems relevant. You seem to be quite adamant about what is necessary for a melee assassin build. You *have* to go for a 1H crit build, you *have* to heavily invest in MIG/PER/DEX only, you *have* to turn it into a one-trick pony (never mind consumables and multi-classing), quickly blow through your Guile, start uselessly (?) auto-attacking and die. It remains a bit misty exactly why that would be the only or optimal way though; perfectly reasoned, I think not. And it does rather suggest that this may be informed more by your particular preferences in playstyle than you think. And apparently the video you're referencing doesn't agree, if it suggests using a Great Sword instead. So kindly do get of your high horse, would you?

 

I have also at no point claimed that it is illegitimate to compare builds within a class. What's more, you can even compare them across classes as well! Possibilities are endless. It's not necessarily a very useful comparison if the different builds don't aim to fill roughly the same role though, which was my point. I can make a high DPS Fighter build and compare this to a dedicated tank Fighter build, to see which has the higher DPS; the results of such a comparison will be as predictable as they are pointless. Similarly, perhaps the point of a particular Assassin build is for example to quickly take out individual, possibly hard to reach targets. I would think it's quite reasonable to judge a build in relation to its intended role, an apparently very bizarre thought in your world. 

 

Good luck with 'generating positive discourse' though. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it some day.

 

Given that I selectively referenced assassinate's PEN, accuracy, and damage bonuses seperately throughout my posts, basic reading between the lines would tell you that I was being reductionist (my bad) rather than ignorant about an ability that I just told you I've tested through multiple builds (which obviously include multiple playstyles and roles). You can keep using it as an excuse to be relentlessly ascerbic, but I've made it pretty clear that the crux of my argument isn't just the specific bonuses but the limited opportunities to benefit from them and their relative weakness as a result.

 

As for "criticizing the class as a whole" rather than just melee builds, you can stop rewriting history right there – I explicitly used the word 'martial' at every opportunity to make clear the context of my argument. Again, it seems like you're more interested in cherry picking to criticize/demean than actually responding to the points being raised (actual efficacy of martial assassin builds vs other martial rogue builds, widely acknowledged problems with weapon style balancing re: full attacks, the frequency trade off between the assassin's bonus and malus, etc). You won't actually bother to look at a video that illustrates my point (he doesn't ''suggest" a great sword, he illustrates how constantly switching one in and out is basically the only way to make melee assassins compete) but you're more than happy to grab onto the one element of my description you can use to justify a blanket dismissal. You won't actually *try* a melee assassin to see how it plays vs other martial rogues, you've already made up your mind that if anybody has a negative experience with a subclass you happen to like then it must be on them rather than a possible shortcoming that could be improved. 

 

If you can't have a friendly conversation with someone you disagree with, then move on. There is zero need to be this confrontational over a disagreement about game mechanics.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Purudaya

[InsaneCommander]

Do you wipe out groups of enemies with a fireball, when attacking from stealth, before the battle starts?

 

I'm playing as a singleclass assassin, but I'll definitely have an assassin/evoker on my custom party when I have one.

 

Usually a bit after the battle starts, to give enemies a chance to clump up a bit more. Gives a chance to hit them with a Reflex debuff as well, which I'm liable to do anyway. Evoker Fireballs (and the like) already hit quite nicely by themselves of course, getting a lot of extra accuracy, PEN (high Fire AR not being too uncommon, after all), and an excellent chance to get some beefed up crits going definitely helps make a mark. And obviously you can Smoke Veil and hit them again whenever needed. Or start popping off some missiles, etc. I'm not too far in with this character yet, alternating a bit, but certainly having fun with it .

 

Interesting. I'll definitely include one in my party in a future pt.

[Loren Tyr]

Given that I selectively referenced assassinate's PEN, accuracy, and damage bonuses seperately throughout my posts, basic reading between the lines would tell you that I was being reductionist (my bad) rather than ignorant about an ability that I just told you I've tested through multiple builds (which obviously include multiple playstyles and roles). You can keep using it as an excuse to be relentlessly ascerbic, but I've made it pretty clear that the crux of my argument isn't just the specific bonuses but the limited opportunities to benefit from them and their relative weakness as a result.

 

As for "criticizing the class as a whole" rather than just melee builds, you can stop rewriting history right there – I explicitly used the word 'martial' at every opportunity to make clear the context of my argument. Again, it seems like you're more interested in cherry picking to criticize/demean than actually responding to the points being raised (actual efficacy of martial assassin builds vs other martial rogue builds, widely acknowledged problems with weapon style balancing re: full attacks, the frequency trade off between the assassin's bonus and malus, etc). You won't actually bother to look at a video that illustrates my point (he doesn't ''suggest" a great sword, he illustrates how constantly switching one in and out is basically the only way to make melee assassins compete) but you're more than happy to grab onto the one element of my description you can use to justify a blanket dismissal. You won't actually *try* a melee assassin to see how it plays vs other martial rogues, you've already made up your mind that if anybody has a negative experience with a subclass you happen to like then it must be on them rather than a possible shortcoming that could be improved. 

 

If you can't have a friendly conversation with someone you disagree with, then move on. There is zero need to be this confrontational over a disagreement about game mechanics.

 

I am perfectly capable of having friendly conversations with people I disagree with actually, I have them frequently. Not with you though. But sure, must be all my fault, being confrontational and ascerbic (apparently) and whatnot. From my perspective, it rather seems that you're getting a touch defensive about your somewhat one-sided approach to building a melee assassin being questioned; you seem awfully eager to criticise my tone and style of argument, rather than actually addressing them. But if you want to be dismissive, that's up to you. 

 

Just to set one more of your incorrect assumptions straight though: I definitely have tried melee Assassin builds, and so far my experience is that they are finnicky (but then, they're supposed to be), but can be both fun and effective. And in its current incarnation (admittedly, this could change in future iterations), not even using 1H style *or* Great Sword switching *or* a martial multi-class... a great sacrilege to you, I'm sure.

 

Anyway, feel free to get a last word in if you feel unable to take your own advice and move on just yet. You can feel safe in the knowledge that I shan't be reading it.