Keep the Ship Mechanic in Pillars 3 or Reuse the mechanics in a Pirate CRPG?

[Celan]

I think I've had my fill of ship combat with Deadfire, so none of the above.

[Tick]

If the setting would be appropriate for them, I'd love to have them back. But I wouldn't want to sacrifice exploring a cool new culture or space just for the ships.

[FlintlockJazz]

|__| = pirate game sales

|_________________________________| = fantasy rpg sales

 

There are plenty of games out there, they just don’t sell... for a reason. Furthermore, I don’t mind “pirate flavor,” but they should stop wasting dev resources on things that provide no value or synergy to the code library.

 

Pirate hats, swords, guns, even parrots add to the asset library. A mindless text game about shooting cannons is an asset that will find a short shelf life in any expansion or follow on game... unless they keep keep making pirate games, which will statistically be a bad financial decision.

Hang on, you said first that there were tons of pirate games. Now you are claiming they don't sell. Make up your mind dude, which is it? Load of pirate games (which implies they do sell) or they don't sell and therefore not many of them? Stick to one claim. Sid Meier's Pirates sold fantastically so pirate games do sell, and we don't have the information as to how the pirate theme affected sales, we just have your personal taste that you don't like pirates, that's it. Just say, "I'd prefer not to have pirates because I don't like them", just as I am saying that I like pirates and hope they keep them in, that's all the 'facts' we have at this point.

[gkathellar]

 

|__| = pirate game sales

|_________________________________| = fantasy rpg sales

 

There are plenty of games out there, they just don’t sell... for a reason. Furthermore, I don’t mind “pirate flavor,” but they should stop wasting dev resources on things that provide no value or synergy to the code library.

 

Pirate hats, swords, guns, even parrots add to the asset library. A mindless text game about shooting cannons is an asset that will find a short shelf life in any expansion or follow on game... unless they keep keep making pirate games, which will statistically be a bad financial decision.

Hang on, you said first that there were tons of pirate games. Now you are claiming they don't sell. Make up your mind dude, which is it? Load of pirate games (which implies they do sell) or they don't sell and therefore not many of them? Stick to one claim. Sid Meier's Pirates sold fantastically so pirate games do sell, and we don't have the information as to how the pirate theme affected sales, we just have your personal taste that you don't like pirates, that's it. Just say, "I'd prefer not to have pirates because I don't like them", just as I am saying that I like pirates and hope they keep them in, that's all the 'facts' we have at this point.

 

 

They're not necessarily contradictory claims, unless you genuinely believe that markets never get oversaturated (they do.) That's not to say Heldred is right - before believing such a claim, I'd want to see a breakdown of all Age of Sail-style games over the last decade with attached budget estimates, sales figures, price per unit, etc. But they're not necessarily contradictory claims.

 

What I'd be willing to believe is that the majority of games with a strong Age of Sail flavor are not big hits ... but then, most games aren't big hits. I'd also be willing to believe that more success stories in gaming are fantasy RPGs of one stripe or another ... but then, gaming has been dominated by fantasy RPGs from the word "go," so that wouldn't be shocking. These question also get complicated when you consider other factors. Sid Meier's Pirates sold well, but how much of that is just that it comes from a well-established, experienced studio that has managed to become popular in both hardcore and semi-casual circles and has a marketing budget the exceeding the GDP of Grenada.^{[citation needed]} What about games like Sunless Sea, which is in a lot of ways an Age of Sail game but also a weird gloompunk fantasy pastiche sharing a universe with a popular browser game? In general it's just really hard to make broad statements about genres because genres are so fluid in nature.

 

It's complicated, is what it is.

Edited July 10, 2018 by gkathellar

[Manveru123]

|__| = pirate game sales

|_________________________________| = fantasy rpg sales

 

There are plenty of games out there, they just don’t sell... for a reason. Furthermore, I don’t mind “pirate flavor,” but they should stop wasting dev resources on things that provide no value or synergy to the code library.

 

Pirate hats, swords, guns, even parrots add to the asset library. A mindless text game about shooting cannons is an asset that will find a short shelf life in any expansion or follow on game... unless they keep keep making pirate games, which will statistically be a bad financial decision.

Assassin's Creed 4: Black Flag sold more copies than Deadfire ever will.

[FlintlockJazz]

 

 

|__| = pirate game sales

|_________________________________| = fantasy rpg sales

 

There are plenty of games out there, they just don’t sell... for a reason. Furthermore, I don’t mind “pirate flavor,” but they should stop wasting dev resources on things that provide no value or synergy to the code library.

 

Pirate hats, swords, guns, even parrots add to the asset library. A mindless text game about shooting cannons is an asset that will find a short shelf life in any expansion or follow on game... unless they keep keep making pirate games, which will statistically be a bad financial decision.

Hang on, you said first that there were tons of pirate games. Now you are claiming they don't sell. Make up your mind dude, which is it? Load of pirate games (which implies they do sell) or they don't sell and therefore not many of them? Stick to one claim. Sid Meier's Pirates sold fantastically so pirate games do sell, and we don't have the information as to how the pirate theme affected sales, we just have your personal taste that you don't like pirates, that's it. Just say, "I'd prefer not to have pirates because I don't like them", just as I am saying that I like pirates and hope they keep them in, that's all the 'facts' we have at this point.

 

 

They're not necessarily contradictory claims, unless you genuinely believe that markets never get oversaturated (they do.) That's not to say Heldred is right - before believing such a claim, I'd want to see a breakdown of all Age of Sail-style games over the last decade with attached budget estimates, sales figures, price per unit, etc. But they're not necessarily contradictory claims.

 

What I'd be willing to believe is that the majority of games with a strong Age of Sail flavor are not big hits ... but then, most games aren't big hits. I'd also be willing to believe that more success stories in gaming are fantasy RPGs of one stripe or another ... but then, gaming has been dominated by fantasy RPGs from the word "go," so that wouldn't be shocking. These question also get complicated when you consider other factors. Sid Meier's Pirates sold well, but how much of that is just that it comes from a well-established, experienced studio that has managed to become popular in both hardcore and semi-casual circles and has a marketing budget the exceeding the GDP of Grenada.^{[citation needed]} What about games like Sunless Sea, which is in a lot of ways an Age of Sail game but also a weird gloompunk fantasy pastiche sharing a universe with a popular browser game? In general it's just really hard to make broad statements about genres because genres are so fluid in nature.

 

It's complicated, is what it is.

 

 

Yep I agree completely. The issue I had was that he seemed to claim people were making pirate games then went the other way and said that no one should make them because they are not profitable. I'd support the guy if he just said he doesn't like the pirate stuff in it, and even back him up if he had made a complaint like the poll didn't give an option for those who want neither for instance. 

 

I do think your point about most games are not big hits and that fantasy succeeds so well because there are so many being made. When an Age of Sail game fails it stands out more because there is less competition, when a Fantasy game fails it barely gets noticed and since there are so many of them at least some of them are going to succeed. I personally like to think there is a market for pirate games it's just that they still have to be good games (I do think Deadfire is a good game, I'm enjoying it anyhow).

 

 

 

|__| = pirate game sales

|_________________________________| = fantasy rpg sales

 

There are plenty of games out there, they just don’t sell... for a reason. Furthermore, I don’t mind “pirate flavor,” but they should stop wasting dev resources on things that provide no value or synergy to the code library.

 

Pirate hats, swords, guns, even parrots add to the asset library. A mindless text game about shooting cannons is an asset that will find a short shelf life in any expansion or follow on game... unless they keep keep making pirate games, which will statistically be a bad financial decision.

Assassin's Creed 4: Black Flag sold more copies than Deadfire ever will.

 

Ah yes Black Flag!

 

I so wanted to like Black Flag, but the assassin stuff ruined it for me. I'm sure there are others who felt the opposite, that the piracy ruined a good assassin game (I'll have to go by others opinions on that since I am not a fan of Assassin's Creed games in general) but it does show that games with pirate influences can succeed.

[Bill Gates' Son]

|__| = pirate game sales

|_________________________________| = fantasy rpg sales

 

There are plenty of games out there, they just don’t sell... for a reason. Furthermore, I don’t mind “pirate flavor,” but they should stop wasting dev resources on things that provide no value or synergy to the code library.

 

Pirate hats, swords, guns, even parrots add to the asset library. A mindless text game about shooting cannons is an asset that will find a short shelf life in any expansion or follow on game... unless they keep keep making pirate games, which will statistically be a bad financial decision.

 

By your terrible logic, games like Black Flag and Sea of Thieves would have sold badly.

[misterjimmy]

 

Remove mini-management systems and sea combat, except camping system,It's feel like obsidian just waste a money to make trash. They should focus to make POE3 like classic crpg.

 

The problem is they've already set the precedent with Deadfire of tearing down mechanics/progression from the previous installment. I would expect combat and management systems to get overhauled (again) going into POE3.

 

I wish they can just improve system, not the overhauled. then,Obsidian can more focus to write good storyline and companion.

[Fardragon]

I don't like either of those options. Ships and piracy are fine in Deadfire, but they have been done now. If Obsidian do a non-pillars RPG, I would want it to be science fiction. So It could have space ships and space pirates as elements. Otherwise, NO.

 

Pirates of the Sword Coast has just been re-released for NWNEE, to the sound of one hand clapping...

Edited July 11, 2018 by Fardragon

[Farsha]

Ship combat mechanic is not that great.
They should not use it in POE3 (if it ever happens)
And if they want to use it in different game, they need to seriously overhaul it and expand it. Text based combat is just not good enough in 2018.

[the_dog_days]

And if they want to use it in different game, they need to seriously overhaul it and expand it. Text based combat is just not good enough in 2018.

 

Text based combat is fine (and the current year is irrelevant to the topic), but the mechanics are poorly implemented.

[gkathellar]

Text based combat is just not good enough in 2018.

 

Why not?

[omgFIREBALLS]

Hey. The forum is text based combat, if yet with opinions rather than weapons.

[heldred]

To clarify...

 

1) Go to wikipedia and look at the dozens of pirate games available over the years, including two big-budget projects coming to market shortly (so yes, plenty of pirate games)

 

2) If you were to look at the total sales for "all" pirate-themed games and compare it to "all" fantasy-themed games, the generic fantasy games outsell the pirate-themed games.  If we wanted to make it a fairer comparison, you could take the top 5 best selling Pirate games versus the best selling Fantasy games.  Problem is, there aren't any great selling pirate games... ever...

 

For PC, the all-time fantasy game winners are:

WoW: 14M+ copies

Diablo3: 12M+ copies

Guild Wars: 6M+ copies

Guild Wars 2: 5M+ copies

Diablo2: 4M+ copies

Diablo: 2M+ copies

Witcher 2: 2M+ copies

Witcher: 2M+ copies

Baldurs Gate 2: 2M+ copies

Baldurs Gate: 2M+ copies

Neverwinter 2M+ copies

Dungeon Siege: 1M+ copies

Sacred: 1M+ copies

Witcher 3: 1M+ copies

Divinity Original Sin: 1M+ copies

Divinity Original Sin 2: 1M+ copies

Sword and Fairy: 1M+ copies

Dungeon Lords: 1M+ copies

 

For XboxOne/360/Xbox:

Skyrim: 13M+ copies

Fable 2: 3.M+

Fable: 3M+

Elder Scrolls 3: 1M+

 

 

For the record, I couldn't find one Pirate-themed game in the top 50 best selling games of all times.

So yeah, statistically, it is a bad financial decision to go with a pirate themed game.  

Edited July 11, 2018 by heldred