Armor penetration is a pain in the ass. Stacking armor is OP.

[Phenomenum]

Guys, i think i found the solution to compensate overall damage output - proper Crits. Here are my calculations:

 

In vanilla Crit adds 1.5 PEN multiplier & +25% of base damage. When you score a Crit or being Critically Hit it lead to OverPEN in most cases, so total damage dealt is 30% (from OverPEN) + 25% (from Crit bonus) = 55%. So i just changed Crit bonus to 0.5 (like in PoE 1). I've run several encounters already and so far it work perfect - Crits leads to FullPEN in most cases and Attacker deals 100% dmg + bonus 50% dmg, which less than vanilla only by 5% (neglitable). So overall damage output still the very same and Crits hurts bad

 

Also a nice side effect of increased Crits is that firearms Crits not so stupidly unuseful. They all have -0.3 multiplier and in vanilla, due to double inversion, Crit with firearms could deal less damage than Hit. With 0.5 Crit multiplier firearms still produce less bonys Crit damage, but not lesser than Hit.

 

I'll keep testing for a while to be certain that my decision have no downsides and overlooks. But so far, i'm very satisfied.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Phenomenum

[protopersona]

Guys, i think i found the solution to compensate overall damage output - proper Crits. Here are my calculations:

 

In vanilla Crit adds 1.5 PEN multiplier & +25% of base damage. When you score a Crit or being Critically Hit it lead to OverPEN in most cases, so total damage dealt is 30% (from OverPEN) + 25% (from Crit bonus) = 55%. So i just changed Crit bonus to 0.5 (like in PoE 1). I've run several encounters already and so far it work perfect - Crits leads to FullPEN in most cases and Attacker deals a bonus 50% dmg, which less than vanilla only by 5% (neglitable). So overall damage output still the very same and Crits hurts bad

 

Also a nice side effect of increased Crits is that firearms Crits not so stupidly unuseful. They all have -0.3 multiplier and in vanilla, due to double inversion, Crit with firearms could deal less damage than Hit. With 0.5 Crit multiplier firearms still produce less bonys Crit damage, but not lesser than Hit.

 

I'll keep testing for a while to be certain that my decision have no downsides and overlooks. But so far, i'm very satisfied.

This mod really deserves it's own thread at this point, probably in the modding forum. I like the better crits idea too.

[Phenomenum]

Seems mod end up as "Combat rebalance"

Some time ago i also a bit tweaked tier 2 and 3 Afflictions and Inspirations to be little more stronger (becose effects a very subtle compared to PoE 1). Already played a lot with this tweaks and i like it so far.

[hilfazer]

PotD definitely needed the upscaling in difficulty but they changed lots of things at once, and one of the things they changed was increasing enemy AR dramatically across the board.

Net result, you now had to engineer every possible Penetration buff in a stack just to scratch anything, you'd often still underpenetrate or graze even after stacking every possible armor debuff, and the practical result was that the optimal approach was to bypass the AR/Pen system entirely via things like the combusting wounds / mind blades combo that just stack huge amounts of tiny damage dot's until it doesn't matter whether you're penetrating or not.

Players complained armor in PoE1 isn't doing enough. Now, in PoE2, it does. Is it also bad?

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

PotD definitely needed the upscaling in difficulty but they changed lots of things at once, and one of the things they changed was increasing enemy AR dramatically across the board.

Net result, you now had to engineer every possible Penetration buff in a stack just to scratch anything, you'd often still underpenetrate or graze even after stacking every possible armor debuff, and the practical result was that the optimal approach was to bypass the AR/Pen system entirely via things like the combusting wounds / mind blades combo that just stack huge amounts of tiny damage dot's until it doesn't matter whether you're penetrating or not.

Players complained armor in PoE1 isn't doing enough. Now, in PoE2, it does. Is it also bad?

 

 

 

Oh, I like the armor / pen system overall, I don't think it's inherently broken and in some ways it's definitely superior to the DR system. It just needs further balancing on PotD difficulty; too many enemies have AR so high that they break the system and there's no way to get AR down into penetrable ranges.  So you end up monotonously plinking away forever and it gets boring.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Phenomenum]

"Now, in PoE2, it does" - No, it doesn't. Especially on POtD, when all armor exept Heavy provides zero defence against most attacks.

 

AR system isn't bad, but have very limited scaling capabilities. Vanilla PEN vs.AR works fine ONLY with certain values difference for weapons/spells and armor, creating balanced set of benefits and penalties for both Attacker and Defender. But when this values shifted, even by 1 or 2 points, then all system ruins like a card-castle.

 

For example: PEN 8 vs AR 10 leads to UnderPEN penalty -50% dmg for Attacker, which can be compensated by using +2 PEN Modal ability or debuff enemy AR by -2; but PEN 8 vs AR 12 leaves Attacker no options exept keep spamming unefficient -50% dmg attacks. And vise versa - when Attacker PEN too high compared Defender's AR, then Defender's armor doesn't work at all: for example PEN 15 vs AR 8 - there is no +8 AR buff in game, and even if you manage to rise your AR to 15 it changes... NOTHING. And if you are on Attacker's place, you will gain no benefits when your PEN exeeds enemy AR less than two times - if enemy AR 8, you will deal the same amount of dmg with PEN 8 and PEN 15.9. WTF? You have spent tons of money to enchant your weapons or talent points to improve your spells, crafting potions, and you gain nothing only becose your PEN is less than enemy's AR by 0.5 points. Screw that, i say.

 

That's why i created this mod - at least to smooth those inconsistences.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Phenomenum

[DozingDragon]

 

 

PotD definitely needed the upscaling in difficulty but they changed lots of things at once, and one of the things they changed was increasing enemy AR dramatically across the board.

Net result, you now had to engineer every possible Penetration buff in a stack just to scratch anything, you'd often still underpenetrate or graze even after stacking every possible armor debuff, and the practical result was that the optimal approach was to bypass the AR/Pen system entirely via things like the combusting wounds / mind blades combo that just stack huge amounts of tiny damage dot's until it doesn't matter whether you're penetrating or not.

Players complained armor in PoE1 isn't doing enough. Now, in PoE2, it does. Is it also bad?

 

 

 

Oh, I like the armor / pen system overall, I don't think it's inherently broken and in some ways it's definitely superior to the DR system. It just needs further balancing on PotD difficulty; too many enemies have AR so high that they break the system and there's no way to get AR down into penetrable ranges.  So you end up monotonously plinking away forever and it gets boring.

 

 

Which enemies do you consider to have AR that is too high on PotD?  

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

 

Which enemies do you consider to have AR that is too high on PotD?  

 

 

 

It's been a while since I did a full PotD run -- I keep restarting --  but the steel / iron golems for one, then a number of things in the Beast of Winter expansion.

 

One frequent offender are pierce or crush immune enemies who also have high AR to the other physical damage types Most of the "high penetration' weapons like Arquebus or Stiletto etc are Piercing damage type,  so those enemies effectively have amplified AR because you can't use the "designed to penetrate high AR" weapons against them, you have to use lower-penetration stuff.

 

So then you stack Hel-Hyraf's, Expose Vulnerabilities, and the Mace modal; even if they all land, that only shaves off 5 AR or so (and only for the portion of the fight where the debuffs are active; EV has a limited duration). Look at something like a Steelclad Construct that has 15 (17 slash/pierce) DR -- shave five off, it's still at 10 AR, which means you're underpenetrating with anything short of an Estoc or Arquebus (except also not with an Estoc or Arquebus due to the higher Piercing resistance).

 

If you get unlucky and your EV fails to land or your Hel-Hyraf's expires or god forbid you forgot to have both of those exact specific abilities in your party at all times, the fights get excruciatingly long and monotonous. I have pretty thorough scripting set up so after a certain point I know a fight is won, I can basically go AFK, the cipher will keep casting Brilliant and keep things going, but it can still take forever to just whittle whittle whittle whittle whittle away at a high armor enemy.

 

And that's not even a particularly late-game enemy -- you can fight Steelclad Constructs as a bounty in Neketaka by about level 12 or so (so you aren't going to have late game enchants on your gear). 

 

Other problem enemies (just skimming the wiki for armor values) are Greater Blights of varying kinds, the Engwithan Titan (though at least it's relatively weak to Crush and Shock), Soul Collectors -- basically anything that has armor values over about 13 or so. At that point they're going off the top end of the scale and they either require very specific and limiting party setups OR they become tedious or both. 

 

It might be enough to just have PotD give +1 AR across the board instead of +2, or just leave it unchanged from the Veteran values. Part of the issue is that AR is a much less granular scale than anything else that changes between difficulty levels -- +15 deflection is like a 10%-15% boost, but +2 AR is closer to a 20% boost (especially if you're counting from debuffed values) -- and there are far fewer tools to shift it around. Every spellcasting class, just about, has accuracy buffs or Deflection debuffs, etc., often ones that stack, but there's a far shorter list of AR debuffs.

 

EDIT: it's especially a problem with spell pen

Edited February 1, 2019 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[DozingDragon]

Well, most parties can usually apply the Flanked effect (-10 Deflection, -1 Armor) with relatively little issue, either through Flanking or applying any Perception affliction, even during the early game.  And Hot Razor Skewers (+2 Pen) are available to purchase in Neketaka as soon as the player arrives, which can push the high Pen weapons back into viability against high armor targets if need be.  Then there are weapons and abilities that deal Raw damage in some form, consumables that lower Armor, and the general availability of other debuffs that make it more likely to Crit against a high Armor target to get bonus Pen.  

 

The only thing that I think is odd is how none of the Body Afflictions lower enemy armor.  And for that matter, why does "Stunned" debuff the target's Pen, if Stunned also makes it so the target cannot act?  

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Yeah, there's Flanked. Perhaps i should start just always using the razor skewers but that seems exceptionally metagamey (and they're fairly expensive and don't help with spell pen).

 

I agree that adding an armor debuff to the Constitution afflictions would be one good way to address the issue.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Phenomenum]

Updated mu journal. Check out Mod's thread: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/108250-penetration-mod/?do=findComment&comment=2136173

 

Tried several times to walk through Gorecci street on POtD with 2.2 version - same hard **** as ever, but more logical and fun (+50% Crit damage is beautiful in both ways). So the game difficulty seems still the same, which is good.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Phenomenum

[baldurs_gate_2]

btw: How high can you get the Pen for Minoletta's Missile Salvo?

[DozingDragon]

You can get to 16 Pen without too many gimmicks.  You start with 10 Pen (Base 6+4 Ability Level), add 2 Pen with Crusted Swordfish, another 2 Pen with Tenacious (Champion's Boon), 1 Pen from the PL 9 Chanter phrase, and 1 Pen from PL scaling (PL 13 from Prestige, Potion of Ascension, and Firethrower's Gloves).  I can't think of a way to boost Pen via PL any further, as even throwing in the Evoker bonus and the Nature Godlike bonus will only get you another 3 PL when you need a total of 4 PL to get one point of Pen, however, I am sure someone around here will come up with something.  

[Marigoldran]

Driving Echoes from a Cipher provides +8 pen.  

[Kilburn]

Didn't know that. So is deflection worthless then if you just try to stack as much armour instead? Are maces better than sabers?