Difficulty after 1.1 - Game is still too easy

[AeonsLegend]

 

On Veteran mode and I'm picking fights 5 levels above me now. Feels about right. Some are still too easy.

 

They should just give the players a +x levels slider for PotD.

 

I feel this matters more at the start of the game when there's less stats on your characters. Late game when everyone has 100+ accuracy it doesn't matter if an enemy has 80 or 100 deflection anymore.

[thelee]

 

 

On Veteran mode and I'm picking fights 5 levels above me now. Feels about right. Some are still too easy.

 

They should just give the players a +x levels slider for PotD.

 

I feel this matters more at the start of the game when there's less stats on your characters. Late game when everyone has 100+ accuracy it doesn't matter if an enemy has 80 or 100 deflection anymore.

 

 

This has been brought up before in this thread, but mathematically it doesn't matter.

 

The only thing that matters for rolls is the difference between your accuracy and deflection - the absolute values don't matter, just the difference. Each level everyone gains 3 acc/defense, so as long as enemies scale with you, everyone just stays at mathematically equivalent relative stats.

 

But anyway, all this is a sideshow because the reason why it doesn't feel like it matters if an enemy has 80 or 100 deflection in the end-game is because most encounters aren't tuned for very high level fights. Like I said before, even if a xaurip scaled upwards indefinitely to level 20, it would still be a xaurip with lame abilities. It would not be hitting you with meteor shower or protecting itself with minoletta's sigil or cloak of death.

 

As I said before, I continually maintain that the base difficulty in 1.1 is fine, there's just a huge dearth of encounters/quests that target level 14-20; the game is definitely weighted to levels 1-13 heavily. I mean, it makes sense, because I imagine most players will stick to the critical path and a minimal subset of the other quests; and it shows because I think we can all agree that PotD feels decent for that level range (especially on the low end at port maje and shortly after). but for us who want a hard PotD for level 14-20, there's like... some bounties, bekarna's quest, nemnok, and shimmering island and that's pretty much it before ukaizo and half of what i just named you're already over-leveled by like level 15 even if you use scaling. i'm really hoping the DLC can help out here, which it did back in poe1. i just want dedicated islands and quests that are tuned for level 14-23 (yes, 3 levels higher than the player, and i want that to mean enemies with PL10 abilities unavailable to the player even) in the same way that the base deadfire game is tuned for level 1-13.

Edited June 19, 2018 by thelee

[AeonsLegend]

 

 

 

On Veteran mode and I'm picking fights 5 levels above me now. Feels about right. Some are still too easy.

 

They should just give the players a +x levels slider for PotD.

 

I feel this matters more at the start of the game when there's less stats on your characters. Late game when everyone has 100+ accuracy it doesn't matter if an enemy has 80 or 100 deflection anymore.

 

 

This has been brought up before in this thread, but mathematically it doesn't matter.

 

The only thing that matters for rolls is the difference between your accuracy and deflection - the absolute values don't matter, just the difference. Each level everyone gains 3 acc/defense, so as long as enemies scale with you, everyone just stays at mathematically equivalent relative stats.

 

But anyway, all this is a sideshow because the reason why it doesn't feel like it matters if an enemy has 80 or 100 deflection in the end-game is because most encounters aren't tuned for very high level fights. Like I said before, even if a xaurip scaled upwards indefinitely to level 20, it would still be a xaurip with lame abilities. It would not be hitting you with meteor shower or protecting itself with minoletta's sigil or cloak of death.

 

As I said before, I continually maintain that the base difficulty in 1.1 is fine, there's just a huge dearth of encounters/quests that target level 14-20; the game is definitely weighted to levels 1-13 heavily. I mean, it makes sense, because I imagine most players will stick to the critical path and a minimal subset of the other quests; and it shows because I think we can all agree that PotD feels decent for that level range (especially on the low end at port maje and shortly after). but for us who want a hard PotD for level 14-20, there's like... some bounties, bekarna's quest, nemnok, and shimmering island and that's pretty much it before ukaizo and half of what i just named you're already over-leveled by like level 15 even if you use scaling. i'm really hoping the DLC can help out here, which it did back in poe1. i just want dedicated islands and quests that are tuned for level 14-23 (yes, 3 levels higher than the player, and i want that to mean enemies with PL10 abilities unavailable to the player even) in the same way that the base deadfire game is tuned for level 1-13.

 

I don't know man I one shot enemies 3 levels higher than me.

[Zoso der Goldene]

 

 

 

On Veteran mode and I'm picking fights 5 levels above me now. Feels about right. Some are still too easy.

 

They should just give the players a +x levels slider for PotD.

 

I feel this matters more at the start of the game when there's less stats on your characters. Late game when everyone has 100+ accuracy it doesn't matter if an enemy has 80 or 100 deflection anymore.

 

 

This has been brought up before in this thread, but mathematically it doesn't matter.

 

The only thing that matters for rolls is the difference between your accuracy and deflection - the absolute values don't matter, just the difference. Each level everyone gains 3 acc/defense, so as long as enemies scale with you, everyone just stays at mathematically equivalent relative stats.

 

But anyway, all this is a sideshow because the reason why it doesn't feel like it matters if an enemy has 80 or 100 deflection in the end-game is because most encounters aren't tuned for very high level fights. Like I said before, even if a xaurip scaled upwards indefinitely to level 20, it would still be a xaurip with lame abilities. It would not be hitting you with meteor shower or protecting itself with minoletta's sigil or cloak of death.

 

As I said before, I continually maintain that the base difficulty in 1.1 is fine, there's just a huge dearth of encounters/quests that target level 14-20; the game is definitely weighted to levels 1-13 heavily. I mean, it makes sense, because I imagine most players will stick to the critical path and a minimal subset of the other quests; and it shows because I think we can all agree that PotD feels decent for that level range (especially on the low end at port maje and shortly after). but for us who want a hard PotD for level 14-20, there's like... some bounties, bekarna's quest, nemnok, and shimmering island and that's pretty much it before ukaizo and half of what i just named you're already over-leveled by like level 15 even if you use scaling. i'm really hoping the DLC can help out here, which it did back in poe1. i just want dedicated islands and quests that are tuned for level 14-23 (yes, 3 levels higher than the player, and i want that to mean enemies with PL10 abilities unavailable to the player even) in the same way that the base deadfire game is tuned for level 1-13.

 

One fact does seem to support the claim that most players finish the critical path and some small subset of quests:

For PoE, only ~11% ever finished the game, for Deadfire, it's more than 20%.

[Zelse]

I just autoattacked the last boss to death, only using an aoe heal for support on POTD and i wasnt even using custom characters,consumables or food other than rice throughout the entire run.

 

Everything past the early midgame definitely still needs work. All fights with the red bonus enemies were great. Everything past those without the added challenge was unfortunately still disappointing.

 

~.~

 

started the run after 1.1 released..

Edited June 20, 2018 by Zelse

[Shadenuat]

Monsters simply are not designed to be a challenge after second half of the game. Even playing with Deadly Deadfire xp cut, which makes it feel more like complete game (for example, I reached vampire island on level 17, and generally struggled to go above level 15 without doing latest game content) because you reach parts of the game on level which seems like is supposed to fit, even some of monster stats make little sense (i.e. Fire Giant's incredibly low deflection which makes them explode from your melees).

 

OTOH I fought magma dragon on relatively normal level for it (~15), and without consumables never landed a single spell on it. Couldn't land any spells throughout whole combat because any debuff I had would simply bounce off it. Literally killed it by auto-attacking lol. It's just infuriating how much PoE system relies on defence for challenge instead of offense, exotic abilities, positioning, dungeon/traps design, resources or AI.

 

There is that thread about what if Deadfire had Underdark, and I gotta agree, a big, hidden chunk of content opening after particular level/event would really do good for this game, especially if it would be high level adventure, with monsters from levels 17 to 20+.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Shadenuat

[Shake Appeal]

I would love Obsidian to drop some telemetry data about how many players attempt Veteran/POTD, let alone complete those settings even one time. The overwhelming majority of users never finish one run of the game, let alone return to it time and again. I would guess the hardcore POTD playerbase (into which I include myself), is likely a single-digit percentage of the player population. Maybe one in twenty users is even giving things like "level scaling" any thought.

 

You are fooling yourself if you think Deadfire's possibly sluggish sales are related to the game being "too easy." I would wager most users find the default difficulty too hard and confusing.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Shake Appeal

[Shadenuat]

Who are you talking with? It's not a thread about sales.

[Shake Appeal]

Who are you talking with? It's not a thread about sales.

Gregorovitch, when he said:

 

The PoE1 resting and casting system offered a layer of gameply providing an element of mystery, challenge and difficulty to make that happen whereas Deafire doesn't. This is what people want. They are not interested in spending their valuable time playing games that offer no serious challenge and no satisfaction from mastering them. Not this type of game anyway.

 

This is why (well, one of the reasons) they are not buying Deadfire. Bascially nobody is whining on the forums about how hard the game is or how they don't understand this or that. That is telling peopole that dispite the good reviews and resonable Steam review score, something is wrong.

But there's also a broader point to be made about who the game is designed for, and how important high-level difficulty balancing is. It's more important for a traditional CRPG with a niche but fervent fanbase, but if Obsidian want to make ends meet, the bulk of their time is not going to be spent, at least pre-release, on tweaking numbers for optional side content on a difficulty setting that a tiny proportion of users ever try.

[thelee]

 

Who are you talking with? It's not a thread about sales.

Gregorovitch, when he said:

 

The PoE1 resting and casting system offered a layer of gameply providing an element of mystery, challenge and difficulty to make that happen whereas Deafire doesn't. This is what people want. They are not interested in spending their valuable time playing games that offer no serious challenge and no satisfaction from mastering them. Not this type of game anyway.

 

This is why (well, one of the reasons) they are not buying Deadfire. Bascially nobody is whining on the forums about how hard the game is or how they don't understand this or that. That is telling peopole that dispite the good reviews and resonable Steam review score, something is wrong.

But there's also a broader point to be made about who the game is designed for, and how important high-level difficulty balancing is. It's more important for a traditional CRPG with a niche but fervent fanbase, but if Obsidian want to make ends meet, the bulk of their time is not going to be spent, at least pre-release, on tweaking numbers for optional side content on a difficulty setting that a tiny proportion of users ever try.

 

 

I made this point earlier, and I'm going to make it again, because it's an absolutely critical question: what do people mean by "hard"?

 

I think people are just saying "hard enough for me" which is not a good enough definition. What if only 1% of players could beat the game on PotD? .1%? .01%?

 

My point about encounters just not being designed for level 14-20 isn't just my opinion, if you go look at the native levels for the quests, they are significantly front-loaded to mid-low levels. Obsidian went through the game with a power gamer on their staff and retuned accordingly, and barring an objective metric, I think this is "good enough" (and i await magran's challenges for further difficulty tweaking). The problem, again, is that they retuned all the quests/encounters that they currently have, which is heavily weighted to lower/mid levels, and there's hardly anything for higher levels. Scanning through this list, there are only two level 18 quests: Nemnok and Lost Grimoires, and those run concurrently (so you can't really count them separately). There's nothing higher. Paradise of the Mind isn't on this list, but I suspect it's level 17, 18 at the most. Considering that being at party level (quest_level - 1) is probably the right spot for a challenge at higher levels (due to super linear power creep thanks to getting more unique gear and better abilities), that means for levels 18, 19, and 20 there's literally nothing in the game that you can use your sweet high-level gear/abilities on in a worthy fashion.

 

So basically, give me some DLC with a lot more high-level encounters, tuned in the same way that they tuned 1.1 PotD. I think that would suffice. People still complaining at that point will probably never be happy unless they're playing an original rogue-like.

Edited June 20, 2018 by thelee

[Shadenuat]

traditional CRPG with a niche but fervent fanbase

That's what PoE is. Everyone else plays Fallout 4.

 

You another of those fatalistic people or a samaritan with big wallet supporting Obsidian because you care for their children or smh?

 

What's up with this asinine self righteous flagellation "yes of course they can ignore what I like because someone needs a new boat".

 

This is worse than casuals who just want their romances and game feeding it's content by chewing it and putting in their mouth. At least they are stubborn enough to ask what they want all the time.

 

What if only 1% of players could beat the game on PotD?

What if only 20% of people beats the game at all, does that mean 80% of the game can be cut content and empty locations like Ukaizo is?

 

The smallest part of players who beats your games and gives you criticism & support are those who will buy your next game, and every other one after it.

 

Thacobells got their romances and hiding helmets, I want my high level content, XP balance, difficulty and monsters kicking my teeth out. And I don't care if they need a new boat instead.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Shadenuat

[araj123]

 

 

Who are you talking with? It's not a thread about sales.

Gregorovitch, when he said:

 

The PoE1 resting and casting system offered a layer of gameply providing an element of mystery, challenge and difficulty to make that happen whereas Deafire doesn't. This is what people want. They are not interested in spending their valuable time playing games that offer no serious challenge and no satisfaction from mastering them. Not this type of game anyway.

 

This is why (well, one of the reasons) they are not buying Deadfire. Bascially nobody is whining on the forums about how hard the game is or how they don't understand this or that. That is telling peopole that dispite the good reviews and resonable Steam review score, something is wrong.

But there's also a broader point to be made about who the game is designed for, and how important high-level difficulty balancing is. It's more important for a traditional CRPG with a niche but fervent fanbase, but if Obsidian want to make ends meet, the bulk of their time is not going to be spent, at least pre-release, on tweaking numbers for optional side content on a difficulty setting that a tiny proportion of users ever try.

 

 

I made this point earlier, and I'm going to make it again, because it's an absolutely critical question: what do people mean by "hard"?

 

I think people are just saying "hard enough for me" which is not a good enough definition. What if only 1% of players could beat the game on PotD? .1%? .01%?

 

My point about encounters just not being designed for level 14-20 isn't just my opinion, if you go look at the native levels for the quests, they are significantly front-loaded to mid-low levels. Obsidian went through the game with a power gamer on their staff and retuned accordingly, and barring an objective metric, I think this is "good enough" (and i await magran's challenges for further difficulty tweaking). The problem, again, is that they retuned all the quests/encounters that they currently have, which is heavily weighted to lower/mid levels, and there's hardly anything for higher levels. Scanning through this list, there are only two level 18 quests: Nemnok and Lost Grimoires, and those run concurrently (so you can't really count them separately). There's nothing higher. Paradise of the Mind isn't on this list, but I suspect it's level 17, 18 at the most. Considering that being at party level (quest_level - 1) is probably the right spot for a challenge at higher levels (due to super linear power creep thanks to getting more unique gear and better abilities), that means for levels 18, 19, and 20 there's literally nothing in the game that you can use your sweet high-level gear/abilities on in a worthy fashion.

 

So basically, give me some DLC with a lot more high-level encounters, tuned in the same way that they tuned 1.1 PotD. I think that would suffice. People still complaining at that point will probably never be happy unless they're playing an original rogue-like.

 

 

There is an interview with adam? that happened just last week or smth where he says that the first dlc will offer more high level content so theres some hope there.

 

I find it crazy that the highest quest in the game is level 18 though haha

[thelee]

 

What if only 1% of players could beat the game on PotD?

What if only 20% of people beats the game at all, does that mean 80% of the game can be cut content and empty locations like Ukaizo is?

 

The smallest part of players who beats your games and gives you criticism & support are those who will buy your next game, and every other one after it.

 

 

That's missing the point. I think we can all agree that PotD that is beatable by 100% of the player base is too easy. The more you crank up the difficulty, the lower the clearance (heck, even attempt) rate. But what is an "appropriate" difficult level? A 0% clearance (i.e. literally impossible) is clearly too hard, so somewhere in between. But for all the talk about empirics and "real world evidence" that people like cokane are going on about, there's no actual empirically-derived and measurable/objective threshold people are putting forth, other than essentially "difficult enough for me" which is not anything objective and purely anecdotal; "difficult enough for me" is so wishy-washy that only like 100 people in the world could beat it, and half of those 100 people would be still be going on about how there's no challenge.

Edited June 20, 2018 by thelee

[Gregorovitch]

 

 

Who are you talking with? It's not a thread about sales.

Gregorovitch, when he said:

 

The PoE1 resting and casting system offered a layer of gameply providing an element of mystery, challenge and difficulty to make that happen whereas Deafire doesn't. This is what people want. They are not interested in spending their valuable time playing games that offer no serious challenge and no satisfaction from mastering them. Not this type of game anyway.

 

This is why (well, one of the reasons) they are not buying Deadfire. Bascially nobody is whining on the forums about how hard the game is or how they don't understand this or that. That is telling peopole that dispite the good reviews and resonable Steam review score, something is wrong.

But there's also a broader point to be made about who the game is designed for, and how important high-level difficulty balancing is. It's more important for a traditional CRPG with a niche but fervent fanbase, but if Obsidian want to make ends meet, the bulk of their time is not going to be spent, at least pre-release, on tweaking numbers for optional side content on a difficulty setting that a tiny proportion of users ever try.

 

 

I made this point earlier, and I'm going to make it again, because it's an absolutely critical question: what do people mean by "hard"?

 

 

 

I agree that is both a critical question and a very interesting question. I think "hard" might be trhe wrong word. I think the right word to describe what people are after is "terrifying" which is not the same thing.

 

Looking at DOS2 as an example, I think we can say it is genuinely terrifying for all but the hardest of hardcore players on classic and particularly Tactician difficulty. It certainly terrified me. The first part of Fort Joy has five major fights that are no laughing matter: the turles, the crocs, Milo, the frogs and the Kitchen fight (six if you include the arena but many do that a bit later). All these fights are lethal but in very different ways and need very differnt approaches to come out of in one piece. All of these are level 3 except turtles which are level 2. You then get several "ins" to the main keep, but each one is blocked in one way or another by various enemies: level 4 plus they are. After the mauling you almost certainly got from the crocs and the frogs these mobs are simply terrifying - new area, level 4, OMG!

 

Later on, take Wrecker's Cave for example. You get kidnapped and imprisoned, have to fight your way out. Fighting your way out is again no laughing matter, no laughing matter at all, and it is by no means a given that you will be able to do so at all. After that experience you don't look at poking your nose into cave entrances etc in quite the same way again. Later still there are "trophy" fights you'll run into such as the witch Alice for example. She is almost certainly going to party wipe you in short order at first attempt. Or the scarecrows - OMG the bloody scarecrows, don't remind me.............

 

You see where I'm going with this. If a bloody scarecrow is capable of party wiping you at the drop of a hat WTF is NOT capable of party wiping you in this game? This is what I mean by terrifying. You never feel safe. Ever. Even from an innocent looking scarecrow.

 

The success of DOS2 (and DOS1 and PoE1) suggests IMO that this is what people are actually looking for, or at the very least it's what they are basing their game purchasing decisions on. And the problem is Deadfire just doesn't deliver on that. It never feels even dangerous never mind terrifying. Only twice during my game did I get that feeling, once in the flooded district of Port Maje against the looters and once when I got stuck down in the Old City, Neketaka after missing the lift and having to fight and sneak my way out at level 6 on PotD.

 

My opinion on why DOS2 pulls the terror thing off so well but Deadfire doesn't is that even though DOS2 is cooldown based, no resting etc:

 

1. The incredibly steep level power curves in the game mean that stuff can be very, very dangerous just one level up from you and on equal levels it will will make short work of you if you are not very, very careful. Slightly higher level equipment in the hands of the enemy can spell your doom with huge damage output hikes and armour ratings arising from it.

 

2. Many, in fact most, encounters are designed such that knights in shining armour need not apply really. No "Damn your eyes, Sir, En Garde!". You have to play like a dirty rotten scoundrel. You need to pull every darstedly trick in the book and then some to survive it, on Tactician anyway. The game positively encourages such skullduggery offering many opportunities for it esepcially on the harder encounters. It enabled Larian to make a lot of encounters all but impossibly difficult on paper on the assumption the player would not be fighting fair.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Gregorovitch

[Shadenuat]

But what is an "appropriate" difficult level? A 0% clearance (i.e. literally impossible) is clearly too hard, so somewhere in between.

It's not about clearance.

 

It's about veteran rpg players using most of their (full) party and resources available to them. If you're drinking healing potions then the fight is difficult.

 

This difficulty already exists, and it is called levels 1-8. The whole thread is about what happens with difficulty after levels 1-8(10/12 depending on your game).

 

Unmodded game for now has such XP curve and XP rewards, that you overlevel MOST of the content after 20 hours or so. It's not about theorycrafting here; you simply overlevel monsters hard very quickly.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Shadenuat

[cokane]

 

 

What if only 1% of players could beat the game on PotD?

What if only 20% of people beats the game at all, does that mean 80% of the game can be cut content and empty locations like Ukaizo is?

 

The smallest part of players who beats your games and gives you criticism & support are those who will buy your next game, and every other one after it.

 

 

That's missing the point. I think we can all agree that PotD that is beatable by 100% of the player base is too easy. The more you crank up the difficulty, the lower the clearance (heck, even attempt) rate. But what is an "appropriate" difficult level? A 0% clearance (i.e. literally impossible) is clearly too hard, so somewhere in between. But for all the talk about empirics and "real world evidence" that people like cokane are going on about, there's no actual empirically-derived and measurable/objective threshold people are putting forth, other than essentially "difficult enough for me" which is not anything objective and purely anecdotal; "difficult enough for me" is so wishy-washy that only like 100 people in the world could beat it, and half of those 100 people would be still be going on about how there's no challenge.

 

You're misrepresenting what I said again, which is something people without an argument tend to do. I didn't use the word empirical and I never argued there's some objective standard for POTD. However, other folks *did* argue that Deadfire was objectively, empirically easier to balance. Weird how you haven't said anything criticizing them.

[thelee]

 

But what is an "appropriate" difficult level? A 0% clearance (i.e. literally impossible) is clearly too hard, so somewhere in between.

It's not about clearance.

 

It's about veteran rpg players using most of their (full) party and resources avaible to them. If you're drinking healing potions then the fight is difficult.

 

This difficulty already exists, and it is called levels 1-8. The whole thread is about what happens with difficulty after levels 1-8(10/12 depending on your game).

 

Unmodded game for now has such XP curve and XP rewards, that you overlevel MOST of the content after 20 hours or so. It's not about theorycrafting here; you simply overlevel monsters hard very quickly.

 

 

You're saying you're disagreeing with me, but you're saying the exact same thing as me

 

Literally right after that selective quote, I wrote (bolded added):

 

My point about encounters just not being designed for level 14-20 isn't just my opinion, if you go look at the native levels for the quests, they are significantly front-loaded to mid-low levels. Obsidian went through the game with a power gamer on their staff and retuned accordingly, and barring an objective metric, I think this is "good enough" (and i await magran's challenges for further difficulty tweaking). The problem, again, is that they retuned all the quests/encounters that they currently have, which is heavily weighted to lower/mid levels, and there's hardly anything for higher levels. Scanning through this list, there are only two level 18 quests: Nemnok and Lost Grimoires, and those run concurrently (so you can't really count them separately). There's nothing higher. Paradise of the Mind isn't on this list, but I suspect it's level 17, 18 at the most. Considering that being at party level (quest_level - 1) is probably the right spot for a challenge at higher levels (due to super linear power creep thanks to getting more unique gear and better abilities), that means for levels 18, 19, and 20 there's literally nothing in the game that you can use your sweet high-level gear/abilities on in a worthy fashion.

 

So basically, give me some DLC with a lot more high-level encounters, tuned in the same way that they tuned 1.1 PotD. I think that would suffice. People still complaining at that point will probably never be happy unless they're playing an original rogue-like.

My clearance rate comment is directed at all the chatter about objective/real world evidence, where none is being provided. In the absence of said empirical data (and truthfully, Obsidian has way more data than us because they have telemetry and we don't), them running through the encounters with a powergamer on staff is "good enough" for me, and it shows, because when you're playing the early game at levels the quests were designed for, PotD actually feels like I can't turn my brain off and just autoattack my way through. The problem, as I've constantly repeated and maintained, is that there just aren't that many natively higher-level encounters and quests (i.e. ignoring upscaling, because upscaling can slow down how trivialized a difficult encounter can become, but won't maintain it or make an easy encounter any harder).

Edited June 20, 2018 by thelee

[cokane]

 

But what is an "appropriate" difficult level? A 0% clearance (i.e. literally impossible) is clearly too hard, so somewhere in between.

It's not about clearance.

 

It's about veteran rpg players using most of their (full) party and resources avaible to them. If you're drinking healing potions then the fight is difficult.

 

This difficulty already exists, and it is called levels 1-8. The whole thread is about what happens with difficulty after levels 1-8(10/12 depending on your game).

 

Unmodded game for now has such XP curve and XP rewards, that you overlevel MOST of the content after 20 hours or so. It's not about theorycrafting here; you simply overlevel monsters hard very quickly.

 

This is really the key. You can beat the overwhelming majority of fights in Deadfire even on the higher difficulties without ever engaging with potions, other craftable items, even enchanting gear. You don't even have to worry about party composition or good builds.

 

Now don't get me wrong, the original game wasn't exactly super difficult. But at the very least, engaging with these extra gameplay elements allowed you to do things like clear out dungeons or wilderness areas more rapidly. So at least the player got to enjoy some benefit from taking the time to invest in powering up their party.

 

The problem is in Deadfire, there's much less palpable benefit to making your party better. So long as you're avoiding the knockdown and thus wounds, there's literally no difference if you win a fight at one health point and exhausting all your abilities, or not. Moreover even when you do use empowers and suffer wounds, camping is such a minimal cost that there isn't any "agony" in the decision making. You rest, burn some very minor resources and boom, you're just as well off as a party that maximized the use of every system.

[thelee]

 

 

But what is an "appropriate" difficult level? A 0% clearance (i.e. literally impossible) is clearly too hard, so somewhere in between.

It's not about clearance.

 

It's about veteran rpg players using most of their (full) party and resources avaible to them. If you're drinking healing potions then the fight is difficult.

 

This difficulty already exists, and it is called levels 1-8. The whole thread is about what happens with difficulty after levels 1-8(10/12 depending on your game).

 

Unmodded game for now has such XP curve and XP rewards, that you overlevel MOST of the content after 20 hours or so. It's not about theorycrafting here; you simply overlevel monsters hard very quickly.

 

This is really the key. You can beat the overwhelming majority of fights in Deadfire even on the higher difficulties without ever engaging with potions, other craftable items, even enchanting gear. You don't even have to worry about party composition or good builds.

 

Now don't get me wrong, the original game wasn't exactly super difficult. But at the very least, engaging with these extra gameplay elements allowed you to do things like clear out dungeons or wilderness areas more rapidly. So at least the player got to enjoy some benefit from taking the time to invest in powering up their party.

 

The problem is in Deadfire, there's much less palpable benefit to making your party better. So long as you're avoiding the knockdown and thus wounds, there's literally no difference if you win a fight at one health point and exhausting all your abilities, or not. Moreover even when you do use empowers and suffer wounds, camping is such a minimal cost that there isn't any "agony" in the decision making. You rest, burn some very minor resources and boom, you're just as well off as a party that maximized the use of every system.

 

I don't expect the rest triviality to change much because there would be such an uproar from anyone not interested in a challenge, but I would love for there to be a magran's challenge that did something like prevent usage of any common food or drink for resting, or like limit it to food/drink of value >$some_nominal_amount (everything else just becomes rations for sailing) just so resting feels a bit more constrained and thus injuries and per-rest empower limits more meaningful.

[Myztik]

They should require crafted meals to cure injuries or include actual penalties (-1 Resolve the horror)

[InsaneCommander]

They should require crafted meals to cure injuries or include actual penalties (-1 Resolve the horror)

 

No xp gain

[cokane]

 

 

 

But what is an "appropriate" difficult level? A 0% clearance (i.e. literally impossible) is clearly too hard, so somewhere in between.

It's not about clearance.

 

It's about veteran rpg players using most of their (full) party and resources avaible to them. If you're drinking healing potions then the fight is difficult.

 

This difficulty already exists, and it is called levels 1-8. The whole thread is about what happens with difficulty after levels 1-8(10/12 depending on your game).

 

Unmodded game for now has such XP curve and XP rewards, that you overlevel MOST of the content after 20 hours or so. It's not about theorycrafting here; you simply overlevel monsters hard very quickly.

 

This is really the key. You can beat the overwhelming majority of fights in Deadfire even on the higher difficulties without ever engaging with potions, other craftable items, even enchanting gear. You don't even have to worry about party composition or good builds.

 

Now don't get me wrong, the original game wasn't exactly super difficult. But at the very least, engaging with these extra gameplay elements allowed you to do things like clear out dungeons or wilderness areas more rapidly. So at least the player got to enjoy some benefit from taking the time to invest in powering up their party.

 

The problem is in Deadfire, there's much less palpable benefit to making your party better. So long as you're avoiding the knockdown and thus wounds, there's literally no difference if you win a fight at one health point and exhausting all your abilities, or not. Moreover even when you do use empowers and suffer wounds, camping is such a minimal cost that there isn't any "agony" in the decision making. You rest, burn some very minor resources and boom, you're just as well off as a party that maximized the use of every system.

 

I don't expect the rest triviality to change much because there would be such an uproar from anyone not interested in a challenge, but I would love for there to be a magran's challenge that did something like prevent usage of any common food or drink for resting, or like limit it to food/drink of value >$some_nominal_amount (everything else just becomes rations for sailing) just so resting feels a bit more constrained and thus injuries and per-rest empower limits more meaningful.

 

Ya, I'm totally down for this change, even as an optional setting, it's something I suggested earlier, basically make only crafted foods heal injuries + make food more expensive, probably significantly so. You could even make both those things separate settings. But the food crafting system is good! It's pretty intuitive and if it was more necessary, it actually gives the player great reason to explore a lot of the game, searching for those ingredients.

 

And if you were always spending a decent chunk of cash, or good found items on rests, you'd be a lot more hesitant to always rest. You might push on with a couple of injuries, and for good reason.

 

I think just that simple change at least gives the player a reason to try and max out their parties, even if they won't always see the benefits like they did in previous games of this type.

Edited June 21, 2018 by cokane

[the streaker]

 

 

 

Why is that a problem and since when does nobody like a rest-heavy character? D&D became famous partly on the back of powerful wizards, sorcerers and priests with a limited number of uses before resting. The balance was the DM, which would equate to the game designer in cRPGs. There's nothing wrong with having diversity between the classes. How boring is it that every class in PoE2 has all per-encounter spells, an arbitrary expendable resource (rogues run out of "guile" as the battle goes on? barbs run out of rage? what??), an an arbitrary "empower" button that magically makes everything stronger?

 

But I would say that DM is the crucial difference there. I have never done any P&P roleplaying but I have no doubt a per-rest system can work very well in that context, because you have the DM there who's probably not going to have you take a nap after every fight (and presumably, in that sort of setting the roleplaying component will be much more pronounced so most people wouldn't want to either). But of course P&P also offers much more flexibility in getting around a fight and such. If your party is exhausted and your casters low on spells, and they spot some unfriendly ogres on their path, they can maybe just go around, or prepare an ambush, or attempt to scare them away / convince them to leave (using an illusion spell maybe, or just a really convincing / intimidating character). Hell, they could set fire to the surrounding forest and drive them off that way. And I should imagine that in P&P gaming, beating a tactical retreat is actually possible as well (realistically, having seen you off the ogres are probably not overly interested in chasing you to the ends of the earth). I would love for this to be actually possible in computer games as well. But you'd need an equivalent of a DM in the game to be able to do that, and in general an engine that allows for vastly more flexibility. That is very hard to actually do, of course.

 

I seem to have side-tracked somewhat, but yeah... per-rest systems work just fine in that context. To me, it never felt it translated at all well to cRPG. The cost of resting and time elapsing is just too ambiguous for it to balance very well. Which isn't to say that per-encounter doesn't have flaws, it clearly does. Having longer-term tactical aspects and being incentivised not to use the same abilities every fight are certainly things I would like to see very much as well (and in general, more organic design than discrete resource pools and spell levels and power levels and such). I don't thing 'per-rest' can properly accomplish that though.

 

 

Have you tried the Baldur's Gates and the Icewind Dales? You can get ambushed while resting in dangerous areas, or while traveling through dangerous areas. I'm not saying the balance was immaculate, but there are better ways of limiting rest than gold/expendable resources.

 

 

All that meant was that you quick-saved before every rest and reloaded if you got ambushed. It was dumb.

 

It was doubly dumb in BG and IWD (versus BG2 and IWD2) because many ambushes were nowhere near balanced for even a partially resource-expended level 1-2 party so if you didn't reload you would probably be game over-ed anyway. (Same thing with ambushes when going from map to map.)

 

 

In other words, save scumming. It's basically cheating, you don't need to do it, and most games are vulnerable to it in some form or another. I already mentioned the balance issue.

[Ichthyic]

 

They should require crafted meals to cure injuries or include actual penalties (-1 Resolve the horror)

 

No xp gain

 

I recently also finished playing "Battletech".  In that game, injuries forced you into the medical facility for an extended period of healing, where you weren't available for missions.  this could take up to 2 months, or even more in some cases.  costs were implemented not only in the fact you were down a crew member (who is not gaining any xp), and might have to take less valuable contracts, but in that since there was salary, maintenance on your ship, etc... down time was expensive.

 

this games comes CLOSE to that in having maintenance costs for your ship (and non adventure party) crew, but it could do more to extend the shipboard system... to the adventuring party itself.  being injured in combat (or during world map adventure text events) would force you to swap out one of your party members for another, or a sidekick, until they were healed by your surgeon on your ship, just like any other crew member.  Fleshing this out and integrating it better into the entire game would also make it far more interesting IMO.  what difference does it make if your crew is injured by a cannon during ship to ship combat, vs an ogre while adventuring on an island?  you should have to spend some time in the hospital to fully repair injuries sustained, either way.

 

In combat healing spells and abilities would be more like applying a tourniquet, instead of completely repairing you.  visits to the surgeon being required for full healing, and that would take time, depending on the number and severity of the injuries sustained.

 

Again, the system is pretty much already in place in this game, it's just that currently it is only applied to crew on board your ship, instead of to characters you can include in your adventuring party.

 

in fact, it might not be that hard to make a mod that does this.

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by Ichthyic

[cokane]

...

 

In other words, save scumming. It's basically cheating, you don't need to do it, and most games are vulnerable to it in some form or another. I already mentioned the balance issue.

 

 

Yes, very well said. I don't think "you can save scum that away" is a very productive criticism of game design. In games with a liberal save option, like all these RPGs, you can say this about any challenge in the game, whether it's random or not. You can say this about even the role play conversations, about thieving, about any major plot decisions you make.

 

At the very least random encounters meant that it wasn't a huge risk to try and rest just once, but that "rest until fully healed" was generally a bad tactic. It wasn't that bad of a design imo, and it was something carried over from the old SSI games. There's also plenty of in-game, not immersion breaking, role-playing things you can do in the BG games to cut down ambush odds, rest in a corner of the map instead of certain high-traffic areas, for instance. You might not believe me, but it's true! I have some sympathy for players occasionally save scumming or otherwise neutralizing aspects they don't like. However, I think if it becomes reflex for every hard or tedious element, you're short-changing yourself on a better gameplay experience.