Deadfire vs Tyranny

[gkathellar]

Imo Tyranny is way more railroady than it tries to appear.

 

I don't know that it's even debatable: you can side with whoever you want, so long as you do it at particular pre-approved plot junctures. If you try to switch sides at any other time, you're pretty much out of luck. That's pretty much the definition of "on the rails."

[Yria]

 

I don't know that it's even debatable: you can side with whoever you want, so long as you do it at particular pre-approved plot junctures. If you try to switch sides at any other time, you're pretty much out of luck. That's pretty much the definition of "on the rails."

 

And these junctures usually make no sense at all. I managed to drop the Chorus at a more or less meaningful plot point, but all the Disfavored betrayal options were just a huge wtf for me.

[algroth]

Well, murdering the baby in the Stalwart questline is the Disfavored option, isn't it? And there's one point during the Conquest where the Disfavored option is to ambush and slaughter the entirety of a peace envoy. But in general I think you're right; they don't get as much opportunity to show it off as the Chorus does.

I played the Disfavoured path in my first playthrough, and was able to keep the baby alive by having the mother relinquish the baby's right to rule. But when the time came to deal with Cairn, the only option was to permanently blight the lands (I don't recall being given the option to break alliance here). Which I definitely see as a despicable act, this paired to the Disfavoured's usual lack of concern for the livelihood of their "lessers".

[Katarack21]

 

Well, murdering the baby in the Stalwart questline is the Disfavored option, isn't it? And there's one point during the Conquest where the Disfavored option is to ambush and slaughter the entirety of a peace envoy. But in general I think you're right; they don't get as much opportunity to show it off as the Chorus does.

I played the Disfavoured path in my first playthrough, and was able to keep the baby alive by having the mother relinquish the baby's right to rule. But when the time came to deal with Cairn, the only option was to permanently blight the lands (I don't recall being given the option to break alliance here). Which I definitely see as a despicable act, this paired to the Disfavoured's usual lack of concern for the livelihood of their "lessers".

 

Yes, but that's a neutral option--you get that option from having a high enough rating in a particular stat or from reading a document in the Burning Library, and you can do it on any path. The default Disfavored path, barring that stat/document, is to murder the baby--just as the default Scarlet Chorus path, barring that stat/document, is to give her to the Voices of Nerat (where she apparently lies alone in an empty room for most of every day).

[Yria]

i got a weird bug on my Chorus -> anarchy playthrough with that baby. In theory she should have remained with the Scarlet Chorus because what else, but the slides claimed I killed Amelia and left the baby in the Blade Grave where, apparently, she was able to survive all on her own since the edict was still in power.

 

default Scarlet Chorus path, barring that stat/document, is to give her to the Voices of Nerat (where she apparently lies alone in an empty room for most of every day).

 

Nerat claims they will raise her as a proper Chorus lady though. She is in for some tough life.

Also, I don't think there is an option to even use the stat check on the Chorus path. Their goal is to keep the edict, not to break it. I tried to provoke them there hoping to get a "betray alliance" option, but nope. The only choice you can make is whether to give Amelia to Nerat along with the baby or kill her right there.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Yria

[Katarack21]

i got a weird bug on my Chorus -> anarchy playthrough with that baby. In theory she should have remained with the Scarlet Chorus because what else, but the slides claimed I killed Amelia and left the baby in the Blade Grave where, apparently, she was able to survive all on her own since the edict was still in power.

 

default Scarlet Chorus path, barring that stat/document, is to give her to the Voices of Nerat (where she apparently lies alone in an empty room for most of every day).

 

Nerat claims they will raise her as a proper Chorus lady though. She is in for some tough life.

Also, I don't think there is an option to even use the stat check on the Chorus path. Their goal is to keep the edict, not to break it. I tried to provoke them there hoping to get a "betray alliance" option, but nope. The only choice you can make is whether to give Amelia to Nerat along with the baby or kill her right there.

Maybe for that you actually need the document? Not sure. It's interesting to point out that if you leave Amelia and go talk to Graven Ashe about the whole thing, he'll actually demand that you go back and kill both Amelia and the baby....who are of course his own daughter and grand child. Because ew, race traitor and filthy southern hybrid.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Katarack21

[eschu101]

 

 

 

To some degree, but looting from civilians, random murder of civilians, and *especially* rape of anybody--civilian or military--are all considered war crimes by international law.

 

 

 

i just think it's a tad... tilted to judge the evil/good of a military or a military doctrine using modern measurements when these actions take place in an iron age world. things change, values change. etc.

 

I can see where you're coming from, but the Scarlet Chorus was written with these things with the *intention* that they'd be judged as evil. The Disfavored and the Scarlet Chorus are designed to be the two faces of evil; cold, calculating, pragmatic evil vs wild, chaotic, uninhibited evil. Both also have good sides to them; the Disfavored are disciplined, honorable, and respect the law while the Scarlet Chorus is egalitarian, values freedom, and considers individual achievement to be the best measure of leadership.

 

The choice your supposed to have is "What values are more important to me? What moral compromises will I make for those values?"

 

 

I'm agree with that, Disfavored is Loyal Evil and Scarlet Chorus is Chaotic Evil.

 

In a way Disfavored is fascism and Scarlet Chorus is bolchevism-leninism.

 

However you're wrong about Waffen-SS, non-german Division are real division like the Viking Division (Scandinavians), Wallonie Division (Belgium) and Charlemagne Division (French).

 

Because leninism is evil, obviously! Hahaha, damn liberals.

 

Tyranny isnt about "in a world where evil won". Its about the foundation of a state, the uprising of a great power. This is happening everyday since always.

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

 

To some degree, but looting from civilians, random murder of civilians, and *especially* rape of anybody--civilian or military--are all considered war crimes by international law.

 

 

 

i just think it's a tad... tilted to judge the evil/good of a military or a military doctrine using modern measurements when these actions take place in an iron age world. things change, values change. etc.

 

I can see where you're coming from, but the Scarlet Chorus was written with these things with the *intention* that they'd be judged as evil. The Disfavored and the Scarlet Chorus are designed to be the two faces of evil; cold, calculating, pragmatic evil vs wild, chaotic, uninhibited evil. Both also have good sides to them; the Disfavored are disciplined, honorable, and respect the law while the Scarlet Chorus is egalitarian, values freedom, and considers individual achievement to be the best measure of leadership.

 

The choice your supposed to have is "What values are more important to me? What moral compromises will I make for those values?"

 

 

I'm agree with that, Disfavored is Loyal Evil and Scarlet Chorus is Chaotic Evil.

 

In a way Disfavored is fascism and Scarlet Chorus is bolchevism-leninism.

 

However you're wrong about Waffen-SS, non-german Division are real division like the Viking Division (Scandinavians), Wallonie Division (Belgium) and Charlemagne Division (French).

 

Because leninism is evil, obviously! Hahaha, damn liberals.

 

Tyranny isnt about "in a world where evil won". Its about the foundation of a state, the uprising of a great power. This is happening everyday since always.

 

The slogan for the game is "Sometimes, evil wins." The developers statement of intent is "a game that challenges players to find their place in an original fantasy realm where evil has conquered the known world.”

 

Like, this isn't difficult, you know?

 

Edited June 4, 2018 by Katarack21

[eschu101]

 

 

 

 

 

To some degree, but looting from civilians, random murder of civilians, and *especially* rape of anybody--civilian or military--are all considered war crimes by international law.

 

 

 

i just think it's a tad... tilted to judge the evil/good of a military or a military doctrine using modern measurements when these actions take place in an iron age world. things change, values change. etc.

 

I can see where you're coming from, but the Scarlet Chorus was written with these things with the *intention* that they'd be judged as evil. The Disfavored and the Scarlet Chorus are designed to be the two faces of evil; cold, calculating, pragmatic evil vs wild, chaotic, uninhibited evil. Both also have good sides to them; the Disfavored are disciplined, honorable, and respect the law while the Scarlet Chorus is egalitarian, values freedom, and considers individual achievement to be the best measure of leadership.

 

The choice your supposed to have is "What values are more important to me? What moral compromises will I make for those values?"

 

 

I'm agree with that, Disfavored is Loyal Evil and Scarlet Chorus is Chaotic Evil.

 

In a way Disfavored is fascism and Scarlet Chorus is bolchevism-leninism.

 

However you're wrong about Waffen-SS, non-german Division are real division like the Viking Division (Scandinavians), Wallonie Division (Belgium) and Charlemagne Division (French).

 

Because leninism is evil, obviously! Hahaha, damn liberals.

 

Tyranny isnt about "in a world where evil won". Its about the foundation of a state, the uprising of a great power. This is happening everyday since always.

 

The slogan for the game is "Sometimes, evil wins." The developers statement of intent is "a game that challenges players to find their place in an original fantasy realm where evil has conquered the known world.”

 

Like, this isn't difficult, you know?

 

 

Thats called advertising. It doesnt include the nuances of storytelling and worldbuilding.

 

Anyway, you still could call that "evil won" in the game just because people do bad ****. And i'm not saying that they are not evil, because "evil" is exactly the subject of debate. 

[eschu101]

 

 

 

 

 

To some degree, but looting from civilians, random murder of civilians, and *especially* rape of anybody--civilian or military--are all considered war crimes by international law.

 

 

 

i just think it's a tad... tilted to judge the evil/good of a military or a military doctrine using modern measurements when these actions take place in an iron age world. things change, values change. etc.

 

I can see where you're coming from, but the Scarlet Chorus was written with these things with the *intention* that they'd be judged as evil. The Disfavored and the Scarlet Chorus are designed to be the two faces of evil; cold, calculating, pragmatic evil vs wild, chaotic, uninhibited evil. Both also have good sides to them; the Disfavored are disciplined, honorable, and respect the law while the Scarlet Chorus is egalitarian, values freedom, and considers individual achievement to be the best measure of leadership.

 

The choice your supposed to have is "What values are more important to me? What moral compromises will I make for those values?"

 

 

I'm agree with that, Disfavored is Loyal Evil and Scarlet Chorus is Chaotic Evil.

 

In a way Disfavored is fascism and Scarlet Chorus is bolchevism-leninism.

 

However you're wrong about Waffen-SS, non-german Division are real division like the Viking Division (Scandinavians), Wallonie Division (Belgium) and Charlemagne Division (French).

 

Because leninism is evil, obviously! Hahaha, damn liberals.

 

Tyranny isnt about "in a world where evil won". Its about the foundation of a state, the uprising of a great power. This is happening everyday since always.

 

The slogan for the game is "Sometimes, evil wins." The developers statement of intent is "a game that challenges players to find their place in an original fantasy realm where evil has conquered the known world.”

 

Like, this isn't difficult, you know?

 

 

Thats called advertising. It doesnt include the nuances of storytelling and worldbuilding.

 

Anyway, you still could call that "evil won" in the game just because people do bad ****. And i'm not saying that they are not evil, because evil is exactly the subject of debate. 

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

 

 

 

To some degree, but looting from civilians, random murder of civilians, and *especially* rape of anybody--civilian or military--are all considered war crimes by international law.

 

 

 

i just think it's a tad... tilted to judge the evil/good of a military or a military doctrine using modern measurements when these actions take place in an iron age world. things change, values change. etc.

 

I can see where you're coming from, but the Scarlet Chorus was written with these things with the *intention* that they'd be judged as evil. The Disfavored and the Scarlet Chorus are designed to be the two faces of evil; cold, calculating, pragmatic evil vs wild, chaotic, uninhibited evil. Both also have good sides to them; the Disfavored are disciplined, honorable, and respect the law while the Scarlet Chorus is egalitarian, values freedom, and considers individual achievement to be the best measure of leadership.

 

The choice your supposed to have is "What values are more important to me? What moral compromises will I make for those values?"

 

 

I'm agree with that, Disfavored is Loyal Evil and Scarlet Chorus is Chaotic Evil.

 

In a way Disfavored is fascism and Scarlet Chorus is bolchevism-leninism.

 

However you're wrong about Waffen-SS, non-german Division are real division like the Viking Division (Scandinavians), Wallonie Division (Belgium) and Charlemagne Division (French).

 

Because leninism is evil, obviously! Hahaha, damn liberals.

 

Tyranny isnt about "in a world where evil won". Its about the foundation of a state, the uprising of a great power. This is happening everyday since always.

 

The slogan for the game is "Sometimes, evil wins." The developers statement of intent is "a game that challenges players to find their place in an original fantasy realm where evil has conquered the known world.”

 

Like, this isn't difficult, you know?

 

 

Thats called advertising. It doesnt include the nuances of storytelling and worldbuilding.

 

Anyway, you still could call that "evil won" in the game just because people do bad ****. And i'm not saying that they are not evil, because "evil" is exactly the subject of debate. 

 

One is advertising. The other is literally a stated design goal. Like, that's not marketing, that's *what they wanted to do with the game*. The point of the game isn't to build a powerful state; it's to explore the consequences of trying to make moral decisions in a world that is defined by evil in every section from the top-down.

[Yria]

Maybe for that you actually need the document? Not sure. 

 

I don't think so. The Scarlet Chorus don't need Amelia to renounce her right to rule, they need exactly the opposite: an heir to the land must live so that the Edict of Storms would remain in force. That's why Nerat keeps the girl alive even though he kills Amelia. There is simply no use for the legal loophole because the Chorus' situation is entirely different. 

 

Now, the fact that you can't say "Screw you, I'm going solo" and betray them, saving the baby AND her mother, is indeed strange. But it's not the only such instance in the game. 

[gkathellar]

 

Maybe for that you actually need the document? Not sure. 

 

I don't think so. The Scarlet Chorus don't need Amelia to renounce her right to rule, they need exactly the opposite: an heir to the land must live so that the Edict of Storms would remain in force. That's why Nerat keeps the girl alive even though he kills Amelia. There is simply no use for the legal loophole because the Chorus' situation is entirely different. 

 

Now, the fact that you can't say "Screw you, I'm going solo" and betray them, saving the baby AND her mother, is indeed strange. But it's not the only such instance in the game.

 

My suspicion is that they blocked out the plot in chunks, and so they couldn't allow you to change sides mid-chunk or the plot would have broken.

 

Or, as you put it earlier: railroading.

[Casper]

i guess one of the things i liked about tyranny... the game wasn't about a world conquered by mustache twirling evil, but evil of or for a purpose. making the events in game a tad more murky, but, perhaps no less evil, or maybe even making this more evil because of it.

[Katarack21]

i guess one of the things i liked about tyranny... the game wasn't about a world conquered by mustache twirling evil, but evil of or for a purpose. making the events in game a tad more murky, but, perhaps no less evil, or maybe even making this more evil because of it.

 

There's definitely a solid argument for Kyro's rule; it may be brutal, tyrannical, and establish a definite structure of maintaining their power, but in the places that are under the Overlords control it's also peaceful, stable, and the system directly establishes equality of gender, race, etc.

[Tagaziel]

There's definitely a solid argument for Kyro's rule; it may be brutal, tyrannical, and establish a definite structure of maintaining their power, but in the places that are under the Overlords control it's also peaceful, stable, and the system directly establishes equality of gender, race, etc.

This is also why I have problems describing Kyros as purely evil, as she replaces the myriad of unstable polities with long traditions of feuding and internecine warfare with a stable system of governance, redistribution of wealth, and removal of existing hierarchies - plus the means for advancement for the common folk, even people who started life as slaves.

 

Then again, I never found Tyranny to be particularly, well, evil. It shows conquest without pulling any stops, but it doesn't do the "cackling evil" for the most part (except for Voices, it rocks).

[Katarack21]

Voices is actually one of the people that I have the most difficult time qualifying as "evil". He's bat**** insane--his backstory makes it pretty clear he was paranoid and had persecution fantasies even before he was an Archon--and on top of that, he's no longer in full control of all the hundreds of personalities inside his head. Overall, I'm not sure he can actually be held to personal account for the things he does.

[Stephen Unsworth-Mitchell]

Kyros uses games to keep everyone in place doesn't really sound evil more like politician.

 

Voices agree with katarack21 he bat**** insane. Even by british law standerds he be found criminally insane.

 

Graven ash can be classed racist but don't really say he evil. He like father to all his soldiers. Bad father to his daughter.

 

Tunon the adjudicator is not evil he applies the law. He do same whether laws are good or bad.

 

Bleden mark is an assassin, not really evil he good at killing and its his job. He likes tell people when he after them so no not evil.

 

Sirin Had abusive father that used her for profit. She learned to manipulate people to do things and at times show shallow childish nature so don't class as evil just childishly foolish and manipulative.