The Good and the Unfortunately Very Bad of POE2: a review NO SPOILERS

[algroth]

I mean, it's right there if you google it up. It's on Wikipedia for Christ's sake. If you want to assume the issue was not that people were screaming "SJW agenda" at the game, be my guest, but all proof points to it being the case (in its majority). Meanwhile, I think the lecturing is a byproduct of terrible writing, but I don't see it as the deliberate intention, nor do I think it's anywhere in the vicinity of wrongness that the example you posted is even if it were the intention behind it. Context is important, and in this case, it's this bloody line. It really doesn't deserve this discussion, less so this much time after the fact.

Edited May 28, 2018 by algroth

[PizzaSHARK]

 

 

I think the OP has a point, it's just taken to an unhealthy extreme and isn't coming across well. Writing of female characters and minorities in video games can easily fall into lazy stereotypes and Obsidian has definitely been guilty of this. Tekehu by himself isn't a problem, but when you have a cast of seven companions with five of them being bisexual and most of them coming onto you strongly... that's a problem.

 

Yeah, that's a severe problem with romance pacing. 

 

Five minutes of Maia in my party and she's already asking if I'm banging anyone. 

 

There are times when I wonder if my watcher has Aloth, Eder and Pally rotating shifts outside his door to keep the horndogs away.

 

 

Gee it's almost like people sometimes act, swiftly, on impulse when they're physically attracted to someone.

 

Also, anecdotal, but yours was too: Maia had been in my party for many hours of gametime before she asked me about that.

 

Also also, because it's actually kind of important: the way in which that conversation plays out is actually quite witty, even if it's quite blunt.

 

Anyway, I don't agree that anything described in these two posts is 'a problem'.

 

 

If it was just one character, it'd actually be fine - Viconia in BG2, for example, will bang CHARNAME very, very easily because it suits her character design (she's a Drow priestess, basically top dog in Drow culture even if she's kind of a rebel and worships Shar instead of Lloth.)  Her entire character arc, especially with Throne of Bhaal included, is about her learning how to be "normal," in the context of non-Drow races.

 

If you have a whole boat full of randy omnisexuals that come onto the PC basically automatically (as opposed to there needing to be a spark struck first)... then, yeah, you have an issue.

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

I think the OP has a point, it's just taken to an unhealthy extreme and isn't coming across well. Writing of female characters and minorities in video games can easily fall into lazy stereotypes and Obsidian has definitely been guilty of this. Tekehu by himself isn't a problem, but when you have a cast of seven companions with five of them being bisexual and most of them coming onto you strongly... that's a problem.

 

Yeah, that's a severe problem with romance pacing. 

 

Five minutes of Maia in my party and she's already asking if I'm banging anyone. 

 

There are times when I wonder if my watcher has Aloth, Eder and Pally rotating shifts outside his door to keep the horndogs away.

 

 

Gee it's almost like people sometimes act, swiftly, on impulse when they're physically attracted to someone.

 

Also, anecdotal, but yours was too: Maia had been in my party for many hours of gametime before she asked me about that.

 

Also also, because it's actually kind of important: the way in which that conversation plays out is actually quite witty, even if it's quite blunt.

 

Anyway, I don't agree that anything described in these two posts is 'a problem'.

 

 

If it was just one character, it'd actually be fine - Viconia in BG2, for example, will bang CHARNAME very, very easily because it suits her character design (she's a Drow priestess, basically top dog in Drow culture even if she's kind of a rebel and worships Shar instead of Lloth.)  Her entire character arc, especially with Throne of Bhaal included, is about her learning how to be "normal," in the context of non-Drow races.

 

If you have a whole boat full of randy omnisexuals that come onto the PC basically automatically (as opposed to there needing to be a spark struck first)... then, yeah, you have an issue.

 

That "jumping into your pants immediately" thing is a bug. Like a real, actual bug. That doesn't reflect character design, writing, etc. It's a bug.

[PizzaSHARK]

 

Which is clearly incorrect, because "soul power" explains how... muscle fibers are more dense or whatever practical application of it you'd like to use.  I didn't get the guidebook backer tier, so there's clearly stuff that I don't know because it's not explained anywhere in-game.

 

Does it explain how "soul power" can violate the laws of physics?  Or does it explain that Eora's physical laws are substantially different from our own, despite the setting being presented in a way that makes it appear to be pretty similar to our own aside from obvious things like souls?

 

What's so hard to believe that men and women are physically the same despite looking different in a world where you can summon a big ass dragon out of no where just by singing songs?

 

Real world physics rules was never important in any fantasy world, otherwise it won't be called fantasy.

 

 

Actually, even with soul power being the explanation for all the overtly supernatual abilities of characters in Eora, women would still be less physically capable than men because their bodies are smaller and limbs shorter - assuming you have, like, a male Nappa and a female Nappa, their power level being the same doesn't matter.  The male Nappa has longer limbs and can therefore exert more total force (due to leverage given via the longer limbs) than the female Nappa even though they both have... what was Nappa's power level, again?  There's literally no way you can explain this away in fluff without explicitly stating that Eora does not have the same physical laws as the real world does, because at least as far as physical feats go (moving really fast, being really strong, etc) it's quite clear that they still operate on real-world physical principles.  Maybe the guidebook goes into this, I don't have it.  I'd think that fundamental differences in physics in the real world and Eora would bear mentioning in-game, though.

 

Admittedly this is splitting hairs, but I hope it serves to illustrate the point - you can't have sexual dimorphism and say that the physical capabilities of the smaller creature are equal to the physical capabilities of the larger creature, assuming all other variables are equal (they both have a power level of 9000, etc.)

 

Not this s...stuff again.

 

In general I've found that any time someone uses the acronym "SJW" in a non-ironic way there is a 97.3% that everything they say can be safely ignored.  This rule of thumb has served my blood pressure well.  Unfortunately if everyone were to follow this rule it means that a bunch of misogynstic, transphobic, homophobic garbage would go unrebutted.  So I salute you folks who have the patience to engage.  Ad astra per aspera!

 

 

SJW went from being a mark of pride to being a derogatory term not just because of Gamergate, but because a minority of people using that term to describe themselves had a tendency to take things a little too far.  It's essentially the left-leaning version of the alt-right phenomenon and kind of ties into the horseshoe concept, since these descriptors are generally political as much as they are ethical (you probably won't see proto-fascists in left-leaning political circles, and an SJW would probably find themselves ostracized in a far-right political group, etc.)

Edited May 28, 2018 by PizzaSHARK

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is some Codex level stuff right here.

What's really disgusting me is how freaking *many* of these "There are women doing things that I don't like women doing in this game!" so-called reviews have been showing up lately.

Really makes me question my self-identity as a "gamer" when I see what's up with parts of gamer culture these days.

I just don't understand why of all games it's this one that's getting ragged on for these reasons. So far this is like the least "political" game I've played all year.

RPGs seem to be particularly vulnerable to this stuff for some reason. The worst I've seen was the Beamdog forums during the release of Siege of Dragonspear a few years ago. The devs included a minor NPC with two lines of dialogue about gender fluidity and gamergate launched a weeks-long review bombing campaign knocking the metacritic and GoG scores down to 3 (meanwhile: 7.5 among verified Steam purchases). The developer downsized and hasn't released any OC since.

Yet it's somehow the "SJWs" who are still charicatured in the gaming community as the unreasonable value crusaders. Goes to show that gamergate was never really about combating censorship in gaming so much as fighting cultural change and representational diversity.

I mean, I get it. When games have been made with no care for any demographic but yours for the past thirty years, it's hard to adapt when the industry *finally* notices that other people want to play too. Same thing is happening with comic books – a female Thor and a black Spiderman are always going to cause some people's heads to just explode.

I was actually one of the people that had a problem with SoD. Now THAT was just virtue signaling garbage. It was embarassing. Don't get me started on the state of Marvel comics.

It was two lines of dialogue + a cheeky Minsc bark. The rest was imagined by gamergate conspiracy theorists and has since been roundly debunked – I won't sift through it again here. Regardless, no team of developers should have to go through something like that over something so minimal. Go back sometime, read the **** that was said to and about Amber Scott, read the metacritic review spam, and honestly defend that reaction as proportional to the "offending" content.

 

Gamergate has become everything that it claimed to hate about so-called "SJW's" — driven by victim/outrage politics, unreasonably prosecutorial, and finding cause for offense under every rock and behind every corner. OP practically wrote a manifesto on how a game that features cosmic space pigs and drug-addled monks is on a mission to emasculate him, FFS. That's not normal.

 

Gamers should be able to criticize content they don't like without assuming a pervasive and malicious agenda behind every creative decision. This culturally aggrieved conspiracy mongering has been out of hand for a while now.

"Hitler did nothing wrong" is one sentence but I imagine you'd have a problem if an NPC said that.

 

Your logic doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

 

Here's what one person said about Mizhena:

 

Hey there Beamdog forums. I just wanted to give my feelings on the inclusion of this character from the perspective of someone who is trans.

 

For background: I was born 1991, as a biological male. As early as I can remember, I have wished that I was born female. When I was in kindergarten, my teacher asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up and I said a girl. My parents first recognized (but not accepted) my feelings when I was four and thought I would grow out of it. I thought I would to, but I didn't. I'm 24 now, I've been on hormone replacement therapy for a while and am trying to make the best of my situation and live my life in the way I feel is most comfortable for me.

 

Baldur's Gate is one of my favorite games of all time. I first got the game when I was 10 and loved it. I remember deliberately giving my character the belt of femininity/masculinity because back then I didn't know it was possible to 'change' your gender, I had never heard the term transgender and didn't even know there were other people in the world who had feelings like me. It gave me a deep sense of personal investment in a game series that was already incredible without it, and I've replayed the games more times than I can count.

 

I was really excited to hear about Siege of Dragonspear because playing new content in one of my favorite old games is like a dream come true. I won't get into my feelings about the expansion, I just want to talk about the inclusion of Mizhena.

 

Mizhena is a cheap, lazy, 'safe' character who is included for the sole purpose of having a transgender character in the game.

 

Let me just say that as a transsexual I would never, EVER introduce myself to someone by telling them that I am a transsexual. Being trans is not fun. People are mean and cruel to you. You are mean and cruel to yourself. I do not do the things I do because I want to be a transsexual, I do them because I want to be a woman. I want to blend in as a girl as a best I can, the last thing I would EVER do is draw attention to myself for being trans (except for this thread of course, har har). Even when people are trying to be nice it feels awful. I have had people come up to me, tell me they liked my clothes or hair, converse with me, make me feel good, and then end the conversation with "You know, I think people like you are so brave" and that sentence just makes me want to die. I just want to be seen as a normal person. Of course, usually when you get attention for being trans, it is not positive at all, which brings me to my next point:

 

The way your character converses with Mizhena is almost totally different than it is for everyone else in the game. You can be rude, mean, funny, or just throw a witty retort or remark to almost everyone in the game over the smallest thing, but even an evil blackguard who murders everyone in sight can only say "What a lovely name, tell me more", "How interesting" or "Good day to you". I understand that it would be politically incorrect to be rude or insult a transgender character for being trans, but to me all that does is highlight that being trans is different. The trans character is not on the same level as every other character, who can 'take' abuse from you. The trans character has to be protected from this because they're different. The way the trans character is implemented doesn't make me feel like "I'm just like everyone else" as I imagine the writer intended, it just makes me feel more like a freak or novelty. It's unrealistic.

 

The inclusion of Mizhena is utterly pointless. Having a transgender character just to have one brings nothing to the story, all it does is take you back to the 'real world', which to me ruins the immersion I'm supposed to feel playing a fantasy game. I would rather there be no trans character than a pointless one.

 

I also think that this was a massively missed opportunity for something special. There have been transgender people in many cultures across all of human history, and there are certainly stories to tell here. Why couldn't it have been done in a fun or interesting way that actually fits the game? Maybe there could have been a transgender npc who asks you to find the belt of masculinity/femininity for them. Then if you asked them why, they would actually have some context to explain that they're trans. Or why not make the trans character a full on party member? You could have Jaheira call Mizhena out on being an abomination against nature (choice words from my own mother by the way), and maybe over your travels the two characters bond and Jaheira learns to accept and appreciate Mizhena for being who they are. And if you actually made Mizhena fun, witty, and interesting, and had good dialogue and interactions along the way, maybe somebody in real life would actually have better feelings towards transgender people after enjoying that quest line. Wouldn't that be something.

 

Harshness aside, I do want to say that other than this I think the expansion is fun and I applaud Beamdog for working hard on it, especially for getting the old voice actors back. I'm still looking forward to what you guys release in the future.

 

Hey, if we're gonna post statements from random people on the Internet to prove what the SoD fiasco was about, here's one for you.

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Katarack21

[Boeroer]

Let's say there is a game. That game is very good and has great dialogue, characters and all the stuff a good game needs.

 

It also doesn't tell you what's right or wrong, it just describes things and let's you draw your own conclusions.

 

Let's say in that game eating meat is evil. I do eat meat in real life. But why would I be upset about it? Because I'm insecure.

 

Now let's say that in this game the world is so that women rule over men and that's just the way that fictional society works.

 

I am male. Why would I be upset? Because I am insecure and confused.

 

In this game there are no white people. I am white. But why would I be upset? Because I'm insecure and I'm afraid.

 

In this game every woman is lesbian and the only "use" men to produce offspring, but not for fun. Why would I, as a white straight male, be offended? Because I am insecure and feel useless?

 

In this game tall men get discriminated because being short is the norm and the ideal. Why would I, as a tall guy, be offended? Because I am insecure when it comes to my height???

 

The last part shows that usually people get angry about stuff where they feel insecure and are afraid. No man is insecure about being tall (if it's not extreme and you are considered a freak). Hence nobody would complain about a game where tall people get ditched.

 

Feeling insecure and afraid is not considered to be very manly.

 

What an irony!

[Yosharian]

Hey, if we're gonna post statements from random people on the Internet to prove what the SoD fiasco was about, here's one for you.

 

 

 

> random people

 

Not a random person, specifically a trans person, the very person that the character is supposed to be written for and about.

 

> to prove what the SoD fiasco was about

 

I never once claimed that the quote I posted 'proved what the SoD fiasco was about'.

 

> Leftist propaganda

 

It's one of the reasons that the character wasn't liked.  Most of the trans content takes the form of a lecture, and the responses range from 'Bye' to 'I agree completely'.  So it's not entirely unreasonable to paint this content as propaganda.

 

> political agenda weaved into it

 

It absolutely does, from Mizhena herself, to Minsc's content, to the revision of pre-existing characters to make them more palatable from a 'progressive' point of view, including NPCs commenting on relationships from a modern feminist perspective, and probably more things that I can't recall off the top of my head.

 

You may not perceive it as such, probably because it seems the norm to you, but there absolutely is a political agenda weaved into SoD.

[Yosharian]

Let's say there is a game. That game is very good and has great dialogue, characters and all the stuff a good game needs.

 

It also doesn't tell you what's right or wrong, it just describes things and let's you draw your own conclusions.

 

Let's say in that game eating meat is evil. I do eat meat in real life. But why would I be upset about it? Because I'm insecure.

 

Now let's say that in this game the world is so that women rule over men and that's just the way that fictional society works.

 

I am male. Why would I be upset? Because I am insecure and confused.

 

In this game there are no white people. I am white. But why would I be upset? Because I'm insecure and I'm afraid.

 

In this game every woman is lesbian and the only "use" men to produce offspring, but not for fun. Why would I, as a white straight male, be offended? Because I am insecure and feel useless?

 

In this game tall men get discriminated because being short is the norm and the ideal. Why would I, as a tall guy, be offended? Because I am insecure when it comes to my height???

 

The last part shows that usually people get angry about stuff where they feel insecure and are afraid. No man is insecure about being tall (if it's not extreme and you are considered a freak). Hence nobody would complain about a game where tall people get ditched.

 

Feeling insecure and afraid is not considered to be very manly.

 

What an irony!

 

I would never have thought you could post something so silly, Boeroer.

[Yosharian]

 

 

Which is clearly incorrect, because "soul power" explains how... muscle fibers are more dense or whatever practical application of it you'd like to use.  I didn't get the guidebook backer tier, so there's clearly stuff that I don't know because it's not explained anywhere in-game.

 

Does it explain how "soul power" can violate the laws of physics?  Or does it explain that Eora's physical laws are substantially different from our own, despite the setting being presented in a way that makes it appear to be pretty similar to our own aside from obvious things like souls?

 

What's so hard to believe that men and women are physically the same despite looking different in a world where you can summon a big ass dragon out of no where just by singing songs?

 

Real world physics rules was never important in any fantasy world, otherwise it won't be called fantasy.

 

 

Actually, even with soul power being the explanation for all the overtly supernatual abilities of characters in Eora, women would still be less physically capable than men because their bodies are smaller and limbs shorter - assuming you have, like, a male Nappa and a female Nappa, their power level being the same doesn't matter.  The male Nappa has longer limbs and can therefore exert more total force (due to leverage given via the longer limbs) than the female Nappa even though they both have... what was Nappa's power level, again?  There's literally no way you can explain this away in fluff without explicitly stating that Eora does not have the same physical laws as the real world does, because at least as far as physical feats go (moving really fast, being really strong, etc) it's quite clear that they still operate on real-world physical principles.  Maybe the guidebook goes into this, I don't have it.  I'd think that fundamental differences in physics in the real world and Eora would bear mentioning in-game, though.

 

Admittedly this is splitting hairs, but I hope it serves to illustrate the point - you can't have sexual dimorphism and say that the physical capabilities of the smaller creature are equal to the physical capabilities of the larger creature, assuming all other variables are equal (they both have a power level of 9000, etc.)

 

Not this s...stuff again.

 

In general I've found that any time someone uses the acronym "SJW" in a non-ironic way there is a 97.3% that everything they say can be safely ignored.  This rule of thumb has served my blood pressure well.  Unfortunately if everyone were to follow this rule it means that a bunch of misogynstic, transphobic, homophobic garbage would go unrebutted.  So I salute you folks who have the patience to engage.  Ad astra per aspera!

 

 

SJW went from being a mark of pride to being a derogatory term not just because of Gamergate, but because a minority of people using that term to describe themselves had a tendency to take things a little too far.  It's essentially the left-leaning version of the alt-right phenomenon and kind of ties into the horseshoe concept, since these descriptors are generally political as much as they are ethical (you probably won't see proto-fascists in left-leaning political circles, and an SJW would probably find themselves ostracized in a far-right political group, etc.)

 

 

> you can't have sexual dimorphism and say that the physical capabilities of the smaller creature are equal to the physical capabilities of the larger creature, assuming all other variables are equal

 

You can if you don't think it's really crucial to have, for example, a strength malus to females and a bonus to males, in your game.

 

If it serves some gameplay purpose that isn't irrelevant or trivial, or if it plays an important part of immersion or some other role-playing aspect, then it could be more important.

 

But to say that you can't have sexually dimorphic species while simultaneously having no difference mechanically between males and females....

 

Why can't you?  What harm does it cause?

 

Personally I would consider it absolutely fine for males and females to have different attribute penalties/bonuses, but I don't see it as being so important that it's going to affect my enjoyment of the game, in the same way as it doesn't really bother me that the game doesn't have realistic bacterial infection mechanics, as per the example I gave earlier in the thread.

 

It's just not that important to the game.  It doesn't enrich the game to have these male/female differences.

[Boeroer]

I like to surprise people.

 

But surely you overlooked this:

It also doesn't tell you what's right or wrong, it just describes things and let's you draw your own conclusions.

I would be angry (perhaps) if a game would indeed try to tell me what I'm supposed to think. But I wouldn't be annoyed by a game where the Nazis rule and that's just a fact (in the scope of that game). Although I loathe Nazis in every shape and form. So why would I be offended by a game that shows me some man-hating women - unless the game wanted to tell me that all women in real-life should be like this?

Edited May 28, 2018 by Boeroer

[KentDA]

Pizzashark, your comment about "larger size meaning stronger" has serious issues.

 

I mean, look at Dwarves. Pretty much most games cast them as "durable and strong". They're also much smaller than humans.

 

Large amounts of body mass doesn't mean that you're stronger. With proper training, yes, you could be strong. But size isn't everything.

 

They cast the men as larger than the women. In most cases, men ARE larger than women. Simple biology.

 

I've also personally been thrown (at over six foot plus) by a woman who was maybe five foot four. It's not that she was Strong or that I was weak. She just knew proper leverage and how to use my size against me. IE trained Martial Artist vs John Doe.

 

Knowing HOW to use what muscle you have can go a long way.

[anathanielh]

This thread is semi-enjoyable but it just makes me flaccid, dude. I just wanna have a good time.

Reminds me of the “player sexual companion” thread but thankfully not as off-topic.

Honestly, if OP doesn’t like the women in this game because they aren’t like women in his area, that’s fine. I don’t agree with it in the slightest, but it’s fine.

What i can say doesn’t make sense is OP’s statement about the game imitating reality because it’s more “mature”. The thought that this fantasy game with magic, dragons, Eothas statues with probably huge junks, and elves/orlans/aumaua/etc. is trying to be realistic is absolutely deluded to me. Fantasy games can take inspiration from real life (like setting and weapons for example), but they’re definitely not obligated to model reality in any way. It’s the responsibility of the writers to define the rules and world of the game.

 

If you want a history game, there are many elsewhere, but this isn’t it.

Edited May 28, 2018 by anathanielh

[Yosharian]

Pizzashark, your comment about "larger size meaning stronger" has serious issues.

 

I mean, look at Dwarves. Pretty much most games cast them as "durable and strong". They're also much smaller than humans.

 

Large amounts of body mass doesn't mean that you're stronger. With proper training, yes, you could be strong. But size isn't everything.

 

They cast the men as larger than the women. In most cases, men ARE larger than women. Simple biology.

 

I've also personally been thrown (at over six foot plus) by a woman who was maybe five foot four. It's not that she was Strong or that I was weak. She just knew proper leverage and how to use my size against me. IE trained Martial Artist vs John Doe.

 

Knowing HOW to use what muscle you have can go a long way.

 

This isn't a good argument because dwarves are short, yes, but they're also very squat, as in wide.  Dwarves are muscular, they're just short.

 

PizzaShark isn't merely talking about height, so you're misrepresenting his argument.

 

> Large amounts of body mass doesn't mean that you're stronger

 

It doesn't necessarily mean you're stronger, true, but being stronger naturally means having larger muscles, wider shoulders, and so on.

 

Look at World's Strongest Man/Woman-types and show me the one that looks like a long distance runner.

 

Of course someone can just be a fat person and not be strong, but that's not what we're discussing.

 

> I've also personally been thrown (at over six foot plus) by a woman who was maybe five foot four. 

 

That's not strength, that's technique, and it's not what we're talking about.

 

The ability to use technique to achieve things way beyond your physical strength wouldn't be represented in-game by a large 'Might' score, it'd be represented by a particular class, or a particular ability/set of abilities.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Yosharian

[Casper]

also bulk doesn't necessarily translate to muscle. though it looks like someone already beat me to that point. *sigh*

[Katarack21]

 

Hey, if we're gonna post statements from random people on the Internet to prove what the SoD fiasco was about, here's one for you.

 

 

 

> random people

 

Not a random person, specifically a trans person, the very person that the character is supposed to be written for and about.

 

> to prove what the SoD fiasco was about

 

I never once claimed that the quote I posted 'proved what the SoD fiasco was about'.

 

> Leftist propaganda

 

It's one of the reasons that the character wasn't liked.  Most of the trans content takes the form of a lecture, and the responses range from 'Bye' to 'I agree completely'.  So it's not entirely unreasonable to paint this content as propaganda.

 

> political agenda weaved into it

 

It absolutely does, from Mizhena herself, to Minsc's content, to the revision of pre-existing characters to make them more palatable from a 'progressive' point of view, including NPCs commenting on relationships from a modern feminist perspective, and probably more things that I can't recall off the top of my head.

 

You may not perceive it as such, probably because it seems the norm to you, but there absolutely is a political agenda weaved into SoD.

 

You can't really say that the game is disliked because of "leftist propaganda" and  "a political agenda" while saying it's full of changes from a progressive PoV and then claim that anti-SJW wasn't a leading force in the backlash against the game. That literally makes no sense at all.

 

And by the way, being a trans person doesn't make them any less a random person from the Internet. For one thing, transgendered individuals aren't a homogeneous group; for another, this person wasn't elected to represent their demographic or anything. They only represent themselves and their opinions; you just pulled a random persons quote about the game off the Internet because it supports what you are saying about the backlash against the game. I did the same; the person I quoted *also* only represents their own opinion.

 

We each have random every-day people who are not experts and have no greater authority to speak for others but who do back up our positions. So....yay.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Katarack21

[Bionick]

[Celan]

I think the OP has some valid points, but maybe not framing them well. The issue in the character writing for me is that they're pulled into rigid tropes by having to artificially fit into the disposition system.

 

Incidentally, the Xoti "little girl in a woman's body" model is familiar from other games, though I had always assumed this was written for straight men.

 

Writing female characters is hard, because you're always damned if you do or don't. As far as the rulers go, I assumed that the Huana were matriarchal, as the Hawaiian culture largely was?? If so, the dominance of female rulers is deliberate though not because of SJWism.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Celan

[Tagaziel]

Incidentally, the Xoti "little girl in a woman's body" model is familiar from other games, though I had always assumed this was written for straight men.

Can someone please explain to this cat where in hell do they get that impression from? Because from where I'm standing, outside her accent, Xoti is a mature woman with an impossible task placed on her shoulders. Maybe it's the sense of humor?

[Yosharian]

You can't really say that the game is disliked because of "leftist propaganda" and  "a political agenda" while saying it's full of changes from a progressive PoV and then claim that anti-SJW wasn't a leading force in the backlash against the game. That literally makes no sense at all.

And by the way, being a trans person doesn't make them any less a random person from the Internet. For one thing, transgendered individuals aren't a homogeneous group; for another, this person wasn't elected to represent their demographic or anything. They only represent themselves and their opinions; you just pulled a random persons quote about the game off the Internet because it supports what you are saying about the backlash against the game. I did the same; the person I quoted *also* only represents their own opinion.

 

We each have random every-day people who are not experts and have no greater authority to speak for others but who do back up our positions. So....yay.

 

 

> can't really say that the game is disliked because of "leftist propaganda" and  "a political agenda" 

 

> while saying it's full of changes from a progressive PoV

 

> then claim that anti-SJW wasn't a leading force in the backlash against the game.

 

> That literally makes no sense at all.

 

Yes I agree, what you wrote makes no sense at all.  I've read it three times and I still don't get the point you're trying to make.

 

> being a trans person doesn't make them any less a random person from the Internet.

 

It makes them an important voice on the subject considering that the topic being discussed is trans inclusion.

 

>  transgendered individuals aren't a homogeneous group

 

Do you think what that person says, about just wanting to blend in and not broadcasting the fact that they're trans, is an uncommon point of view among trans people?

 

> this person wasn't elected to represent their demographic or anything

 

The writer wasn't elected to represent the demographic either, but that didn't stop them from attempting to portray a trans character successfully, and, from an objective point of view, failing miserably.

 

> you just pulled a random persons quote about the game off the Internet because it supports what you are saying about the backlash against the game

 

They're trans.

 

> We each have random every-day people who are not experts and have no greater authority to speak for others but who do back up our positions. So....yay.

 

The difference is, I responded to the arguments contained in your 'random every day' person's quote.  You ignored the ones in mine.

 

I'll say it once more, I only posted the quote as evidence of what one trans person thought of Mizhena, nothing more, nothing else.  Anything else is just other people putting words in my mouth.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Yosharian

[M4xw0lf]

Oh come on, not another one of these.

Is the codex full up so you have to take this bs here or what?

[PizzaSHARK]

 

 

 

Which is clearly incorrect, because "soul power" explains how... muscle fibers are more dense or whatever practical application of it you'd like to use.  I didn't get the guidebook backer tier, so there's clearly stuff that I don't know because it's not explained anywhere in-game.

 

Does it explain how "soul power" can violate the laws of physics?  Or does it explain that Eora's physical laws are substantially different from our own, despite the setting being presented in a way that makes it appear to be pretty similar to our own aside from obvious things like souls?

 

What's so hard to believe that men and women are physically the same despite looking different in a world where you can summon a big ass dragon out of no where just by singing songs?

 

Real world physics rules was never important in any fantasy world, otherwise it won't be called fantasy.

 

 

Actually, even with soul power being the explanation for all the overtly supernatual abilities of characters in Eora, women would still be less physically capable than men because their bodies are smaller and limbs shorter - assuming you have, like, a male Nappa and a female Nappa, their power level being the same doesn't matter.  The male Nappa has longer limbs and can therefore exert more total force (due to leverage given via the longer limbs) than the female Nappa even though they both have... what was Nappa's power level, again?  There's literally no way you can explain this away in fluff without explicitly stating that Eora does not have the same physical laws as the real world does, because at least as far as physical feats go (moving really fast, being really strong, etc) it's quite clear that they still operate on real-world physical principles.  Maybe the guidebook goes into this, I don't have it.  I'd think that fundamental differences in physics in the real world and Eora would bear mentioning in-game, though.

 

Admittedly this is splitting hairs, but I hope it serves to illustrate the point - you can't have sexual dimorphism and say that the physical capabilities of the smaller creature are equal to the physical capabilities of the larger creature, assuming all other variables are equal (they both have a power level of 9000, etc.)

 

Not this s...stuff again.

 

In general I've found that any time someone uses the acronym "SJW" in a non-ironic way there is a 97.3% that everything they say can be safely ignored.  This rule of thumb has served my blood pressure well.  Unfortunately if everyone were to follow this rule it means that a bunch of misogynstic, transphobic, homophobic garbage would go unrebutted.  So I salute you folks who have the patience to engage.  Ad astra per aspera!

 

 

SJW went from being a mark of pride to being a derogatory term not just because of Gamergate, but because a minority of people using that term to describe themselves had a tendency to take things a little too far.  It's essentially the left-leaning version of the alt-right phenomenon and kind of ties into the horseshoe concept, since these descriptors are generally political as much as they are ethical (you probably won't see proto-fascists in left-leaning political circles, and an SJW would probably find themselves ostracized in a far-right political group, etc.)

 

 

> you can't have sexual dimorphism and say that the physical capabilities of the smaller creature are equal to the physical capabilities of the larger creature, assuming all other variables are equal

 

You can if you don't think it's really crucial to have, for example, a strength malus to females and a bonus to males, in your game.

 

If it serves some gameplay purpose that isn't irrelevant or trivial, or if it plays an important part of immersion or some other role-playing aspect, then it could be more important.

 

But to say that you can't have sexually dimorphic species while simultaneously having no difference mechanically between males and females....

 

Why can't you?  What harm does it cause?

 

Personally I would consider it absolutely fine for males and females to have different attribute penalties/bonuses, but I don't see it as being so important that it's going to affect my enjoyment of the game, in the same way as it doesn't really bother me that the game doesn't have realistic bacterial infection mechanics, as per the example I gave earlier in the thread.

 

It's just not that important to the game.  It doesn't enrich the game to have these male/female differences.

 

 

I'm not recommending there be gameplay differences, because it's just fluff and not even IMPORTANT fluff.  There's a reason -4 Str has become a meme that's generally used as an aesop for game designers dumb or crazy enough to want to make genders arbitrarily different in crunch because reasons.

 

I'm just pointing out that even if we say actual muscle size doesn't matter because Eora operates on an esoteric/supernatural soul power concept, that doesn't mean that limb length etc isn't relevant and I haven't seen anything in-game or quoted from an Obsidian source (guidebook, interviews, etc) that indicates that soul power or radically different physical laws account for that discrepancy.

 

 

also bulk doesn't necessarily translate to muscle. though it looks like someone already beat me to that point. *sigh*

 

In real world terms, muscle strength is directly correlated with muscle size - the literal length of muscle fibers, the density of those fibers, etc.  In terms of other settings, it's why dwarves either have a Strength bonus compared to humans, or why they're able to ignore the weight of armor that slows humans down (basically "they're strong for their size" in a different gameplay representation.)

 

That doesn't necessarily matter in Eora because of the soul power concept, but it does make me wonder why Dwarves and Amaua are apparently much stronger-willed (or however "soul power" is represented) than the other kith races, and why Orlans are weaker-willed while simultaneously stronger-willed compared to other kith.  Shortest answer is that they probably shouldn't have even had Might as a stat, or gone to great lengths to ensure that people understood the Might attribute has **** all to do with physical strength (even though in interactions it's virtually only ever used as raw physical strength...)

[Murp]

I think the OP has some valid points, but maybe not framing them well. The issue in the character writing for me is that they're pulled into rigid tropes by having to artificially fit into the disposition system.

 

Incidentally, the Xoti "little girl in a woman's body" model is familiar from other games, though I had always assumed this was written for straight men.

 

Writing female characters is hard, because you're always damned if you do or don't. As far as the rulers go, I assumed that the Huana were matriarchal, as the Hawaiian culture largely was?? If so, the dominance of female rulers is deliberate though not because of SJWism.

 

Xoti is young though. Early twenties maybe?

[Yosharian]

I mean, it's right there if you google it up. It's on Wikipedia for Christ's sake. If you want to assume the issue was not that people were screaming "SJW agenda" at the game, be my guest, but all proof points to it being the case (in its majority). Meanwhile, I think the lecturing is a byproduct of terrible writing, but I don't see it as the deliberate intention, nor do I think it's anywhere in the vicinity of wrongness that the example you posted is even if it were the intention behind it. Context is important, and in this case, it's this bloody line. It really doesn't deserve this discussion, less so this much time after the fact.

Wikipedia is a biased resource.

[Yosharian]

Incidentally, the Xoti "little girl in a woman's body" model is familiar from other games, though I had always assumed this was written for straight men.

That's just absurd.

[Katarack21]

 

You can't really say that the game is disliked because of "leftist propaganda" and  "a political agenda" while saying it's full of changes from a progressive PoV and then claim that anti-SJW wasn't a leading force in the backlash against the game. That literally makes no sense at all.

And by the way, being a trans person doesn't make them any less a random person from the Internet. For one thing, transgendered individuals aren't a homogeneous group; for another, this person wasn't elected to represent their demographic or anything. They only represent themselves and their opinions; you just pulled a random persons quote about the game off the Internet because it supports what you are saying about the backlash against the game. I did the same; the person I quoted *also* only represents their own opinion.

 

We each have random every-day people who are not experts and have no greater authority to speak for others but who do back up our positions. So....yay.

 

 

> can't really say that the game is disliked because of "leftist propaganda" and  "a political agenda" 

 

> while saying it's full of changes from a progressive PoV

 

> then claim that anti-SJW wasn't a leading force in the backlash against the game.

 

> That literally makes no sense at all.

 

Yes I agree, what you wrote makes no sense at all.  I've read it three times and I still don't get the point you're trying to make.

 

> being a trans person doesn't make them any less a random person from the Internet.

 

It makes them an important voice on the subject considering that the topic being discussed is trans inclusion.

 

>  transgendered individuals aren't a homogeneous group

 

Do you think what that person says, about just wanting to blend in and not broadcasting the fact that they're trans, is an uncommon point of view among trans people?

 

> this person wasn't elected to represent their demographic or anything

 

The writer wasn't elected to represent the demographic either, but that didn't stop them from attempting to portray a trans character successfully, and, from an objective point of view, failing miserably.

 

> you just pulled a random persons quote about the game off the Internet because it supports what you are saying about the backlash against the game

 

They're trans.

 

> We each have random every-day people who are not experts and have no greater authority to speak for others but who do back up our positions. So....yay.

 

The difference is, I responded to the arguments contained in your 'random every day' person's quote.  You ignored the ones in mine.

 

I'll say it once more, I only posted the quote as evidence of what one trans person thought of Mizhena, nothing more, nothing else.  Anything else is just other people putting words in my mouth.

 

1) The point is that you just confirmed that it is in fact anti-SJW agenda that is backlashing against the game; you said *yourself* that it is when you identified all the components of such, those being "leftist propaganda", a "political agenda", and "changes from a progressive PoV".

 

2) It makes them *a* voice on the subject; it makes them a voice that is directly *affected* by the topic with some personal and subjective understanding of how it will affect them personally. That's all. It doesn't make them an expert, it doesn't make their opinion more or less right, and it doesn't make them an authority. It just makes them somebody who is directly affected by the subject at hand. That's all. All their actually doing is giving their single, individual opinion about a game.

 

3) I think it's *their* view about *their* experience of *their* life and can't be extrapolated to anybody else, because they don't have the authority to speak for anybody else. For what it's worth, my friend Isabella--who used to be Al--once held their vaginal expander unit above their head in a crowded airport and yelled out "THIS IS MY VAGINAL EXPANDING MEDICAL DEVICE MOTHER****ERS!". I did not extrapolate that to an authoritative statement that can be applied to other transgendered people, either. Much like everybody else, a transgendered person's opinion is simply their opinion, and has no meaning beyond that. You can't make the assumption that somebody does or does not want to "blend in" or "broadcast the fact that their trans". Because of the safety issue, it's best to default to "don't say ****", but unless they've communicated to you personally what their desires are *you don't actually know* and you can't assume that you do just because some other transgendered person that you talked to online said something.

 

4) The writer was *hired to write a character* and then *wrote the character how they wanted*. I don't really know why you decided to throw that in their, though, as it doesn't actually make a point of any sort.

 

5) Yeah. I get that their transgendered. I also get the feeling that you think that somehow makes them an expert on everything related to transgendered affairs and means that their opinion about anything involving transgendered characters--including fictional ones--is automatically more knowledgeable, more important, more authoritative, and should be given greater weight just because their transgendered, even though it is literally just their opinion and their opinion alone.