Some clarification on chanters/phrases

[Nemesis7884]

A lot of phrases are 6 seconds duration, 3 seconds linger, 10 seconds effects

 

I am not sure i fully understand how this works in practice

 

for example does that mean that when i use the phrase once i get a duration of 6+3 = 9 seconds so connecting 2 phrases means 3 secons "downtime" between them, or does it mean that i get a duration of 6+3+10 seconds because at the very end of the 3rd second lingering it will still apply the 10 secons lasting effect again (i think it's not that)...but how does this "lasts for 10 seconds" that most phrases have play into the calculation?

[Climhazzard]

Phrase 2 will start after 6 seconds, during that time you'll still receive the benefits of phrase 1 for 3 seconds.  In other words linger is the amount of time they overlap if you use more than one phrase.  A troubadour with around 20 intelligence will be able to overlap 2 with no gaps.

[Nemesis7884]

But what does this for 10 seconds mean in the phrase description? If it has no meaning, why is it there?

[Alhoon]

But what does this for 10 seconds mean in the phrase description? If it has no meaning, why is it there?

It doesn't mean anything. Welcome to Pillars of Eternity, where mechanic descriptions are wrong more times they are right. This is in no way limited to Chanter chants.

[Lokithecat]

Duration is how long the effect stays, when your linger wears off.  If you check a troubadour, who has the modal for 'no linger' turned on, you still have the effect for the duration.  That said, the modal also screws with the duration, which isn't in the troubadour class description thing.

 

i.e the lvl 1 raw damage starts with a 6 duration, and a 3 linger; if you turn the modal on, it becomes 3 duration, 0 linger.  If you watch your buffs while its on, it keeps bouncing down from 3 seconds.

[omgFIREBALLS]

Duration is how long the effect stays, when your linger wears off.  If you check a troubadour, who has the modal for 'no linger' turned on, you still have the effect for the duration.  That said, the modal also screws with the duration, which isn't in the troubadour class description thing.

It actually says phrases elapse faster. The in-game behavior is the most reasonable one in my eyes. Else the modal would just mean you have the same uptime as without it, you just generate phrases twice as fast. It's a no-brainer to use at early levels when you only know one chant, anyway.

 

Climhazzard is right, a 20 int troub can have pretty much 100% uptime on two chants. And yeah the 10 seconds don't mean anything.

[Nemesis7884]

 

But what does this for 10 seconds mean in the phrase description? If it has no meaning, why is it there?

It doesn't mean anything. Welcome to Pillars of Eternity, where mechanic descriptions are wrong more times they are right. This is in no way limited to Chanter chants.

I assumed its 6 plus 3 but this 10 seconds duration is incredibly confusing and unecessary, why even write it in most phrases? Someone gad to write it down and think of SOMETHING

[fced]

  

On 5/23/2018 at 10:41 AM, Lokithecat said:

Duration is how long the effect stays, when your linger wears off.  If you check a troubadour, who has the modal for 'no linger' turned on, you still have the effect for the duration.  That said, the modal also screws with the duration, which isn't in the troubadour class description thing.

 

i.e the lvl 1 raw damage starts with a 6 duration, and a 3 linger; if you turn the modal on, it becomes 3 duration, 0 linger.  If you watch your buffs while its on, it keeps bouncing down from 3 seconds.

Does this mean in turn mode, if a chanter spell cost = 6 phrases, you have to wait without using spells during 6 turn to launch this spell (for a chanter without subclass)?

I never played with Kana in POE because all the fights were finished before he launch a spell (normal and hard mode), and today i am trying Konstanten (skald) as chanter. His stats aren't really good for Barbarian or chanter but it is for me the occasion to see what a chanter can do in fight (i am playing in Hard mode as cipher).

I have absolutely no idea about which spells and phrases to get, and how this is working, it will be a complete discovery.

If you have any advices about spells and phrases i would appreciate (I am Lv 20)....

Edited March 24, 2020 by fced

[Kaylon]

11 hours ago, fced said:

  

Does this mean in turn mode, if a chanter spell cost = 6 phrases, you have to wait without using spells during 6 turn to launch this spell (for a chanter without subclass)?

I never played with Kana in POE because all the fights were finished before he launch a spell (normal and hard mode), and today i am trying Konstanten (skald) as chanter. His stats aren't really good for Barbarian or chanter but it is for me the occasion to see what a chanter can do in fight (i am playing in Hard mode as cipher).

I have absolutely no idea about which spells and phrases to get, and how this is working, it will be a complete discovery.

If you have any advices about spells and phrases i would appreciate (I am Lv 20)....

Unless you're a skald or a troubadour you can forget about offensive invocations because they take long time to recharge. For the common chanter the most efficient invocations are the buffs and the summons (only animated weapons are worth at high levels because they're the only summon scaling with your level) which usually last until you get your phrases back. For chants the best are Ancient Memory  (strong passive healing), Aefyllath... (very strong if if your main damage comes from weapons), Old Siec... (works great if you have a party with lots of AoE dmg or a bloodmage),  Her Courage... (for more tankiness), etc - these should be your main options depending on your party.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Kaylon

[fced]

 

2 hours ago, Kaylon said:

Unless you're a skald or a troubadour you can forget about offensive invocations because they take long time to recharge. For the common chanter the most efficient invocation are the buffs and the summons (only animated weapons are worth at high levels because they're the only summon scaling with your level) which usually last until you get your phrases back. For phrases the best are Ancient Memory  (strong passive healing), Aefyllath... (very strong if if your main damage comes from weapons), Old Siec... (works great if you have a party with lots of AoE dmg or a bloodmage),  Her Courage... (for more tankiness), etc - these should be your main options depending on your party.

I am in hard mode and i just have finished Nemnok and all his minions as Cipher with Eder (fighter), Konstanten (chanter skald), Tekehu (druid), Serafen (barbarian), and it was done surprisingly well, Konstanten summoned high dragon, i dominated the two Eotans, it was not so easy in my first game as wizard in normal mode...
I will reset Konstanten to add the abilities you advised (i only took the base ability +4 heal+4 raw damage and +50% healing).
I could be wrong but i have notified, a phrase = 1 enemy/ally/self turn, and the chanter keep its phrases in memory after the fight, so if a new fight occur, he may have several phrases ready.

Eld Nary's Curse Spread Through Their Midst is awesome

Edited March 25, 2020 by fced

[Boeroer]

But... Konstanten *is* a skald, so what Kaylon said about non-offensive chants doesn't apply to Konstanten:

2 hours ago, Kaylon said:

Unless you're a skald or a troubadour[...]

I also think it doesn't apply to Bellower either since the invocations that profit from PL most are the offensive ones that deal damage.

 

[fced]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

But... Konstanten *is* a skald, so what Kaylon said about non-offensive chants doesn't apply to Konstanten:

I also think it doesn't apply to Bellower either since the invocations that profit from PL most are the offensive ones that deal damage.

 

Kaylon probably answered this because i asked some help with chanter in general..
On POE i never got Kana in the team, except to do his quest (and after i cleaned every single room under Caed Nua), and after two hour spent with Konstanten. I have really been agreeably surprised by the chanter during Nemnok fight.. (i took the two passives which increase spells speed).
My next character will probably be a chanter...

Edited March 25, 2020 by fced

[fced]

On 3/25/2020 at 10:03 AM, Kaylon said:

Unless you're a skald or a troubadour you can forget about offensive invocations because they take long time to recharge. For the common chanter the most efficient invocations are the buffs and the summons (only animated weapons are worth at high levels because they're the only summon scaling with your level) which usually last until you get your phrases back. For chants the best are Ancient Memory  (strong passive healing), Aefyllath... (very strong if if your main damage comes from weapons), Old Siec... (works great if you have a party with lots of AoE dmg or a bloodmage),  Her Courage... (for more tankiness), etc - these should be your main options depending on your party.

Wow, you were so right, i managed to get the animated weapons after the Vitrhaak used it against me in Forgotten sanctum, the Vitrhaak were so resistant i resetted Konstanten, and got them, i replaced ...And Sip form the Marrow by the animated weapons ... One of them even have Arcane Assault (one of my favorite wizard spells) ^
It is really sad the Ogre don't do same damages as they do...
 

[fced]

Is this normal the phrases area is only 4 meters (saw this on Konstanten) ? lesser than the Paladin aura (5 meters)? Considering healing depend on Might too, how much intelligence should I put in a chanter for his aura be efficient ?

Edited April 2, 2020 by fced

[Boeroer]

Chant's base AoE is a bit smaller.

About investment in INT: Depends on the phrase - and when it comes to support phrases: how tight your party usually positions itself when fighting. For example: if you are using an offensive phrase like Dragon Thrashed you might want it to have a bigger AoE than if you are using Ancient Memory.

If you usually fight in a close formation you can get away with a smaller AoE with support chants as well. 

Edited April 2, 2020 by Boeroer

[thelee]

14 hours ago, fced said:

Is this normal the phrases area is only 4 meters (saw this on Konstanten) ? lesser than the Paladin aura (5 meters)? Considering healing depend on Might too, how much intelligence should I put in a chanter for his aura be efficient ?

konstanten is a literally dumb character--i believe he has 10 or 9 intellect. this is obviously very bad for a chanter, but unfortunately that's what you're stuck with if you're using konstanten. pick up some rings of overseeing and intellect buffs (priest has several good ones). tekehu, vatnir, fassina, and even pallegina iirc can make for "better" chanters, though a skald is a pretty decent subclass and konstanten has the advantage that he and tekehu are the only ones that could theoretically single-class it [at least without rolling your own].

Edited April 2, 2020 by thelee

[janw]

On 3/25/2020 at 6:03 AM, Kaylon said:

Unless you're a skald or a troubadour you can forget about offensive invocations because they take long time to recharge. For the common chanter the most efficient invocations are the buffs and the summons (only animated weapons are worth at high levels because they're the only summon scaling with your level) which usually last until you get your phrases back. For chants the best are Ancient Memory  (strong passive healing), Aefyllath... (very strong if if your main damage comes from weapons), Old Siec... (works great if you have a party with lots of AoE dmg or a bloodmage),  Her Courage... (for more tankiness), etc - these should be your main options depending on your party.

Hi Kaylon, first off thanks for your help.

What do you mean offensive invocations take too long to recharge? Are you referring to them having a high phrases cost? Because there's low level low phrase cost offensive and defensive invocations, as well as high level high cost of both.

Why offensive wouldn't work but defensive ones would?

[Boeroer]

I'm not Kaylon but maybe I can answer this as well:

Because the defensive ones last a long time and their effects won't run out until you have gathered enough phrases for the next one. Usually you can uphold the effects of two buffing invocations in parallel.

Offensive invocations with debuffing/CC components last a lot shorter which means you will have quite some downtime between effects. Exception may be "The Shield Cracks" which prolongs itself with every hit the enemy takes (great in combo with party members who have multihit-abilities such as Chillfog, Walls, Wicked Briars, Beams and so on.

Compared to other nukers also damaging invocations have quite some downtime between them. Even a cheap 3-phrase invocation takes 18 secs to recharge (if not Skald or Troubadour). I mean without special gear. 

While I wouldn't agree that one should completely forget about those offensive invocations because of this issue it's surely something you should consider. Like not picking too many different offensive invocations since you will most likely not be able to use them all.

As stated, Skald and Troubadour are exceptions. The first one has several good offensive invocations for just 2 phrases (12 secs for two phrases) and can regain phrases via melee crits on top of that. And Troubadour, while having +1 cost per invocation (so 4 phrases for the cheap ones) can build phrases twice as fast with Brisk Recitation(12 secs for 4 phrases then).

Bellower might also be an exception, he can't dish out a lot of invocations in an encounter but the one he shouts after loading up can have a big impact (imo best combined with some abilities that you can use right away in battle while charging up). But also here: don't take too many. Same if you got Sasha's Singing Scimitar: empowered offensive invocations are great, bit don't spread your ability points too thin with different offensive invocations.

Kaylon may roast me now.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Boeroer

[thelee]

9 hours ago, Boeroer said:

While I wouldn't agree that one should completely forget about those offensive invocations because of this issue it's surely something you should consider.

Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with Kaylon at all on this. I'm not sure "uptime" is the right metric for offensive invocations at all. If you're into lots of min-max metagaming, maybe a typical chanter is going to be too slow to have much of an impact, but chanters themselves are ripe for min-max metagaming themselves, since opening with an empowered offensive nuke with sasha's singing scimitar and weyc's gear can frequently let you clear out many fights on your own (especially with a bellower).

Edited April 9, 2020 by thelee

[janw]

On 4/9/2020 at 2:26 AM, Boeroer said:

While I wouldn't agree that one should completely forget about those offensive invocations because of this issue it's surely something you should consider. Like not picking too many different offensive invocations since you will most likely not be able to use them all.

This.

 

Thank you.