Why are some weapon types just flat out horrible compared to others?

[Infiltrator_SF]

I'm looking at rapiers for example, and I can't understand how has it come to pass that these things exist in their current state? Their base damage is horrendous, and their penetration/accuracy bonuses don't even come close to making up for it.

I look at swords, 2 damage types, about 40-50% more damage, at the cost of, what? 1 penetration and 5 accuracy? I realize some weapons are more niche than others and not everything can be a power gamer choice, but come on, there's like half of the arsenal in deadfire that's just wasted space because their stats are so bad.

[SonicMage117]

As expected. Same thing happened in The Witcher 3 and Borderlands 2...

 

When you have as many weapons as such, some will feel underwhelming :/

 

Sorry about that.

[Nokturnal Lex]

As expected. Same thing happened in The Witcher 3 and Borderlands 2...

 

Why have so many weapons when so many feel underwhelming? :/

 

 

Yea I don't understand how balance can't be maintained. You just pick a reason for each weapon to exist. Instead of flooding the loot table with a bunch of useless items you should make each weapon good at something.

 

Like most 2h's should have increased range and deal damage in small aoes and the ones that don't should have multiple damage types or be defensive weapons, for instance all Quarterstaves should give high deflection as it's incredibly easy to use those to block. Also gives mages a practical reason to use quarterstaves.

 

When it comes to 1hs, lets take Dagger, Stiletto and Rapier for instance, rapier should give great deflection bonuses (For rogue tanking), stiletto should do high pierce and penetration and dagger should do slash/pierce but low penetration. Simple.

 

Make maces armor crushers (Incredibly high penetration, but low base damage), swords should be jack of all trades master of none dealing slash and pierce, axes should have high slash damage and penetration but only do slash damage. 1h Spears should have increased range to poke from behind the front line.

 

Far as guns, pretty sure the blunderbuss should deal some crushing damage. Pistols and Arquebus are pretty much fine as they are. 

 

There ya go, balanced the weapons for ya. But also you gotta ensure the loot table has multiple magic weapons you can find in each category. Like there's currently way too many swords and only 1 magic battle axe.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Nokturnal Lex

[mazeltov]

They're just covering the bases. Ultimately player weapon choice comes down to what the good uniques are, not which modals are marginally better or which weapon gets +5 Acc. Hey, at least a relevant weapon type for the setting like the Arquebus got a decent modal and decent unique. I consider that a stroke of luck.

 

Incidentally the soulbound weapon my tank was using got taken away by a quest, and when I stuck another weapon type on her her performance basically stayed the same. Part of that was due to the fact that weapons hardly matter for tanks, but another part was due to the fact that quality upgrades, gear amps, and abilities matter a lot more to performance than any inherent properties of the weapons characters use. Certain edge case builds excepted, of course.

[Katarack21]

Like most 2h's should have increased range and deal damage in small aoes and the ones that don't should have multiple damage types or be defensive weapons, for instance all Quarterstaves should give high deflection as it's incredibly easy to use those to block.

Melee AoE is the Barbarian specialty. Congratulations, you just ****ed an entire class.

[Elerond]

Rapier also have lower attack and recovery time compared to swords

 

Rapier's base attack time is 0.5 s where sword is 0.7 s and rapier's base recovery time is 3.0 s where sword has 4.0 s.

 

So rapiers are faster weapons than swords but I think that regardless of that fact in most scenarios they still have lower dps than swords.

[Nokturnal Lex]

 

Like most 2h's should have increased range and deal damage in small aoes and the ones that don't should have multiple damage types or be defensive weapons, for instance all Quarterstaves should give high deflection as it's incredibly easy to use those to block.

Melee AoE is the Barbarian specialty. Congratulations, you just ****ed an entire class.

 

 

Barbarians aren't just melee aoe though, their shouts are aoe silences and their fury gives them attack damage steroids. 

 

BTW there already is a 2h weapon in the game that does AoE damage and it doesn't make barbarians pointless. 

Edited May 22, 2018 by Nokturnal Lex

[Katarack21]

 

 

Like most 2h's should have increased range and deal damage in small aoes and the ones that don't should have multiple damage types or be defensive weapons, for instance all Quarterstaves should give high deflection as it's incredibly easy to use those to block.

Melee AoE is the Barbarian specialty. Congratulations, you just ****ed an entire class.

 

 

Barbarians aren't just melee aoe though, their shouts are aoe silences and their fury gives them attack damage steroids. 

 

BTW there already is a 2h weapon in the game that does AoE damage and it doesn't make barbarians pointless. But way to strawman argument.

 

That's one weapon. Not, you know, *most two-handed weapons in the game*. One is an exception that provides further options, like the leap boots. The other is usurping a class specialty so that anybody can have it.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Katarack21

[Crucis]

Regarding rapiers specifically, I don't see why they're even a weapon type used in this game.  They don't seem to be at all compatible with an era where heavier weapons are common.  Rapiers seem more like a weapon of nobility for a different era than an era where you have warriors using much heavier swords, maces, and all those 2H weapons.

 

Regarding quarter staffs, I don't like that they're reach weapons in the first place.  To me, they should not be a reach weapon at all, but should be a fast 2H weapon.  Unlike all other 2H weapons where you hold the weapon at one end and their weight makes them slow to swing, a Qstaff is held in roughly the middle of the staff, and is probably a good deal less heavy, and much more agile of a 2H weapon.  I do like the Qstaff's special ability to be used defensively (i.e. bonus to deflection).

 

Something else.  I don't know if others have noticed this, but I'm almost never running across any Estocs.  And I'm not just talking about named Estocs.  I'm talking about your average ones as well.  It's like no one in the Deadfire is using them.  They may be available in the stores, but they're pretty much non-existent as dropped swag.

[Nokturnal Lex]

That's one weapon. Not, you know, *most two-handed weapons in the game*. One is an exception that provides further options, like the leap boots. The other is usurping a class specialty so that anybody can have it.

 

 

Your argument is that barbarians would be pointless without AoE damage. When their AoE dmg is mostly a gimmick than a necessary ability, but like I said, small AoE, balance could be maintained by having barbarians have a larger aoe that could even stack with 2h weapons making their AoEs bigger when using bigger weapons.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

The accuracy bonus from rapiers is a pretty big deal actually. Rapiers were one of the more popular weapon choices during the beta. 

 

 

see:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gsz3Hd_3HPs6RtE5YFTfSUzcPNRUY2h9yy733Jp5_50/edit?usp=sharing

 

Thats' beta data but I don't think it changed since release.

 

DPS wise rapiers are at the very top, only beaten by sabers who have a 10% damage bonus, but mathematically their accuracy bonus probably gives a bigger dps boost vs most targets.

 

Penetration is a little under-valued right now because it was too strong in beta so they made armor values a little easier to penetrate across the board, but it's still useful. Basically every weapon has either high DPS or high Pen, and then "something extra", like reach or accuracy or an extra damage type.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Nokturnal Lex]

 

DPS wise rapiers are at the very top, only beaten by sabers who have a 10% damage bonus, but mathematically their accuracy bonus probably gives a bigger dps boost vs most targets.

rmor values a little easier to penetrate across the board, but it's still useful. Basically every weapon has either high DPS or high Pen, and then "something extra", like reach or accuracy or an extra damage type.

Penetration is a little under-valued right now because it was too strong in beta so they made a

From what I've noticed while playing is that there's a huge amount of enemies with incredibly high pierce DR. Making most piercing only weapons obsolete in certain scenarios, where as weapons with multiple damage types really shine thanks to their ability to convert their damage into whatever works best. Like skeletons are immune to all piercing damage in this game. (Which wasn't the case in the first game, pierce just did less damage)

Edited May 22, 2018 by Nokturnal Lex

[Yonjuro]

 

....

Regarding quarter staffs, I don't like that they're reach weapons in the first place.  To me, they should not be a reach weapon at all, but should be a fast 2H weapon.  Unlike all other 2H weapons where you hold the weapon at one end and their weight makes them slow to swing, a Qstaff is held in roughly the middle of the staff, and is probably a good deal less heavy, and much more agile of a 2H weapon.  I do like the Qstaff's special ability to be used defensively (i.e. bonus to deflection).

 

 

 In a lot of traditional staff fighting styles, you don't hold it in the middle specifically to take advantage of the length of the staff. In the PoE universe they went with that style rather than the one that you are thinking of (often done with a tapered staff for speed which limits the ability to change grips). Neither style is incorrect, per se.

[Katarack21]

 

 

DPS wise rapiers are at the very top, only beaten by sabers who have a 10% damage bonus, but mathematically their accuracy bonus probably gives a bigger dps boost vs most targets.

rmor values a little easier to penetrate across the board, but it's still useful. Basically every weapon has either high DPS or high Pen, and then "something extra", like reach or accuracy or an extra damage type.

Penetration is a little under-valued right now because it was too strong in beta so they made a

From what I've noticed while playing is that there's a huge amount of enemies with incredibly high pierce DR. Making most piercing only weapons obsolete in certain scenarios, where as weapons with multiple damage types really shine thanks to their ability to convert their damage into whatever works best. Like skeletons are immune to all piercing damage in this game. (Which wasn't the case in the first game, pierce just did less damage)

 

 

That's accurate as hell. My bow-based rogue/cipher eventually had to add a scepter to his arsenal just to deal with the damn skeletons.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

From what I've noticed while playing is that there's a huge amount of enemies with incredibly high pierce DR. Making most piercing only weapons obsolete in certain scenarios, where as weapons with multiple damage types really shine thanks to their ability to convert their damage into whatever works best. Like skeletons are immune to all piercing damage in this game. (Which wasn't the case in the first game, pierce just did less damage)

 

 

 

Yeah, in this game having at least two damage types is a functional requirement. My ciphers generally take Arms Bearer for the extra weapon slot, and every party member generally carries one slash or pierce/slash weapon and one crush or crush/pierce weapon. Xoti gets the magic club, Eder gets a warhammer to match his saber, etc. 

 

Most of the highest-damage weapons  are either piercing or piercing/X type so this is probably a deliberate design choice. Overall I think it means quarterstaves are probably at the overall top of the utility meter because they have high DPS but do Crushing damage. Same was theoretically true in the first game (Llawran's Stick was a far better weapon than anyone ever admitted) but nobody cared as much.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Icesong]

Regarding rapiers specifically, I don't see why they're even a weapon type used in this game.  They don't seem to be at all compatible with an era where heavier weapons are common.  Rapiers seem more like a weapon of nobility for a different era than an era where you have warriors using much heavier swords, maces, and all those 2H weapons.

 

I was under the impression that rapiers are as heavy or heavier than any other 1H sword, and even 2H swords.

[Elerond]

Regarding rapiers specifically, I don't see why they're even a weapon type used in this game.  They don't seem to be at all compatible with an era where heavier weapons are common.  Rapiers seem more like a weapon of nobility for a different era than an era where you have warriors using much heavier swords, maces, and all those 2H weapons.

 

Regarding quarter staffs, I don't like that they're reach weapons in the first place.  To me, they should not be a reach weapon at all, but should be a fast 2H weapon.  Unlike all other 2H weapons where you hold the weapon at one end and their weight makes them slow to swing, a Qstaff is held in roughly the middle of the staff, and is probably a good deal less heavy, and much more agile of a 2H weapon.  I do like the Qstaff's special ability to be used defensively (i.e. bonus to deflection).

 

Something else.  I don't know if others have noticed this, but I'm almost never running across any Estocs.  And I'm not just talking about named Estocs.  I'm talking about your average ones as well.  It's like no one in the Deadfire is using them.  They may be available in the stores, but they're pretty much non-existent as dropped swag.

 

All the weapons in PoE were common sights during Age of Discovery (1400s to 1700s)  which is time period that PoE imitates.

 

Rapiers for example appeared in 1500s and sabres in 1600s.

Arquebuses and blackpowder pistols appeared in 1400s

 

Although Clubs and Quarterstaves were seen only outside of battlefields.

 

In classic staff fighting thrust are much more common than swings, because they are faster and have longer reach. And they also hurt quite lot when you hit unarmored opponet.

[CAlmond]

 

 

DPS wise rapiers are at the very top, only beaten by sabers who have a 10% damage bonus, but mathematically their accuracy bonus probably gives a bigger dps boost vs most targets.

rmor values a little easier to penetrate across the board, but it's still useful. Basically every weapon has either high DPS or high Pen, and then "something extra", like reach or accuracy or an extra damage type.

Penetration is a little under-valued right now because it was too strong in beta so they made a

From what I've noticed while playing is that there's a huge amount of enemies with incredibly high pierce DR. Making most piercing only weapons obsolete in certain scenarios, where as weapons with multiple damage types really shine thanks to their ability to convert their damage into whatever works best. Like skeletons are immune to all piercing damage in this game. (Which wasn't the case in the first game, pierce just did less damage)

 

 

skeletons are immune to piercing? I'm fairly sure I can one shot skeletons with a plain arquebus in the first island. I don't normally delve too deep into game mechanics, but I thought arquebus does piercing damage?

[Boeroer]

Rapiers, daggers and so on have lower base damage because they are a lot faster. Swords can't compete with the dps (damage per second) of a rapier IF you don't face enemies with high pierce AR (or immunity). So: swords = more versatility, rapiers = higher dps against foes that are not resistant to pierce.

 

Dps wise all weapons are pretty well balanced. Some are better for auto-attacks and others better for Full Attacks and so on. But on average they are all pretty close.

 

Besides that I will not engage in a fruitless discussion about (maybe ill-perceived) realism in a fantasy game. Rapiers are there and they are ok. Also the unique ones are ok.

 

What bothers me most about the weapons types is that some get a ton of uniques and others one or two. That's the real shame - the base values are ok. The modals are also a bit "ehh?" in some cases...

Edited May 22, 2018 by Boeroer

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

DPS wise rapiers are at the very top, only beaten by sabers who have a 10% damage bonus, but mathematically their accuracy bonus probably gives a bigger dps boost vs most targets.

rmor values a little easier to penetrate across the board, but it's still useful. Basically every weapon has either high DPS or high Pen, and then "something extra", like reach or accuracy or an extra damage type.

Penetration is a little under-valued right now because it was too strong in beta so they made a

From what I've noticed while playing is that there's a huge amount of enemies with incredibly high pierce DR. Making most piercing only weapons obsolete in certain scenarios, where as weapons with multiple damage types really shine thanks to their ability to convert their damage into whatever works best. Like skeletons are immune to all piercing damage in this game. (Which wasn't the case in the first game, pierce just did less damage)

 

 

skeletons are immune to piercing? I'm fairly sure I can one shot skeletons with a plain arquebus in the first island. I don't normally delve too deep into game mechanics, but I thought arquebus does piercing damage?

 

 

Some skeletons are immune to piercing. Other enemies with skeleton in their names are not.

[JerekKruger]

 

Regarding rapiers specifically, I don't see why they're even a weapon type used in this game.  They don't seem to be at all compatible with an era where heavier weapons are common.  Rapiers seem more like a weapon of nobility for a different era than an era where you have warriors using much heavier swords, maces, and all those 2H weapons.

 

I was under the impression that rapiers are as heavy or heavier than any other 1H sword, and even 2H swords.

 

Indeed, it's a myth that rapiers are a light nimble weapon suited to weaker but more dextrous fighters. They were typically slightly heavier than arming swords (the classic knightly one handed sword of the early/high middle ages) and their length made them harder to wield (due to weight distribution). In another of his videos Matt states that he thinks the heavier two-handed longsword is an easier weapon to learn for beginners who lack specific strength because it uses two hands.

[JerekKruger]

Some skeletons are immune to piercing. Other enemies with skeleton in their names are not.

 

Immunities in Deadfire are... inconsistent. Lesser Storm Blights are immune to Shock damage, which seems fair enough, but Greater Storm Blights merely have a high armour rating against Shock (12 in this case) which makes no sense.

[Erik Dirk]

Damage immunity does seem to need an overhaul. There's logic, but no consistency.

Also Crits should bypass immunity. Pretty sure a head shot should still damage a skeleton.

[Erik Dirk]

Damage immunity does seem to need an overhaul. There's logic, but no consistency.

Also Crits should bypass immunity. Pretty sure a head shot should still damage a skeleton.

[Stephen Unsworth-Mitchell]

Earlier examples 1500s had heavier blade but were still a cut and thrust weapon but could be used on battle field.

 

By 1600 they had become very light and thin blade and on its own was not a good weapon for battle field. If wanted use rapier from 1600s and later on battle field you needed to pair it with buckler or dagger which was used for parrying. Saber and sword would easily break a rapier from 1600/later hence most militaries had sabers. Rapeir is a dueling blade.