Extensive first thoughts after finishing Deadfire's first playthrough

[Aotrs Commander]

 

Don't like not being able to scroll up (or have the conversation log) during conversations, you can miss stuff. (Now, granted, that's not a thing in say, Witcher 3 (which I finished a couple of weeks ago),b ut I'm so used it in IE games, I feel the lack. (Also feel this has come up before in one of the more recent IE decedants too.) Minor niggle.

You can: click on the small diamond-ish shaped button at the top of the conversation window. The button is a bit unreliable and seems to be misaligned, so you'll have to click on the top part of it. 

 

 

You know, I thought that might be it, but I couldn't seem to click on it. Probably because of the aforementioned misalignment - I'll try next time I play. Thanks for that!

[Kragtor]

You didn't address SO MANY of the problems with this game, with one of the biggest ones in my eyes just being ignored by your post: Quest triggers and spoilers.

 

In game, if you complete Xoti's quest as early as possible the journal entry about it gives away the ENTIRE PLOT OF THE GAME. And you can complete her quest before ever going anywhere besides the starter island and Neketaka. So without ever stepping foot on the main story line, the entire plot is given away.

 

And then there are all the quest mis-triggers. I had one quest for a faction line; i completed one step of the quest and was told to go back to get the next part. Once I got on my boat, the quest triggered the win condition because, being an open world, I had already done the thing for the quest I didn't yet have. So, i got the end conversation/win dialogue for a quest I hadn't yet picked up.

 

And that's one example of the 3 I can think of off the top of my head.

 

This game is clearly still in beta. There are problems with quest triggers, relationships not working at all let alone being so rudimentary as to wonder why they bothered, the open world ruining the story driven aspect (they should have picked ONE, not tried to do both), many of the items not doing what they say, many of the systems not being clear....

 

This game is so close to being good, but it feels like they just got to a point and threw up their hands "Good enough!".

[Justin Bell]

Responding to music parts of the thread... Thanks for all the music feedback folks. Something we haven't really talked about is that the music is reactive in PoE2! It changes depending on whether or not you're sneaking, walking around, or are in a conversation/scripted interaction (the choose your own adventure parts). The idea was to keep it from sounding too static over time.

 

The music is constructed of 3 layers and is additive. Sneaking is just one layer, typically basses, harp, and some accompaniment, and you'll always hear that. Exploration is sneaking + a second layer that includes more accompaniment, countermelodies, and some melodic content. Conversations have all previous layers + another one that is primarily melodic. Transitions between layers aren't instantaneous, and generally only happen at the beginning of new musical phrases. I find it interesting to be able to focus on the different components of a given piece of music.

 

Sneak + explore + conversation is what you hear in the soundtrack, and can be considered the full piece of music. We recorded each section of the orchestra separately to allow for this. Not every track is reactive - combat music isn't - but many are. Even Twin Elms redux is reactive; we re-recorded it just so we can make it reactive!

[Multihog]

Responding to music parts of the thread... Thanks for all the music feedback folks. Something we haven't really talked about is that the music is reactive in PoE2! It changes depending on whether or not you're sneaking, walking around, or are in a conversation/scripted interaction (the choose your own adventure parts). The idea was to keep it from sounding too static over time.

 

The music is constructed of 3 layers and is additive. Sneaking is just one layer, typically basses, harp, and some accompaniment, and you'll always hear that. Exploration is sneaking + a second layer that includes more accompaniment, countermelodies, and some melodic content. Conversations have all previous layers + another one that is primarily melodic. Transitions between layers aren't instantaneous, and generally only happen at the beginning of new musical phrases. I find it interesting to be able to focus on the different components of a given piece of music.

 

Sneak + explore + conversation is what you hear in the soundtrack, and can be considered the full piece of music. We recorded each section of the orchestra separately to allow for this. Not every track is reactive - combat music isn't - but many are. Even Twin Elms redux is reactive; we re-recorded it just so we can make it reactive!

Ah, that's pretty cool. I didn't notice it at all, perhaps due to the transitions not being instantaneous nor stark. Then there's the fact that sneaking is usually only done for a short period at a time, so the sneaking variation of the music may not even have time to kick in. I appreciate detail like this, though. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Multihog

[Justin Bell]

Ah, that's pretty cool. I didn't notice it at all, perhaps due to the transitions not being instantaneous nor stark. Then there's the fact that sneaking is usually only done for a short period at a time, so the sneaking variation of the music may not even have time to kick in. I appreciate detail like this, though.

Thanks! If I couldn't make the transition somewhat hard to detect I just took it out. I found that entrances in the middle of phrases also sounded unnatural.

[Multihog]

 

Ah, that's pretty cool. I didn't notice it at all, perhaps due to the transitions not being instantaneous nor stark. Then there's the fact that sneaking is usually only done for a short period at a time, so the sneaking variation of the music may not even have time to kick in. I appreciate detail like this, though.

Thanks! If I couldn't make the transition somewhat hard to detect I just took it out. I found that entrances in the middle of phrases also sounded unnatural.

 

Yeah, it's not like it doesn't contribute anything even if it isn't something the player will consciously realize. 

 

I had no idea the soundtrack was done with a real orchestra. I was just thinking "man, these are some high-quality sample libraries he used" I'm really liking the exploration/town music; it works really great within the context of the game. Reminds me of some impressionist music at times. 

[Justin Bell]

 

 

Ah, that's pretty cool. I didn't notice it at all, perhaps due to the transitions not being instantaneous nor stark. Then there's the fact that sneaking is usually only done for a short period at a time, so the sneaking variation of the music may not even have time to kick in. I appreciate detail like this, though.

Thanks! If I couldn't make the transition somewhat hard to detect I just took it out. I found that entrances in the middle of phrases also sounded unnatural.

Yeah, it's not like it doesn't contribute anything even if it isn't something the player will consciously realize.

 

I had no idea the soundtrack was done with a real orchestra. I was just thinking "man, these are some high-quality sample libraries he used" I'm really liking the exploration/town music; it works really great within the context of the game. Reminds me of some impressionist music at times.

Impressionist music was definitely an indirect source of inspiration. Great ear! We recorded about 90 minutes of music with an orchestra, a total of about 36 hours of recording sessions. This was due to the fact that we recorded each section separately. There were hours and hours of overdubs, I think it was an arduous process for the musicians. We were capturing tons of micro performances rather than a total performance which had its challenges.

[SonicMage117]

Hundreds of things to nitpick, still, does that make it a good game? We are going to look like the bad guys here lol

[Multihog]

 

 

 

Ah, that's pretty cool. I didn't notice it at all, perhaps due to the transitions not being instantaneous nor stark. Then there's the fact that sneaking is usually only done for a short period at a time, so the sneaking variation of the music may not even have time to kick in. I appreciate detail like this, though.

Thanks! If I couldn't make the transition somewhat hard to detect I just took it out. I found that entrances in the middle of phrases also sounded unnatural.

Yeah, it's not like it doesn't contribute anything even if it isn't something the player will consciously realize.

 

I had no idea the soundtrack was done with a real orchestra. I was just thinking "man, these are some high-quality sample libraries he used" I'm really liking the exploration/town music; it works really great within the context of the game. Reminds me of some impressionist music at times.

Impressionist music was definitely an indirect source of inspiration. Great ear! We recorded about 90 minutes of music with an orchestra, a total of about 36 hours of recording sessions. This was due to the fact that we recorded each section separately. There were hours and hours of overdubs, I think it was an arduous process for the musicians. We were capturing tons of micro performances rather than a total performance which had its challenges.

 

I see. That probably gave more room for fine-tuning the mixing and production quality otherwise. The OST sounds well produced overall. 

 

In contrast, this to me sounds like something was probably recorded in one go without much fine-tuning, as it sounds much more raw than the PoE2 OST: 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Multihog

[Justin Bell]

Hundreds of things to nitpick, still, does that make it a good game? We are going to look like the bad guys here lol

Not at all, you're entitled to voice your observations. Some boil down to preference and are subjective, others are arguably objective. The former can be more difficult to address, if they're addressable at all. Just depends. But! Your feedback is valuable and you should feel free to express it.

[SonicMage117]

 

Hundreds of things to nitpick, still, does that make it a good game? We are going to look like the bad guys here lol

Not at all, you're entitled to voice your observations. Some boil down to preference and are subjective, others are arguably objective. The former can be more difficult to address, if they're addressable at all. Just depends. But! Your feedback is valuable and you should feel free to express it.

Good to know

 

With all the fanboyism and gurd-dogging, it's nice that we can be honest with ourselves. Normally, it's "If you don't like what we like, you're a troll" so I definitely appreciate peeps who can roll with the punches and respect one another.

 

As Elvis once said "A little less White Knighting, a little more intelligent conversation" this should be a rule for backers teehee

Edited May 17, 2018 by SonicMage117

[Justin Bell]

 

 

 

 

Ah, that's pretty cool. I didn't notice it at all, perhaps due to the transitions not being instantaneous nor stark. Then there's the fact that sneaking is usually only done for a short period at a time, so the sneaking variation of the music may not even have time to kick in. I appreciate detail like this, though.

Thanks! If I couldn't make the transition somewhat hard to detect I just took it out. I found that entrances in the middle of phrases also sounded unnatural.

Yeah, it's not like it doesn't contribute anything even if it isn't something the player will consciously realize.

 

I had no idea the soundtrack was done with a real orchestra. I was just thinking "man, these are some high-quality sample libraries he used" I'm really liking the exploration/town music; it works really great within the context of the game. Reminds me of some impressionist music at times.

Impressionist music was definitely an indirect source of inspiration. Great ear! We recorded about 90 minutes of music with an orchestra, a total of about 36 hours of recording sessions. This was due to the fact that we recorded each section separately. There were hours and hours of overdubs, I think it was an arduous process for the musicians. We were capturing tons of micro performances rather than a total performance which had its challenges.

I see. That probably gave more room for fine-tuning the mixing and production quality otherwise. The OST sounds well produced overall.

 

In contrast, this to me sounds like something was probably recorded in one go without much fine-tuning, as it sounds much more raw than the PoE2 OST: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnWHnDDkhlk

Yes it certainly did provide more ability to find tu e. Almost too much flexibility in a way; mixing all these disconnected elements took significantly more effort and time! The musicians weren't directly feeding off of one another, so you loose a bit of the ensemble "hive mind" that can create that musicianship performance magic. So there were some cases where interpretation of the same material across different sections differed enough to require a bit of massaging.

 

Whereas when recording in one go you get what you get, i.e. you have to accept what was recorded whether or not the result was intended. On the one hand it can be frustrating from a control perspective, on the other it can be a bit liberating

[Multihog]

 

 

Hundreds of things to nitpick, still, does that make it a good game? We are going to look like the bad guys here lol

Not at all, you're entitled to voice your observations. Some boil down to preference and are subjective, others are arguably objective. The former can be more difficult to address, if they're addressable at all. Just depends. But! Your feedback is valuable and you should feel free to express it.

Good to know

 

With all the fanboyism and gurd-dogging, it's nice that we can be honest with ourselves. Normally, it's "If you don't like what we like, you're a troll" so I definitely appreciate peeps who can roll with the punches and respect one another.

 

Yeah, I don't think PoE has that much fanboyism around it, though. People have been expressing their criticisms quite freely, without rabid fanboys jumping at their throats. Now, if you try to criticize The Witcher 3 (other than the combat), you'll often experience the verbal equivalent of being stoned to death. 

[Ryz009]

I like the white match combat music D:

 

I have to agree about deadfire's combat music being meh though. At least it wasn't offensive to the ear but it could've been much better.

[Justin Bell]

 

 

Hundreds of things to nitpick, still, does that make it a good game? We are going to look like the bad guys here lol

Not at all, you're entitled to voice your observations. Some boil down to preference and are subjective, others are arguably objective. The former can be more difficult to address, if they're addressable at all. Just depends. But! Your feedback is valuable and you should feel free to express it.

Good to know

 

With all the fanboyism and gurd-dogging, it's nice that we can be honest with ourselves. Normally, it's "If you don't like what we like, you're a troll" so I definitely appreciate peeps who can roll with the punches and respect one another.

 

As Elvis once said "A little less White Knighting, a little more intelligent conversation" this should be a rule for backers teehee

Well said! Everyone's opinion matters, and here you have a right to be heard as long as folks aren't being mean spirited. Disagreement doesn't equate to disrespect, if that makes sense. Even outright distastefull disrespect can be redirected, imo, but there is a line. Couldbe wrong but I haven't detected anything like that in this conversation tbh!

[Justin Bell]

 

 

 

Hundreds of things to nitpick, still, does that make it a good game? We are going to look like the bad guys here lol

Not at all, you're entitled to voice your observations. Some boil down to preference and are subjective, others are arguably objective. The former can be more difficult to address, if they're addressable at all. Just depends. But! Your feedback is valuable and you should feel free to express it.

Good to know

 

With all the fanboyism and gurd-dogging, it's nice that we can be honest with ourselves. Normally, it's "If you don't like what we like, you're a troll" so I definitely appreciate peeps who can roll with the punches and respect one another.

Yeah, I don't think PoE has that much fanboyism around it, though. People have been expressing their criticisms quite freely, without rabid fanboys jumping at their throats. Now, if you try to criticize The Witcher 3 (other than the combat), you'll often experience the verbal equivalent of being stoned to death.

Love witcher 3

[Justin Bell]

I like the white match combat music D:

 

I have to agree about deadfire's combat music being meh though. At least it wasn't offensive to the ear but it could've been much better.

Understood and fair. I was trying to address criticism from the first game that combat music was too in your face, too repetitive, too attention grabbing. It's a process, maybe next game will strike the right balance.

[Skazz]

I’d like to use this opportunity to say that I absolutely love the music in Neketaka! It makes me feel so... relaxed. Perfect for a hub.

 

Especially the Queen’s Berth track. Thank you for that piece.

[Ryz009]

 

I like the white match combat music D:

 

I have to agree about deadfire's combat music being meh though. At least it wasn't offensive to the ear but it could've been much better.

Understood and fair. I was trying to address criticism from the first game that combat music was too in your face, too repetitive, too attention grabbing. It's a process, maybe next game will strike the right balance.

 

 

The shanties were excellent though :D And yeah hopefully it'll be more balanced in the next games (or even in the dlcs if there's different music there).

Edited May 17, 2018 by Ryz009

[Justin Bell]

I’d like to use this opportunity to say that I absolutely love the music in Neketaka! It makes me feel so... relaxed. Perfect for a hub.

 

Especially the Queen’s Berth track. Thank you for that piece.

You are most welcome. Curious, how much time percentage wise are you spending in Neketaka?

[Justin Bell]

 

 

I like the white match combat music D:

 

I have to agree about deadfire's combat music being meh though. At least it wasn't offensive to the ear but it could've been much better.

Understood and fair. I was trying to address criticism from the first game that combat music was too in your face, too repetitive, too attention grabbing. It's a process, maybe next game will strike the right balance.

The shanties were excellent though :D And yeah hopefully it'll be more balanced in the next games (or even in the dlcs if there's different music there).

 

Thanks! We even got one of the singers who performed the Black Flag shanties to coordinate our effort His name is Nils Brown.

 

Even the shanties were a bit controversial though we knew folks would enjoy them. That's why we have the sea shanty option to disable them

[Multihog]

I like the white match combat music D:

 

I have to agree about deadfire's combat music being meh though. At least it wasn't offensive to the ear but it could've been much better.

As much as I like the non-combat music, I'll have to agree on this one.

 

The combat music sounds like it's a little bit subdued, afraid to go all out. To me, it seems like the idea was to have a sense of unity between the whole of the OST, so the combat music is kind of trying to stay in line with the non-combat music, which led it to having this neutral, almost relaxing vibe tonally. There's some darkness in combat #2, but that's about it.

 

Another thing about the combat music is that the tracks lack any remarkable progression in terms of form. They're all based on some sort of rhythmic motive that they keep up near-continuously throughout the track without much change. They're also tonally quite static, repeating the same ostinati, bass patterns, and chord progressions throughout, sometimes melodies dropping in and out. All of this leads to a lack of sense of progression and tension/release. The tracks sort of feel like intros that never go anywhere. 

 

To demonstrate my point about form. This track never really takes the listener anywhere:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EHwOgHlub4

 

This one has a definite sense of progression and feels dynamic, rising tension:

 

EDIT: typos

Edited May 17, 2018 by Multihog

[Skazz]

 

I’d like to use this opportunity to say that I absolutely love the music in Neketaka! It makes me feel so... relaxed. Perfect for a hub.

 

Especially the Queen’s Berth track. Thank you for that piece.

You are most welcome. Curious, how much time percentage wise are you spending in Neketaka?

 

 

Hmm. I'm rather slow when it comes to playing through games, and I'm still rather early into the game, so... I'd say it's been around half of the time logged on the save.

[Justin Bell]

 

I like the white match combat music D:

 

I have to agree about deadfire's combat music being meh though. At least it wasn't offensive to the ear but it could've been much better.

As much as I like the non-combat music, I'll have to agree on this one.

 

The combat music sounds like it's a little bit subdued, afraid to go all out. To me, it seems like the idea was to have a sense of unity between the whole of the OST, so the combat music is kind of trying to stay in line with the non-combat music, which led it to having this neutral, almost relaxing vibe tonally. There's some darkness in combat #2, but that's about it.

 

Another thing about the combat music is that the lacks track any remarkable progression in terms of form. They're all based on some sort of rhythmic motive that they keep up near-continuously throughout the track without much change. They're also tonally quite static, repeating the same ostinati, bass patterns, and chord progressions throughout, sometimes melodies dropping in and out. All of this leads to a lack of sense of progression and tension/release. The tracks sort of feel like intros that never go anywhere.

Yes that was the intent, for better or worse. They're designed to fill the cracks of combat sound design and to be durable over 100 hours of potential gameplay. POE1 combat music was foreground music, PoE2 is decidedly background music.

[yoyolll]

Responding to music parts of the thread... Thanks for all the music feedback folks. Something we haven't really talked about is that the music is reactive in PoE2! It changes depending on whether or not you're sneaking, walking around, or are in a conversation/scripted interaction (the choose your own adventure parts). The idea was to keep it from sounding too static over time.

 

The music is constructed of 3 layers and is additive. Sneaking is just one layer, typically basses, harp, and some accompaniment, and you'll always hear that. Exploration is sneaking + a second layer that includes more accompaniment, countermelodies, and some melodic content. Conversations have all previous layers + another one that is primarily melodic. Transitions between layers aren't instantaneous, and generally only happen at the beginning of new musical phrases. I find it interesting to be able to focus on the different components of a given piece of music.

 

Sneak + explore + conversation is what you hear in the soundtrack, and can be considered the full piece of music. We recorded each section of the orchestra separately to allow for this. Not every track is reactive - combat music isn't - but many are. Even Twin Elms redux is reactive; we re-recorded it just so we can make it reactive!

Hi Justin, just wanted to say that the music is absolutely fantastic!  I have to admit, I was more excited for the soundtrack than the actual game, especially after hearing the music of Pillars 1 and Tyranny.  I hope to hear your work in many games to come.  Keep up the great work!